How do I know I'm not the narcissist? (that old paradox)

[no1schild]

Hello all. I'm new here. I appreciate you all and the support you offer one another. I have been reading about all of your experiences and the guidance provided by others, and this is the most helpful place I've witnessed for these types of issues.
I see similar family dynamics being played out in my own experiences with my in-laws, and yet I'm here with the same insecurity, ruminating day after day to the point of exhaustion. I've read books and seen therapists, tried my best to research and understand my PDMIL. I've been told by therapists that she exhibits narcissistic traits and everything I've read seems to confirm. I feel more validated and educated than I have been for over a decade, and yet that same question is always there...how do I know I'm not the narcissist? I feel the only way for you to get a picture is to have the details. I'm sorry, it's a lot.

Backstory...
My DH and I met when we were 15 and have now been married for almost 12 years (together for 19 years). So, my MIL and FIL were literal parent-figures when I was still just a kid. I come from trauma in my FOO and have always (though unknowingly) been sensitive (hypervigilant?) to toxicity in others as a result. From a young age, I felt disliked by my now in-laws. But, being 15 and craving acceptance, I was polite, quiet, and took my MIL's snarky remarks in stride. As the years passed, I started to really notice how toxic she really is. I noticed other people feeling the same way. I realized I didn't agree with her condescending nature, politics, manipulation of religion to suit her needs, chronic talking, etc. As I matured into a young adult, my annoyance with her personality gradually grew into disgust for her skewed values and belief system. Still, I played nice and quiet. I had a feeling she didn't care for me once she caught on to my more liberal views, which she detests. There were a few times in my college years when I thought we were having honest-to-God "educational discourse" over our differing views on social inequality, only to find out later it was a "fight" in her mind. Then again, I told myself I was probably just feeling insecure due to my issues with parent figures in my FOO.

*quick back-backstory--My bio father is a drug abuser who abused my mother almost to the point of death. He never cared about my ideas or feelings. I now see he was incapable of doing so, but obviously as a child, that had some serious affects on my self-worth. My former stepfather (married to my mom from the time I was 3-23) was PD (bipolar, untreated). He was a pathological liar and his outbursts scared my mother and us kids. He completed suicide. I was, according to therapists, a parentified child: a confidant of my mother (who I do believe was doing her best with the limited tools she had), often caring for younger siblings, and always felt the need to be aware of how everyone was feeling/ coping/ not coping so I could fix it.

Anyway, it felt like a switch was flipped once my DH and I became engaged. My MIL tried to talk my DH into waiting a year "just to see how things were" (we'd been together for seven years). My DH and I bought a house 6 months before our wedding, which we moved into. It needed work, so it was easier that way for one thing. But also,  I was fresh out of grad school with no job. My mother had filed bankruptcy and we lost our family home. This was devastating for us all. My mom moved in with a boyfriend I didn't know well at the time, and there was literally nowhere else for me to go. My DH and I didn't hesitate to welcome my younger brother to live with us, even though we would be newlyweds, because he had nowhere to go either as a broke college student. My MIL went ballistic about this decision to live together. This is when I first became aware of her talking about me behind my back (in hindsight, I'm sure it happened often before). She told others in the family how her son "wasn't raised that way" and so I had been a bad influence. I had nowhere to live and he would be my husband in 6 months, so yes, he put a roof over my head. She was so ashamed of us "living in sin" even though her other two older children were obviously sexually active with SOs (just not publicly sharing a house). The double-standard baffled me. And after that, it seemed like every little thing I did became offensive. I was expected to include her in every step of wedding planning, and if I didn't I was "hurting her feelings." When we were around her, if felt like she was pouting during this time of our life that was supposed to be fun and special. There were even times when I let go of what I wanted to take her advice instead, just to make her feel better. It was never enough. After the wedding, I was told my behavior was "tacky" for shoving cake in my DH's face (sorry not sorry, it was fun). She said "maybe her birth control or antidepressants make her crazy."

Now, there's a lot of baggage with just that statement that I won't get into. But to summarize--I had turned to her as a friend during one of my low times (depression and anxiety with panic attacks). I confided in her, during which time she convinced me to stop taking my mental health meds. She told me "those drugs are going to hurt you and they are bad for you. They just make you numb and you're not used to feeling sad because of that. Once you have real feelings again, you will see it's normal and healthy." My FIL is a chiropractor and they own their own business (which she micromanages with no real education or experience to back up). They are completely anti-medication/ anti-medical everything---all problems can be solved by prayer and chiropractic in their view). I was very ill and trusted her, so I listened and stopped my meds cold turkey. At which point I became increasingly ill. It took me several years to get sort-of back on track with my health.

In the early years of our marriage, I felt like I always had to be under the radar. I wanted my in-laws to like me. DH and I usually just went along with whatever their wishes were for holidays, vacations, etc. One of our first arguments was when my MIL asked to see our bank statements and we said no. You see, my FIL makes a lot of money. A lot. They always have the best and newest of things. My SIL and BIL both went into the family business, and so they also make a lot of money. She told us "your sister (my SIL) talks about finances with us. It's a sign of maturity." She also literally wrote out my BIL's checks, managed his bank account and paid his bills for him until he was married at age 35. We still declined to share finances.

