The little things that add up. (TW)

[easterncappy]

Sorry for making another long post with too many details again. I'm still trying to sort out my feelings and get a lot of things off of my chest. There are a lot of little things that don't deserve a whole thread on their own, but I've never been able to say them out loud (or to other people in writing). Some of them are a bit sensitive so proceed with caution if you want to continue reading. Feel free to share your "little things that don't deserve their own thread but deserve a mention", too.

• My mom once threatened to get a guy at a pizza place fired because he made her pizza with a thin crust... after she ordered it that way. She literally cried about this like I've seen toddlers cry. I tried to calm her down about it and she screamed at me. I tell this story to people who doubt that my mom is really "that crazy"... usually, this story makes them "get it" without getting into anything too gruesome or disturbing. People get a chuckle out of it and I don't have to get angry or sad by remembering worse things or revealing vulnerable parts of myself.

• Their utilities were all in my name until my mid-20's - my mom threw a fit when I finally moved out and told her they can't stay in my name. I drove my mom to and from work every single day from the ages of 19 to 25 - I sacrificed jobs (I could only work weird jobs with weird hours), friendships, internships, college classes, etc.  You have to keep in mind that this is a woman who raised me on a steady diet of suicide threats and temper tantrums if I ever even thought the word "no", and "you owe your family everything and your family should be your God" was like her life motto. My mother would always accuse me of "not wanting to do anything on my own and wanting other people to do things for me" - funny now that I realize it's pure projection.

• It seems like both of them would randomly switch to bullying me for no reason besides what I think was meant to be a power trip, usually this was lead by my dad. Example: I remember getting a monetary gift in the mail from an extended family member, I think I was in my mid-teens. I was really excited about it and told my parents. "Oh, is it not enough for you? You wanted her to send more money?"... I was immediately baffled by my dad saying that. My mom then joined in... "I'm sorry that we don't give you enough money (extremely sarcastically)... I bet you wish we'd write you checks too, huh?". What? I remember being really confused and just going back to my room, I think I cried. None of what they were saying was true or a reflection of how I felt and I don't know why they did that or why my mom joined in on it (she didn't usually speak to me like that unless my dad was around).

• I was my mom's "best friend". She forbade me from playing with other children because "playing with other children will make you grow up to be stupid, and you don't really like playing with those kids, anyway". When I got older, she found a problem with every friend I had. Boyfriends especially were "trying to steal me away" and "brainwashing me against her". When I was 23, she would spam my phone if I wasn't back from hanging out with my friends by a certain time (but I also felt like I "wasn't allowed" to move out - think FOG and just the fact that most people in my culture live with their parents until they're married). And of course, those friends stopped inviting me places because no one wants to hang out with the weird 23 year old whose mom makes them be home by midnight. Oh, and she tracked my location until I was in my mid-20's as well. I knew if I turned it off there would be hell to pay. All of my mom's adult friendships were very short-lived and she always claimed that "they stopped talking to me for no reason", so I guess that's why she needed to be "best friends" with me.

• With "best friends" comes inappropriate boundaries. I remember telling her once that I felt suffocated and controlled (she always prided herself on being better than "controlling parents" who "make their children lie to them by giving them rules and punishments" - although her rules were implied and the punishment for breaking them was suicide threats and temper tantrums). She told me - "What don't I let you do, tell me? You can have sex. You can smoke weed. You can drink. You can have cigarettes. You can do literally anything you want to". But no matter how much "cool" stuff she let me do (and I didn't do most of it or even want to), I wasn't allowed to be my own person, have normal formative experiences, hang out with people my age, detach from her in any meaningful way, etc. The "cool" stuff I did do, I now realize I was way too young to be doing and I'm honestly traumatized by some of it. My mom's response? "You wanted to do it, I don't see the problem, was I supposed to say no?". Yes, you're not supposed to buy your 13 year old tobacco products and use them with her until she gets sick, you're supposed to say "no", what the hell?

• TW sex abuse: When I was 14 years old, my mom suggested we start selling my used underwear on the internet because "a lot of men would pay a lot of money for it". I literally felt like I was going to throw up after she said that, and she didn't understand why I was so uncomfortable. "Okay, fine, we won't do it, but you should think about it...".

• TW sex abuse: When I was in middle and high school, and I had normal teenage girl problems like my crush not texting me back, my mom told me things like "Why don't you send him a picture of your butt? If you don't want to do that, you can keep your underwear on. He'll definitely respond after that!". It's so strange to think that my own mother literally told me to produce and distribute child pornography of myself, and to this day doesn't see what's wrong with it. Or that she thought this would go well for me... or her.