My DH almost followed the family business, but only because he didn't know what to do at that point in his life. He showed an interest in his current field while we both attended community college, and I encouraged him to pursuit it. There was a college close by that had the program he needed, but MIL insisted he go to the college she wanted (four hours away from me). She said distance "would be good for us." I don't think she saw how he and I were each other's support system in so many ways. I feel like she was hoping he'd meet someone with the "right pedigree" during that time, but we never faltered as a couple and were married two years later.

Things came to a head when DH and I became parents. I was working full-time and was careful and paranoid about splitting up babysitting times equally between my mother and MIL so she wouldn't be upset. If it wasn't equal, she would almost always make a remark. But when I would ask for help, she would always make it a point to give me the litany of busy things she had going on whilst she managed to squeeze in time with my baby who I missed desperately while at work, She spoke openly about our choices she disagreed with. I remember as I lay in my hospital bed shortly after giving birth, MIL and FIL came to see the baby, which she immediately greeted as "her baby." As the doctor started explaining vaccinations for the baby, my MIL interrupted her and told her "we don't vaccinate, that's poison, that's made of aborted babies." My doctor just stared at her and then turned back to DH and me and started talking again. It was mortifying. She didn't give up easily on that one...she also placed literature concerning babies killed by vaccines on our doorstep and texted us articles and called my husband, sobbing, saying "she would be praying" for our baby, as if we had given him narcotics instead of immunizations. She said she and FIL "don't believe in the germ theory." She became irate when my husband and I explained the science behind vaccines (and that germs are in fact a proven thing). She was offended by our information and said we "jumped on her and didn't give her time to prepare", when (for some reason) we thought we were just engaging in a normal conversation.

I was very ill with my second pregnancy. At 30 weeks, I was on bedrest due to my blood pressure. My MIL knew how sick I was, but showed no sympathy or concern. Turning down a family vacation was like a smack in the face to her on any occasion, regardless of whether or not someone was ill. She even was angry at me once because I turned down a trip so I wouldn't fail grad school. I remember at 36 weeks in my pregnancy, I said I could not travel 3 hours away to join her and my SILs and kids to go to a water park with my 1 year old (my DH would be working). She coldly replied that "if it were my SIL, she would go." Mind, this SIL had no children and had never been pregnant, let alone high-risk. I was deeply hurt by the comparison, and this was the first of many times I've been compared. She also told me this SIL (no kids at the time) could handle taking four kids on a walk better than me, because I "couldn't handle chaos." I wouldn't say I like chaos, but I think that's because it was my childhood and I'm very aware of all it entails. (Funny side note: I actually do have 4 kids now and we go on walks regularly lol). 

Around this time, my husband had been promoted. He's the only one out of his siblings who was totally self-made, as the others walked into a successful family business with an education totally funded by their parents. It wasn't the career or path my MIL would have chosen for him, and she had still not given up on him going into the family field at this time. However, my DH was successful and happy in his field. It was a huge deal and he had worked hard. During the ceremony, the spouses and families were to join the firemen and place their pin for promotion (he's a fire chief). My MIL had asked to hold my son immediately (she always takes him from me right away, never noticing how he might feel overwhelmed in a crowded room and need a second). I hesitantly handed him to her and politely said, "Just so you know, DH would like me to bring him up front when it's time for the families to go up." I was going to explain how he wanted him up there for that special moment. But she interrupted, as she often does and snapped, "Oh yeah, he's your baby...don't worry, we all know he's your baby." I was totally taken aback and felt like I had been slapped in the face. I never talked back, but I said, "well you always address him as your baby, so I just wanted to make sure you knew"...the ceremony begins and I try my best to focus on my husband. There was a small gathering after, and she caught me alone and said something about how her comment "wasn't meant to be offensive." I calmly told her that I was offended, and that I was often offended by things she said, and that I wasn't going to discuss this at this time because this was DH's night. I walked away and she just stared at me, dumbfounded. I did my best to keep all this from DH, because I wanted him to enjoy this special time, but by the time we got home, he could tell I was upset. He wanted to know what had happened and so I told him. He comforted me, but said nothing to his parents.

The next day, my FIL came over when I was home alone, knowing DH would be at work. He and I had typically got along fine. He is 100% a flying monkey. He listened to what I had to say, and seemed to empathize. I had witnessed MIL walking all over him for close to a decade, and knew he got it on some level. His advice to me was: "It's easy to get along with her. You just have to agree with everything she says."
She came over after FIL had softened me (I see now, she would often send FIL first). I don't recall her ever apologizing in any way, but somehow she dragged a lot of personal information out of me. I started talking about things from my own childhood, abusive situations--things I don't talk about with many people. Looking back, I feel like I was trying to justify why I was "rude." Now, I feel like I was setting boundaries that at the time felt "Rude" because doing so was a foreign concept to me. I was making excuses for taking care of myself. We only talked about me and my "issues", never addressing her behavior or tone.

I tend to either overshare with others or totally block them out, and in this case I had overshared. I somehow confused this as reconciliation when really it had nothing to do with MIL and me. It was like I was telling myself, "Oh, you've put trust in this person and that makes them trustworthy. People like to be trusted and so now she'll like you." How messed up. I think deep down I knew what was happening was toxic and my body knew too. I was physically ill after this series of confrontations. My anxiety at its worse induces panic attacks and vomiting. Less than a week later, I had an emergency induction for my pregnancy. Both my health and the baby's were at risk due to my blood pressure and pre-eclampsia. This baby is now 6 yo, and he experiences developmental delays, sensory processing issues, and other challenges. I always feel this is a result of the circumstances of his birth and the way I allowed MIL to poison my health in that delicate stage. My son is who he is and I love him completely, but I have such guilt, anger, and resentment toward both her and myself.

DH and I were preparing to build a house at the time, and FIL and MIL invited us to live with them to save money. I didn't want to. I told her I did not want to. I told DH I did not want to, but he wanted to save money. DH hadn't been first-hand witness to much of her outbursts with me. I see now, she was careful (skilled?) about that. Because DH didn't seem to grasp the abusive nature I felt coming at me, I had this notion that most of it really was either in my head or my fault completely, and I trusted DH's judgment. I don't blame him. I see now DH had a defense mechanism to grey rock with her before I even knew the term, though I think he does this as an instinct. He seems to be able to just let it all roll of his back, because that's how he survived growing up. But, his ability to do so lead me to think that I was being overly sensitive and analytical. Turns out, living with them was the worst choice we've ever made.

MIL travels often. She vacations at least once a month, if not more. If she's not traveling, she's shopping or spending money some other way. But, the time she was home was enough. I am an introvert and need time to recharge, time to myself. She is a chronic talker. The type who will ask you a question, but then continue to talk over you before you can answer. She also seems only capable of small talk, which I personally am not good at and do not enjoy. Being around her casually was draining for me. Despite doing my best, I was called rude for spending so much time in their basement where we stayed. I also had two children under the age of 2, and if I didn't include her in all of my mothering tasks throughout the day, I was being possessive. Truthfully, I just really love being a mom and taking care of my kids.

One day, we had a disagreement about my son. I was upset that my SILs older child had continued to push him around and I didn't want to leave them unattended. This insulted my MIL, who favors my SIL as the golden child, and as an extension, favors her children. When I refused to leave the kids to play alone, MIL told me she wanted to talk to me alone (DH was at work). She pulled me into a room and began the conversation with an accusation in a harsh tone: "I don't know WHY you don't like me?!" I said, "I feel like I could ask you that question." The Sh*t hit the fan from there. She went on and on about how much she has done for me, how she has "treated me with nothing but kindness". She said that I was "trying to keep DH from his family." I broke all the JADE rules (not having those tools at the time). I explained the efforts I felt I had made, how I was actually the one who tried to include DHs family in my kids' lives. I told her of all the hurtful things I had become aware of that she had said about me over the years. She didn't know I knew about her gossip and was flustered that she had no plan to gaslight me. There was a lot of screaming on both ends until I finally walked out. I was pregnant at the time (no one knew except DH and myself), and I was literally feeling ill. As I walked away she said, "Go ahead, walk out. That's what you always do." As I continued to walk away to get my children and leave, she screamed, "I said I'm sorry! Now you have to apologize! Take responsibility and apologize!" I tried to explain that it wasn't a good time for either of us to apologize. I said, "You're still angry and so am I..." and she cut me off and called me judgmental. I just meant to say that such apologies couldn't possibly be genuine and we needed to cool down, but I can never finish a thought.

After this verbally abusive encounter, I left with the kids for a couple days. We had a conversation on the phone that I honestly don't remember much about. There was more yelling, more justifying on both ends. She talked again about my mental health issues. I think it ended up kind of like the other incident, where we focused the convo on MY issues (without her owning any of her own), felt we had reached a place of intimate sharing, and so that was good enough for reconciling. I also don't remember where my husband was during all of this...for so long, he sympathized with me but never spoke directly to his parents.

About a week later, when I was back at their house, we told them we were pregnant. It seemed, at the time, like a way to share in something happy and put the ugly behind us. But, I was still horribly anxious and angry, and the next week, I had a miscarriage. I felt like I was being punished for my anger, that it was my fault for once again allowing my mental health to hurt my physical health, and again, my unborn child. Upon hearing the news of our miscarriage, MIL said "I don't think your other sons wanted another sibling yet anyway." She didn't hug or comfort my DH at all. She and FIL left for a vacation the next day. I was unwell physically and mentally, and my SIL and mother came to help with my children while DH was at work.

One morning, after MIL had returned, I heard her talking down to DH as he was on his way out the door for work. She acted like she was trying to make time to help us move into our house, like it was such an inconvenience to her and she called our hard-earned possessions "crap". Despite her aggressive tone and mean words, DH kept quiet and just left for work. I came up the stairs, just waking up, as she stood in the living room on the phone with FIL. She told him that DH had "bitten her head off" when she had "only been trying to help." This wasn't even remotely true, but I ignored it. Once she noticed I was nearby, she tried to look calm and said "DH is mad at me, but..." I didn't allow her the next words, because they would be lies. I told her we would not be needing her help and that I had heard the whole conversation and that the way she treated DH was not kind. FIL was home by now, and he agreed that what she said to DH was not kind, which really pissed MIL off.