• She had a catchphrase she repeated a lot, it had two versions: "I don't like kids, they're only cute in pictures" and "I don't like kids... except for you!". It always rubbed me the wrong way that she just hated kids. She'd say really ugly things about other people's children and she'd openly wish that terrible things would happen to them, like that they'd get seriously injured while playing. I used to believe this distaste towards children didn't extend to me, but when I think about my childhood, it kind of obviously did. I was only as good as I could fill the roll of an adult-like "best friend", and I felt like I had to shed all of my child-like qualities earlier than was normal to make her happy. Both of my parents made me feel like a huge burden for what I now recognize were age-appropriate feelings and desires of a child.

I'm going to add more tomorrow, probably... there's a lot. Just typing it out and rereading it is therapeutic. A lot of how I realized I was being abused is that I would read things like this online, and realize "huh - that happened to me, too... no wonder I was so uncomfortable". Of course, it's really easy to rationalize it when it happened to you...

[notrightinthehead]

I am so glad you were allowed to go to school. That must have been so enlightening for you to be able to have contact with normal people.

[Leonor]

Hello dear Easterncappy,

One of the most excruciating realizations of my healing journey was the awareness that not only was my mother unwilling to protect me from the sexual abuse of the men in my family, but that she, too, sexually abused me.

Your mom sounds very much on the psychotic end of the mental illness spectrum. That is just so destructive for a little child. Was there anyone in your life who was able to provide you with any sort of love or kindness? The fact that you survived with so much insight and compassion intact is a testament to your strong healing spirit.

There also sounds like a lot is coming up for you right now. Sometimes when trauma survivors start to allow the awareness, their memories start to come up so fast they feel "flooded." That's not only difficult to live through but it's counterproductive.for healing, because your system reacts to the trauma without necessary support or moments of recovery.

There are more and more therapists who specialize in family sexual abuse and how to help survivors come to a place of gentleness and safety in themselves. Do reach out irl for as much help as you can. You don't have to -- it's not kind to -- do this on your own. That's what happened to you as a child, but now you are grown up and can surround yourself with safe, wise, experienced people who can walk beside you through all of this.

Wishing you much care.

[easterncappy]

Hello dear Easterncappy,

One of the most excruciating realizations of my healing journey was the awareness that not only was my mother unwilling to protect me from the sexual abuse of the men in my family, but that she, too, sexually abused me.

Your mom sounds very much on the psychotic end of the mental illness spectrum. That is just so destructive for a little child. Was there anyone in your life who was able to provide you with any sort of love or kindness? The fact that you survived with so much insight and compassion intact is a testament to your strong healing spirit.

There also sounds like a lot is coming up for you right now. Sometimes when trauma survivors start to allow the awareness, their memories start to come up so fast they feel "flooded." That's not only difficult to live through but it's counterproductive.for healing, because your system reacts to the trauma without necessary support or moments of recovery.

There are more and more therapists who specialize in family sexual abuse and how to help survivors come to a place of gentleness and safety in themselves. Do reach out irl for as much help as you can. You don't have to -- it's not kind to -- do this on your own. That's what happened to you as a child, but now you are grown up and can surround yourself with safe, wise, experienced people who can walk beside you through all of this.

Wishing you much care.

Thank you for the reply.

I know I really went into a lot of detail, but it's all just coming back to me now. I'm going to have a baby in 8 weeks and so much is going through my mind. A lot of this was stuff I occasionally thought about but went "meh, today is not the day to dwell on it". But with each "your dad is so excited to be a grandfather", "we're going to visit you in the hospital after you give birth" (and then getting angry if I don't sound excited about it), and "I can't wait for your daughter to spend weekends with us" comment, another instance of why that's absolutely not going to happen pops into my mind. I almost want to sit her down before the baby is born and tell her very explicitly what she did wrong, why a lot of it was outright illegal, and why it means she is not allowed anywhere near my baby (but it wouldn't do anything - I suggested it to my husband this morning and he said "you know she would just get angry and make you feel even worse if you did that, she will never accept that she did anything wrong"). And it's also making me freak out because if someone ever told my daughter to like, produce child pornography of herself in an attempt to flirt with another minor, I would be going to jail that day for what I'd do to the person who dared to suggest that - why did my mother not feel that kind of protectiveness over me? Having this kid is really putting into perspective just how bad everything was.