I explained to both of them that they weren't showing DH any compassion for what we had just been through with the miscarriage, and that DH is hurting too. At least, I think I tried to say something like that. MIL interrupted between every word until I reached the point where I was raising my voice because I just wanted to be heard for once. I wanted to speak, to have a voice, to have even a little value. Once I yelled, my FIL (usually calm), waved me away like I was a dog and said, "we're done with you." I said, "I'm not healthy enough to do this," I went to get my children to leave (they were still asleep downstairs). The whole time, hearing the two of them say "she's unappreciative, ungrateful...DH can get over stuff. She's the one who can't...see what I have to put up with...I know they have a lot going on, but we all do." My FIL stormed back downstairs without knocking to see if I was getting dressed or anything and said, "this is our house and you shouldn't forget that." They left shortly after this, and I packed everything I could in one suitcase and took my children and left. I spent the next two weeks in bed. My anxiety was so severe, coupled with what was probably post-partum depression, that I couldn't keep any food down. I felt like I couldn't move. Couldn't sleep. Couldn't bear to be around my children who deserved a happier, healthier mom. DH was hurting, too, but kept it to himself mostly. He went to work and came home and helped with the kids. MIL and FIL were planning to leave for a vacation and wanted to "resolve" things before they left, meaning they didn't want it to dampen their time. I physically could not interact with them. DH tried to explain how this wasn't the time and how unwell I was. They believed I was putting it on and that things "would get worse the longer this went on." DH and I both turned 30 in the couple days this all coincided. She asked if we wanted birthday presents. We didn't. They ended up going on their trip and trying to text DH while there, sending pictures and such. DH made comment that they "couldn't just pretend everything was okay when it wasn't." MIL attacked him for that comment, saying how wrong it was for him to not allow her to communicate and how she "had a dark cloud" over her head for her whole vacation and would need therapy for the things I said to her (she doesn't actually believe in therapy).

I started to gain some physical strength back by the time we moved into our new home. This should have been one of the happiest days of our life. We had worked so hard to build this home for our children. My depression was so severe, despite being back on appropriate medication, that I would randomly start crying throughout the day. I was weak and had lost a lot of weight. I hated myself. Two months later, we heard from MIL. She asked if she should return our birthday gifts from a couple months before. DH texted that we would accept the gifts. I didn't know he was saying this, or I would have objected. I wanted nothing from them. I was also so ill, I don't think I was able to intervene. They wanted to see our finished home, and DH invited them. I spent the whole day prior to their visit in bed, taking Ativan, to avoid a panic attack. When they came in, my MIL said nothing to us. My FIL sat down by me and said "we could have handled some things better." I was on the verge of a panic attack, and whispered something like, "We just want to move on with our life." In my mind, I meant without you, without any of this, but of course I couldn't say that. My MIL burst into tears and said, "that's what we want to!" She thought I meant, put it all behind us. So, no apology, no true reconciliation, no acknowledgement of any kind.

For a time, things went on awkwardly. Minimal contact. I didn't trust them with my heart, and so I wouldn't trust them with my children. All visits were as a family, and DH was okay with this. Eventually, I became pregnant with our 3rd child, which was also a difficult pregnancy. I relied on others DH and I had trusted as a support system. I didn't want to put my or the baby's health anywhere near MILs toxicity and my failure to deal with it well. I sensed a lot of resentment from MIL for this. She was used to being very involved with her other grandchildren, and continued to ask to babysit as we continued to politely decline. She once asked if she and FIL could take our kids alone to do some things, and we also politely declined. She started a dispute about this, but we didn't engage. When it came to my due date, MIL and FIL scheduled a trip to Disneyland with their other grandchildren. We continued to keep them at arm's length, largely giving in for birthdays and holidays at their discretion.

This survival mode went on for awhile. Any time we went to their house, I felt like I was having those feelings of when we lived there. The feeling of being abused that I also recognize from my childhood. I usually had to medicate before any interaction with them. I had read about grey rock method by now, and tried to do it. But, I felt her eyes burning through me, like I was being standoffish, and I just felt like no matter what I did, she would have something to add to her smear campaign. I felt incredibly self-conscious around my SILs and BILs, not knowing what they believed of me. Honestly, lockdown was a relief in this way. I liked having a legit reason to be away from them all. Except, DH and I were also shamed for that. MIL and FIL believe Covid is a "hoax", a ploy put on for politics. They didn't believe in masks or vaccines or taking any extra precautions with traveling or gatherings. They believed all measures DH and I took to keep us and our children (I was pregnant with baby #4) were nonsensical. Despite the fact that DH dealt/ deals with Covid regularly for his job, they always seemed to know more. Even when a close family member died Christmas Eve due to a collapsed lung after being hospitalized with Covid for a week, they denied the seriousness. This was an added strain to an already stressful holiday with them...

Every Christmas, DH and I felt rushed around trying to do all the plans. MIL always made DH travel over holidays as a child, and he didn't like that or want that for his children. I always had to visit my father, stepfather's family, and mother's family, and it was a lot. We both decided we want that day for just our family. We want to stay in our jammies all day, enjoy treats and toys, make a meal of everyone's favorite things, and just be together. We had asked two years in a row if we could celebrate with extended family on a day other than Christmas. Both years, MIL catered to what my SIL preferred. This particular year, we asked again if we could do it another day and it seemed like it might actually happen. DH even took a vacation day to reserve it for his extended family Christmas. Then, a couple weeks before MIL casually tells us SIL is coming Christmas Eve and we're doing it Christmas day. DH and I explained our disappointment and how we felt no one asked us our preference once again. DH is the only one who is not a doctor, and the only one who does not dictate his own schedule. It seemed like our wishes were always at the bottom of the totem pole, and that didn't seem fair as we were the ones with small children and had been patient. We informed MIL that after this year, we would be staying home Christmas day as a family.

This decision lead to a whole slew of nasty arguments. Once again, I didn't know JADE then. Wish I had. We were told we are selfish, and that family is what's important. When we countered with our belief that it's not the day that matters as long as we're together, that didn't fly. MIL told us our children would prefer to spend Christmas at her house. She told DH he was "losing his family." She said they would have it on Christmas and it would be our fault that our children missed out. Said we were inflexible, to which we said "there are 364 other days in the year you aren't even willing to talk about." Christmas Eve rolls around and I wake to hearing MIL screaming over the phone to DH. She told him repeatedly, "I don't respect your choice. I don't respect it." She talks in circles and repeats herself for a good 30 minutes. Then DH did something I've never personally heard him do: He spoke up. He said it calmly a few times only to be talked over, and finally, he did what I had often found myself doing to be heard and raised his voice. He explained, "From now on, I will be spending Christmas with my family, mother. My wife and my kids. We know you don't understand it, and that's fine. But that is what's happening." And on the other end of the phone, silence. Also, a first.

The gathering that year was not warm, to say the least. MIL did not acknowledge me at all. Wouldn't address me or look at me. I only went over for my children, but now I regret it. She didn't even watch the kids open the way too excessive amount of gifts she wanted them to have so badly (she overbuys for everyone, because she can). Instead, she talked about how she wished Trump would "nuke China while he still has time". She often talks about politics in front of me, knowing we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. DH and I left as quickly as we could, but the drama wasn't over. She continued to be cold, resentful, occasionally giving us the silent treatment.

I felt unsettled about the Christmas situation, because I realized the extended family only heard her side of the story. This was typical, as DH and I never go to his siblings after a conflict. We don't feel we need the validation and SIL is an enabler. We also just don't play those games. MIL ALWAYS goes to the extended family when there's a conflict "for support." But this time, DH and I asked SIL if we could talk to clear the air. During this conversation, SIL brought up many things from the past ten years that were obviously words from MIL mouth. SIL lives 7 hours away and doesn't even witness events she was bringing up. She said DH should take the kids over to see his mom even if I don't want to go. DH explained we make all those decisions together, and that it's not just me calling the shots. She said I was disrespectful to MIL and that DH should have told me to stop talking to her the way I do. I calmly explained that I wasn't cruel, but that I did disagree with MIL, and she seems to think anyone who disagrees with her is being mean even though that's not the same thing. In the end, SIL stated that MIL has "given up" on us. The following Christmas we actually did travel 7 hours to spend Christmas (on a different day) with SIL and her family. We were happy with the day and she was happy not to travel for once. MIL and FIL were supposed to come...but they got Covid...and we all had a really nice time!

And that's where my story is now...

Since then, it has felt like one long silent treatment. She almost never engages with me. I invite her to kids' birthdays and we see each other around holidays (although she has made more of a habit of traveling over holidays, and on our birthdays for that matter). When she does speak to me, it's short "yes" and "no". I feel like I'm being grey-rocked. She speaks to DH more, but still not much and always about trivial things via text. There was one text out of the blue a few months ago that said to me, "I just want to say I'm sorry for all the pain I caused you. So sorry." I felt like puking, because it was out of nowhere and because I don't think that apology comes even close to what it should be...she doesn't even know the extent of the pain, the tears, the sickness, the mental games, the therapy, the self-hate. It almost pissed me off more to hear such a weak apology. I said, "I appreciate you saying that." She told me she was "reevaluating her life and getting closer to God." I said nothing back because to me, that seems like it really wasn't about our relationship after all. I mean, good for her, but I'm not buying it really.

I'm not sure what happens now. Fall is coming and things always escalate around the holidays. We also just saw them for my son's birthday and perhaps that's why I'm feeling triggered. I know we will be in contact at least once a month from now until March, and that has me spiraling. It has me wondering if I'm the wrong one here. Am I the narcissist? The way I'm so focused on my own hurt and feelings? The discomfort I feel from her silent treatment and what feels like grey-rocking is confusing. I'm not uncomfortable because I miss her by any means. It's more like a piece of me is saying "Wait, I'm the one being NC, not you." So, I'm the one wanting the power here, and that feels gross honestly. I'm ashamed. The fact that I feel that way makes me feel like I am really the PD one here. Which, of course, is what MIL has believed and said all along.

I trust everyone here. From everything I've read, the input is so honest and the patterns between different experiences are staggering to me. I have close friends. I have close family in my FOO. I've had therapists. I have my own intuition. What I also have is this nagging sense of self-doubt and guilt and confusion, and I just really want unbiased feedback here. If I'm the one to blame, I want to change and be better for my husband and children. I thank you all for reading this saga.


     

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello and welcome! I am glad you found this place.

I will admit, I did not read through all of the details and I was very curious about your original question because I really do think this is an important question a lot of us ask ourselves when we get Out of the FOG.

In your 2nd paragraph you share that you met your MIL when you were 15, and that she and her husband were like substitute parents to you at that time in your life.

At present, you are no longer 15 years old - and I think that from how you've written about things here - even though I didn't read all the details in each paragraph, you have done normal, healthy things like individuate and grow as you aged and became an adult.

It sounds like there has been a fair amount of drama involved in keeping these relationships going between you and your DH and his family members over time.

If your MIL is a narcissist, then these facts alone are 'red flags' to me that help to explain why you feel the way that you do today about her. Narcissistic people are looking for 'supply' from the people around them. The toolbox here on the site explains it really well. Narcissistic people are manipulating the people around them, to have control.