I've never heard her described as psychotic before. I am going to try to find a therapist and I've been thinking about it for a while, hopefully something is covered by my insurance. I didn't really have anyone to make me feel safe growing up. We moved to another country when I was little, so no contact with extended family, and we briefly lived with my grandmother - who is like my mom times 100. To be honest, she was worse to me than my mom was. But the whole family is like this, really, at least the ones I know anything about. It's a part of what makes me doubt that I was really abused. If everyone in my family grew up to marry someone like this, and most of the kids grew up being neglected or abused, maybe it's normal and I'm just a crybaby. I know that's not logically true and that people usually marry those with the same problems they saw growing up, but it really makes me think I'm the bad guy.

Sorry for rambling. :/

[Leonor]

Dear Easterncappy,

Oh you are going to be such a lovely loving mamma! There are many new and about to be mommies here at Out of the FOG, and many veteran mommas too.

It's also very normal that these memories and feelings come up as you are creating your own little family. It's a time of beautiful change, but enormous change, and you deserve all the support in the world.

I always love hearing from mommies to be because you're about to fall madly, besottedly in love!! But you know, you'll be tired a lot too. And hormones. It's a joyful exhausting emotional topsy turvy time.

There's so much in your post that speaks to how amazing you are, what wisdom and insight you have, and how you will just be a darling, doting mommy. Yes, do find a trauma therapist. It's the first step you can take to charting a clear, safe, loving path for you and your little family!

You're not being selfish or a crybaby. You're gaining clarity. You're ending the cycle. Seeking help is a brave thing to do. Showing your little one what safety and support and strength look like is not cowardly or mean spirited.

Call your insurance company. If you're in the US, you might talk to a behavioral health nurse for a screening. I'm pretty sure with your history, you'll definitely qualify for a referral. If not, talk to your GP or OBGYN (you will not be the first mommy to talk to someone about this.) Talk to the hospital maternity nurses. Talk and talk until you get a referral for trauma therapy with a therapist who works with incest survivors and who is a kind and wise person that you connect with.

[easterncappy]

Needed to get some things off of my chest this morning.

Before I figured out that my family is pretty much entirely bad (personality disorders + generational trauma, people marrying into more PD and trauma, etc.), I used to think my mom and grandma were innocent bystanders, victims of the evil men they married. When I was really little, we moved to the US, and my grandma lived with us for a couple of years. She was always cold and mean to me, but it didn't really occur to me that this was the case until I was an adult and went "huh - I think she just didn't like me" (and my mom's stories of her childhood also scream "she just didn't like you that much" but my mom doesn't view it that way).

Anyway, I remember talking to someone I used to be friends with about how my grandma "protected me from my dad" once. When I was in elementary school, my dad was throwing one of his signature drunken fits (throwing things, breaking furniture, screaming, threatening us, etc.) and my grandma started throwing things too and asking him "do you like when I do that?". The person I was talking to looked at me like I was crazy and said "uhh... is anyone in your family normal, or are they all violent weirdos?". It had never occurred to me that my grandma's reaction was abnormal, too. It was kind of humbling - it made me realize just how much I was used to that wasn't justifiable. It turns out that normal people remove any children from the situation while it's going on, and then make serious plans to get themselves and the children away from people who behave like that permanently... they don't repeat the behavior back just to do nothing about it in the long run.

Another thing I wanted to share is that last night I went to pick something up from my mom's house (I'm trying to make it so that I don't have to come back there anymore after my baby is born). My husband is going on a trip with his dad for a couple of days, so I'll be home alone for a few nights. My mom asked "can we come over when he's gone?" - my mom still thinks that my husband is some sort of malicious, evil person who is unfairly keeping my away from my Family™, apparently this is common when adult children start separating from their PD parents. I asked her who "we" is, because I'm fine with planned visits with her, but that I've been telling her for the greater part of a decade that I don't want her creepy husband to be a part of my life when possible.

"Does... this mean you won't let him near your daughter?". I told her that obviously, I don't want a perverted alcoholic child molester with violent tendencies near my daughter. She damn well knows about all of the abuse, she just pretends it's not that bad with various weirdo justifications. I told her I've been telling her this for a long time now. "Oh... okay...".

I thought she was "doing good" for a couple of weeks now. Again, this was humbling. It's easy for me to push these feelings and thoughts aside because she can be fun and pleasant and I do still love her, like all human beings I'm simply programmed to. She knows about the abuse. I thought she found out when we had "that talk" when I was 17, but she always knew. And she acts shocked by the fact that I'm not willing to make another innocent little girl go through that. What the hell, seriously? Why would I do that to my baby?