Those of us caught in this 'web' are going to be party to much drama as the narcissist continually works to meet their own goals. It can go on for many years, before we realize how crummy the situation truly is, and so you are in good company here since many of us have tried to make things work with our ILs, only to realize, uh oh, things just are not working.

You said she is 'only capable of small talk'. After knowing each other for many years, two people should move beyond small talk, unless one of them is unable / unwilling to do so. You know this, which is why it has raised problems for you. Any solid relationship or friendship, moves away from 'small talk' after a period. Otherwise, the relating is 'stunted' in my opinion. The person who is only capable of small talk is probably keeping things superficial because it serves a purpose...for them.

With the situation like between you and your MIL over the years, it sounds like she has had lots of access to you, and has taken advantage of the situation - you are trying to be a good daughter in law, and she is only capable of small talk, so for years, you probably just tried your best to deal with it. I can so relate.

One of the 'principles' in dealing with the sorts of relationships we discuss on this site is "I didn't cause it, I can't change it". You won't be able to change the fact that she's keeping things at 'small talk' level. If that is who she is, that is who she is. And it is frustrating, yep.

As for your question - How do I know I am not the narcissist? Narcissists tend not to ask this question. (Some narcissists actually know they are narcs and are proud of it).

My 2 cents on your situation is that you've probably been around a lot of self-absorbed behaviours now for quite a long time (i.e. years). This in itself can make it very very challenging to know that your own feelings, thoughts and needs and wants are valid, real and healthy. You might feel confident about that sometimes (perhaps when you've got space from some of the more selfish people in your life) but other times, you can feel very unsure as to whether you are yourself, the problem (the narcissist).

Being in close contact with people who are emotionally immature can have that affect on us. It can cause us to question ourselves. We can lose clarity on what our own needs are, and that they are valid. That other person's behaviour is "messing with our compass".

When I met my ILs, I did not have healthy boundaries with them. Years later, when I realized I really needed to express my needs and wants, because the lack of boundaries had created a mess that I needed to clean up, they did not react well at all. Changing those dynamics with ILs, can be very challenging. People get used to being accommodated. You may not be able to explain to someone who is emotionally immature, why you are 'updating' your approach to visits etc... They will whine that you've moved the goal posts, and that they are the victim of your mean behaviours.

Maybe that fits for you and maybe it doesn't - I did read about how you feel currently and the anxiety about future visits. I hope you find this is a good place to explore some of these questions that you have about how to navigate this situation.

I will say that if you have been the one to go along with things for many years, then you have been the one who actually did a lot in order to try to make these relationships healthy. In my view, there tends to be one person in the family who is willing to patiently go along with the plan...one person who is able to set aside how they feel, and accommodate others. In a healthy family system, this person does not get exploited. In an unhealthy family system, this person is not treated well, but is also expected to participate in all the things, all the time, on the terms set out by the people with power in the family. From what you've written, I would encourage you to explore whether you were that person for a while, and you have  now outgrown your desire to be that person for your ILs. Perhaps as a parent yourself now, your focus is now on giving your own children the sorts of family experiences that you know they need.

Sometimes we outgrow our desire to accommodate our immature In laws. Each of us has to then find a path forward after that, and it can be tricky. So glad you are here.

Just food for thought.

Trees

[Empie2204]

Hi no1schild, welcome to this community,

Most of us have our share of struggles and dilemmas, and this forum is the right place to learn and grow. In some parts of your post you mentioned how you applied some good tools at the time you did not know they were tools. I believe this is a good and sane human instinct and will for survival. I am glad you found the place that showed you that your common sense is functioning.

I like the treesgrowslowly post, especially the parts below. They are something I can relate to and I think they are universal.

As for your question - How do I know I am not the narcissist? Narcissists tend not to ask this question. (Some narcissists actually know they are narcs and are proud of it).
...

Being in close contact with people who are emotionally immature can have that affect on us. It can cause us to question ourselves. We can lose clarity on what our own needs are, and that they are valid. That other person's behaviour is "messing with our compass".

When I met my ILs, I did not have healthy boundaries with them. Years later, when I realized I really needed to express my needs and wants, because the lack of boundaries had created a mess that I needed to clean up, they did not react well at all. Changing those dynamics with ILs, can be very challenging. People get used to being accommodated. You may not be able to explain to someone who is emotionally immature, why you are 'updating' your approach to visits etc... They will whine that you've moved the goal posts, and that they are the victim of your mean behaviours.

I don´t think you are a narcissist. You are "only" a mother and wife who wants to have and nourish her family. It was painful to read how self-centered your MIL is. It´s not so much important whether her behavior has any name, it´s about sabotaging your life.
I think you are on a good way to establish some permanent boundaries and I wish your DH will also become a fast learner.

It really surprises me that the same patterns appear all around the globe, and not exclusively in traditionally oriented societies. Extended families should basically be a blessing but is it really so hard to be considerate to the basic needs of others?

I wish you and your nice family a lot of love, unity and strength.

[Cat of the Canals]

It's a bit of an armchair diagnosis kind of thing, but we often say, "If you seriously ask yourself if you're the narc, you're probably not."

Now ask yourself if your MIL would ever wonder about this. I can tell you that my own PDmother and PDmil would consider the question for about half a second before immediately putting 100% of the blame on someone else. The notion that every relationship is a 50/50 endeavor does not enter their minds. The idea that they are the common denominator in a lifetime of rocky/toxic/manipulative/unhealthy/drama-filled relationships is something they'd never, ever admit.

[no1schild]

Thank you all for your responses and your time...I'm embarrassed by the length of my post  . I just wanted to make sure I was giving the full picture, because I really do want unbiased input. And, once I started, it was like "emptying a jar" (as someone on this forum so well put). Once I started writing out all of the behaviors that have hurt me and my DH, I was able to organize it in my mind a bit differently. It became apparent to me that I have been gaslighted often and have often gaslighted myself. I'm grateful for this outlet that has made a safe space for me to see this pattern.

Trees--In reading your response, there was a major light bulb moment for me. When you said "sometimes we outgrow our desire to accommodate our in-laws' immature behavior."  My mantra the past few days has been "I've outgrown them," and it has helped me in a big way to put a stopper on my ruminating thoughts and negative self-talk. Thank you so much for bringing this to light.

I was, as you describe, the one to acquiesce for many years (partly due to the fact that I was a child when we met). I had poor boundaries for a variety of reasons due to age/ experience and my dysfunctional FOO. You've jogged my memory and now I'm remembering that during that time, my BIL had several significant others who my MIL routinely verbally/ emotionally abused and triangulated (including with me). Those SOs did not last. Eventually my BIL married someone who never makes waves and is very agreeable to MIL and FIL in every way. It seems as DH and I have grown a desire to follow our own path, we have been assigned/ taken on that new scapegoat role, and the position of "accommodator" has been filled by someone else. Although this causes pain, I wouldn't change it, because that would mean giving up my autonomy. Now I can try to see this as a choice of self-love and personal strength on my part, rather than focusing on the pain of rejection. I thank you for your insight.

Empie2204--Thank you for your reply and your support. I appreciate you identifying some of my perceptions as survival instincts. It feels so unfair that some of us have this heightened sensitivity to abuse that our abusers then use against us. There's also the issue of others in the family who aren't suffering the same dynamics, and so DH and I are always the ones "with the problem." It makes me question my instincts and leads me down a rabbit hole of self-hate.

I am finding the toolbox on this site incredibly helpful, as it gives names to the challenges that are real patterns for family dysfunction. They are not just in my head, as I've been told. I want to break this cycle in my own family, for my own children, and I know that starts with my own healing. Thank you for taking the time to help.

Cat of the Canals--You raise a good point. I've never called my MIL out on being a narcissist, but I can well imagine how that would go. Once, I did try to explain some of her behaviors that hurt me and DH. Her response was "Well, I'm not the only horrible person in the room" (spoiler--I was the only other person in the room). So, yes, it's safe to assume she would 100% deflect. There are many, many other relationships that have been broken by her behavior and overall personality. I need to do better to remind myself of this: I have several close, safe relationships whereas she has only superficial, broken, or non-existent relationships. That has to be evidence of something, right? I appreciate your insight.

[bloomie]

no1schild - I am sure glad you have landed here at Out of the FOG! Welcome.

You better believe you have outgrown swimming around in the murky waters that is your DH's family system where the sharks are hard to spot. You are on your way to a more stable foundation for your feet. Healing is happening and you are growing in understanding in ways that positions you to break generational pattens of toxic behaviors for yourself and your precious family of choice (FOC). BRAVO!!!!

I read every single word of your post. Thank you for trusting us with the experiences you have had that have brought such pain and confusion to your young developing life.  I can relate to so, so, so much of your experiences and the way that you have often turned on yourself in order to make sense of the insensible choices of your in law family.

I would point out the obvious... while you were a child when you established a relationship with your DH and by extension his mother and father making so much of the unhealthy patterns that grew out of the time understandable on yours and your DH's part... your mil and fil were most certainly NOT children. They were full fledged adults who were in a position to embrace, nurture, mentor, support, and tenderly protect and love the vulnerable, beautiful young woman who came into their son's life and theirs. You, the woman your DH loves and has committed his life to. Making their choices to undermine, verbally and emotionally manipulate and abuse you, scapegoat you and your H, attempt to divide you and when they couldn't then control you incomprehensible.

Dear no1schild - you are the emotional and spiritual center of your sweet family. You are resilient and true. You are a strong and wise person who knows her value and gathers her family and friends to her in love and confidence. You do not look outside yourself to people who do not care for you or truly know you, for definition or validation because you know who you are and what you are made of and you live from that centered, confident place. You live, love, celebrate and engage as you choose with whom you chose how you chose. Because that is your human right.

You do not have to fear someone as shallow and powerless as your mil or fil. You are the stronger, wiser, healthier person. DO NOT let them diminish you in any way. The only sway they hold over you is what you give over.

Keep coming back and sharing! This is hard stuff. It gets better when we are willing to do the work as you are doing and when you have built a trustworthy support system around you!

[Leonor]

 

Welcome!

I especially loved Bloomie's point that the adults in our lives when we were young, no matter what our relationship or developmental stage or attitudes or behavior, were adults.

I am constantly gobsmacked, now that I am in my 50s, to see how young the young people around me are. It's not a flaw or deficiency; it's just part of the charm and openness of being young. And it infuriates me that there are older people around them who would abuse that innocence and openness just because they can, for their own needs.