Like the time my mom said "I talked to him about it and he said he won't do it again, okay?" with the sex abuse (that I was too little to understand was sex abuse). As if it was all a misunderstanding, he didn't know what he was doing, and the only issue is that it made me a little uncomfy. Now I know that I'd be in jail in under half an hour if my toddler ever described being sexually abused to me in little kid terms, too young to even know what it is. It's all rushing back to me because I'm a mom now and I just can't wrap my mind around someone being able to do this to a baby. I don't know how a mom can react in any way besides protecting her baby at all costs when finding out about this. And then to demand that the abuser is allowed to do it again to her grandchild. Vile.

[NarcKiddo]

They are SO good at noticing when your defences are weakening, aren't they? I recently was having a discussion with my therapist about the anger I hold for my mother. We've had the inevitable chat about whether I acknowledge that she, too, had a bad upbringing. I got snarky with the therapist about that and she was fine - explaining that she didn't mean I should forgive or forget, just that maybe the acknowledgement would mean I could hold less anger. We came to the conclusion together that perhaps the anger is a necessary part of my protection - the heightened stress around her is very unhelpful if it is fear, as it was for so long. The anger at least means I am able to protect me and will find the strength to fight back if I have to.

But, like you, I would in an ideal world like to like her company. I'd like her to be nice and caring and kind, even if it's in a sort of damaged way due to her upbringing. So whenever she appears to be improving I simply have to remember that she actually isn't. She can't. Not truly. And even so I fall for the improvement more often than I'd like. Ugh. I know where you're coming from. Hugs.

[moglow]

Easterncappy, I read this and i want to smack something for you. I'd be right there in that jail cell with you, believe me. Reading how your mother "best friended" you as a little kid, made you somehow responsible for her and her poor choices rather than looking after and teaching you to care for yourself - it hurts my heart for you. Not only would I not be willing to let my child go stay with them at any point in the foreseeable future, dear husb being out of town would not open my door to them. Maybe meet them for lunch or dinner, then your home is your castle. Gates are up and there are alligators in the moat.


You've got hormones running sideways right now, more vulnerable than usual for obvious reasons. I don't know that I'd take on the battle and tell her no, but you can hedge. Avoid. Change the subject. Morning/afternoon sickness, ya know - It's unpredictable and sometimes you just gotta go. I wouldn't want her/their excuses or promises of changed behavior, you have history there and it's not good. I'd have to see and experience actual changed behavior and that would take time and limited exposure - that does not involve them inviting themselves in on me while my husband was gone. I'd want him and his eyes and his input right there with me while I worked through this.

I'll mama bear you through this, we all will. I'm that growl you feel over your shoulder. Use it and be well.

[easterncappy]

Thank you both. I am still alternating between being angry and sad and I've been distracting myself by re-organizing my kitchen. I might not be making too much sense. I appreciate both of your inputs and advice.

A part of me wants to take her out one day, in a public place (to minimize the potential of a ridiculous outburst from her - it's been a while, but when it happens, it's bad), and ask her why she thought it was a good idea to bring my daughter around a person she knows sexually abuses children. Like I want to hear her explanation of why this would ever be acceptable. But I'm not going to do it because it'd just made me more angry and sad and it wouldn't actually fix anything. There's never going to be a "what have I done?" moment from her. It'll just be more excuses and abuse. After all, it's "trendy to make up stories about being sexually abused".

Could she be a sociopath or psychopath? I feel like human beings are born with a desire to punish child abusers and protect children. I feel like that's just a universal thing. I get angry thinking about it happening to other people, too. The complete lack of empathy/sympathy for me and other children and victims of abuse is just... not something I've ever experienced before (except in one sorta-ex-boyfriend who they really wanted me to marry, who blamed the sex abuse on "your dad was probably really drunk and doesn't remember it and didn't mean it" - coincidence?).

It didn't occur to me that they want to come over when my husband isn't around because they know I'd be more vulnerable. I thought it was just because they thought he was the Worst Person Ever (which they do think) and that he's the one putting all of these silly ideas in my head about how they're bad people and how I was abused and how they need to stay away... even though, as I'm sure all of you can tell, that's not the case. He's disgusted by my parents based on what I've told him, but I came into our relationship already being aware of what my childhood was like and what kind of people my parents are. I'm a big girl and I can think for myself. But there was one huge perk to being with him early on, which is that he developed strong boundaries after getting away from his own highly dysfunctional family, so he absolutely wouldn't put up with them trying anything.