If my son brought home a beloved friend, that friend would be honored as a guest in our home. And if that friend were in need of love and caring, which as an adult you can see in a child as soon as they walk through the door, it would be my sacred obligation to hold that young person in boundaried, thoughtful, considerate care, like a wise chaperone. Not a parent. Not a peer. And certainly not a partner!

For your ILs to treat you in any way otherwise is just twisted. "Horrible" is exactly the word to describe their conscious, vicious behavior.

As you step into your adult self and lead your beautiful own little family, the people who seem to loom over your life now will, little by little, shrink down to human size. You made it this far. You can trust yourself!

[Empie2204]

Leonor, your post is spot on.
Me being in my early 60s have the same feeling as you. Age or certain position in the family/society do not give right to act superior or entitled. Too many people still hold this viewpoint. Instead of respecting people the way they are.

Generational positions are not weapons - in any direction.

[treesgrowslowly]

Bloomie and Leonor,  so spot on! I do believe this is part of the feeling of being in a fog when we've outgrown the adult relatives who treat us horribly....the "natural" order of things would suggest we *should* be able to learn something from our elders .. but not when they are so dysfunctional! And in denial of their dysfunction. It's so confusing when we are more mature than people twice our age!

Then we are stuck doing what the OP here is doing. Planting herself in the nurturing soil of a hopeful future for her and her kids and her family of choice.

So sad that so many adults take advantage of the young people who come into their lives. So many of them don't have anything healthy to pass on to the next generation. As Bloomie said, this was totally their choice.

Thankfully, there are people like no1schild who break the cycles.

Trees

[mustard_seed]

no1schild,

I relate to so much of what you wrote and just want you to know you're not alone. I also had a dysfunctional and abusive upbringing, and stepped right into a harmonizer role in my DH's family when we met. I've been no contact with UPDMil and EnFil now for almost 7 months and this forum has been a huge support in helping me prioritize my own well-being in the midst of a toxic situation.

When I read your post, I get an image of a caring, empathetic, conscientious human being. You care for your husband and children. You reflect on your behaviors and how they might impact others. You appear thoughtful and self-aware. Though I can relate as well to wondering whether I'm the one with PD, it seems the pattern is mostly that victims of abuse, who are dealing with emotional and cognitive and often physical challenges as a result of previous abuse, often question themselves in this exact way.

I'm still in the middle of finding my way on a similar journey as yours. But the best advice I've gotten so far is basically to put my own oxygen mask on first. What is your sanest, safest, most rational and healthiest course of action that you can take for yourself at this time? Prioritize your well-being, as that's truly the best thing you can do for your FOC.

Keep sharing here, whatever feels helpful for you. I can also relate to the clarity that comes from writing my thoughts out to be read by others. It's one thing to journal, but it's another to write with readers in mind. We all learn from one another's stories, too.

-Mustard_Seed

[no1schild]

Dear no1schild - you are the emotional and spiritual center of your sweet family. You are resilient and true. You are a strong and wise person who knows her value and gathers her family and friends to her in love and confidence. You do not look outside yourself to people who do not care for you or truly know you, for definition or validation because you know who you are and what you are made of and you live from that centered, confident place. You live, love, celebrate and engage as you choose with whom you chose how you chose. Because that is your human right.

Dear Bloomie, I have copied these words down and pinned them by my bathroom mirror with the rest of my affirmations. I cried as I read them, because I want so badly to really feel that all you said up there is true about myself. I'm working on it! I so appreciate you!

[no1schild]

Mustardseed, Trees, Empie, and Leonor,
Thank you for helping me to not feel alone. DH is supportive and I would call us a team at this point, but that wasn't without a lot of painful learning in our marriage. We've had to grow as individuals of dysfunctional FOOs and as a couple. As thankful as I am to have a supportive spouse, it is still different when the challenges are as the in-law and not blood. People here are my people. I've not felt this seen, ever. What you all mention regarding age has struck a chord with me, and here's why:

I mentioned in my first post how I've been repeatedly told I was a parentified child. I see how this is true, and how my mother, who I do love dearly, still calls me "her rock." That's a lot of pressure to grow up with. Many of the therapeutic writings I've read have suggested to approach self-love as if one is loving his/ her 4 year old self. To imagine giving ourselves the nurturing we didn't get from the adults around us in those formative years. I have a 4 year old, and as I watch him and all of my children, I think how different their lives are than mine was, in that I don't think I was ever fully a child.

Then there's my DH who is STILL treated like a child, and every attempt he makes to assert himself as an adult is met with ridicule, verbal abuse, or isolation. As if MIL is trying to belittle him into being a child that she can manipulate. Sometimes it has worked, but these days he's pretty much aware when it's happening. I was biologically a child when I met her, and polite, as I was taught to be to adults. But inside, I was not a child, her manipulations didn't work on me, and I think that may be at the core of her dislike. This makes me furious for adult me and sad for inner-child me, whose heart is still very guarded and insecure.

MIL once told me (when I was nearing 30 years old), "Your problem with me is that you have never had a real mother. I'm a real mother and I'm GOOD at it." She tried to convince me that her controlling nature was actually the way of a nurturing mother, and at times I wondered if I really was this disrespectful brat she was suggesting. Now that I am a mother of four sons, I KNOW controlling and nurturing are two different things completely. I will never treat my sons the way she has treated her own.

Now, only to remind myself daily that all this is true...incredibly grateful to have you all to help me with that.