It's insane to me how they both think nothing is wrong, and that they can just talk their way around my boundaries, but the plan for my dad ever showing up is to hide with the baby, call the police, and have my husband go out and make him leave. Yes, the level of violence and instability I've seen from my dad really is this bad. But my mom thinks he's safe for little girls. Again... just vile.

[moglow]

Imma be smartass Mo for just a sec, so bear with me: It's also "trendy" to cut people off who consistently cause us harm and with whom we don't want a relationship. Dad, that one's for you. And I'm sorry but if mom keeps defending and making excuses, it can extend from there. You can limit those relationships to whatever level you need and you don't have to explain it to anyone. Including them, if I may be blunt about it. She KNEW about the abuse, long before you told her, that's what grinds with me. Yes, she may have felt caught between the devil and the deep blue sea and didn't know what to do but she.knew and she didn't stop it. Didn't remove you/him from the situation.

I wouldn't say they realize you're more vulnerable without DH there, but they don't visit when he's there, is that correct? To throw this idea out there knowing he'll be gone, doesn't endear me to them. I know I don't have to be but seriously. What's to stop them showing up next time DH is gone, thinking they're welcome? I'm just suggesting you not open that door unless/until you're ready. It doesn't sound like you are right now.

[easterncappy]

Imma be smartass Mo for just a sec, so bear with me: It's also "trendy" to cut people off who consistently cause us harm and with whom we don't want a relationship. Dad, that one's for you. And I'm sorry but if mom keeps defending and making excuses, it can extend from there. You can limit those relationships to whatever level you need and you don't have to explain it to anyone. Including them, if I may be blunt about it. She KNEW about the abuse, long before you told her, that's what grinds with me. Yes, she may have felt caught between the devil and the deep blue sea and didn't know what to do but she.knew and she didn't stop it. Didn't remove you/him from the situation.

I wouldn't say they realize you're more vulnerable without DH there, but they don't visit when he's there, is that correct? To throw this idea out there knowing he'll be gone, doesn't endear me to them. I know I don't have to be but seriously. What's to stop them showing up next time DH is gone, thinking they're welcome? I'm just suggesting you not open that door unless/until you're ready. It doesn't sound like you are right now.

Yes, I'm trying to limit them. It's just figuring out how to do it gets frustrating. I barely ever call or visit anymore. Then my mom acts nice for a while and I get drawn back into pushing the abuse to the back of my mind, because she's funny and pleasant six days out of the week. Then she does something insane like acting offended that I won't let a child molester near a baby or threatening to commit suicide over something silly. And the cycle repeats. Getting the tough love treatment on here helps a lot. I think I'm doing everything right and it turns out I'm still giving in and being a doormat. It gets better but man, it's a lot of work and so much to be aware of constantly. I can't keep up with all of it while also getting my house ready for a baby and everything else that's going on.

They don't even mention visiting when he's here. My mom used to want to do things with him and force a relationship, but he saw right through her and didn't want to waste his time trying to get along with someone who, well... let all of that happen to me. Which I understood, I'm very glad she hasn't been able to cause (much) trouble between us... we also don't visit with his mom, who is a different kind of coo coo. Mutual understanding of what it's like to be from a bad family. I think my mom is threatened by how strong his boundaries are with his family and how distant he is from them. She also thinks he's stolen me away or whatever. Tension between them but her side of the story is all wrong and delusional.

[Cat of the Canals]

Agree 1000% with moglow. FWIW, my PDmil is plainly more abusive and manipulative when she's alone with my husband. She seems to think that if I'm not around, "control" over him reverts to her.

Even if she could be trusted to be on her best behavior, you don't need any more reason to not see her than "I don't want to."

I can't keep up with all of it while also getting my house ready for a baby and everything else that's going on.

Then don't. Stop managing your mom. Let your baby be the excuse to finally start putting you and your family of choice first. That's how it's suppose to work, frankly.

And from now on, when mom threatens suicide, tell her, "If this is for real, I'm hanging up and calling the police."

Sorry if this sounds too "tough love." I truly don't mean it that way. I know how hard it is to break out of the old patterns. And honestly, it sounds like you've been doing an amazing job of establishing boundaries and sticking to them. Making it clear right off the bat that her husband isn't allowed around your baby is HUGE given the amount of insane gaslighting she still seems to use on you.