Husband staying stuck, I feel I am too

[Call Me Cordelia]

So we have been NC with both of our parents for a few years now. Mine first for both of us, then I went NC with my PD IL's and then they pretty much discarded my H.

His mother was emotionally incestuous. This has led my H to pretty much have the emotional range of a teaspoon. I was conditioned to never have any needs or expect any emotional support ever. A match made in Heaven between us, right?

Well since beginning this whole healing journey I've been discovering and starting to live the truth that my feelings matter! My sexual experience matters! My love languages actually are words of affirmation, gifts, and physical affection that is not simply an "in" to get sex. We took that quiz when engaged and my answers were very different then. He's been operating on that old data that it's acts of service and the erroneous conclusion that doing the dishes after dinner checks that box. No, that's just basic contribution level. Try again. I've asked for words of affirmation from him and the best he could offer at that time was I am a good cook. Gifts have been an ongoing saga year in and year out. I now recoil from his physical affection.

I've explained all this to DH. He feels a bit bait and switched, because he "thought he married a low-maintenance woman." Yes, I have changed, and I now have the capacity and desire for a more fulfilling marriage. I have cried and begged and pleaded for him to deal with his childhood issues. He agrees this is a problem and is causing us both harm. He really should go to a counselor.

But, alas, we are busy... he doesn't know the best one to see... he can't come up with gift ideas or words of affirmation without my directly telling him what to do and I say then it doesn't mean much... and nothing changes. Meanwhile years are passing and I'm increasingly resentful of the time wasted where we could have been much happier. More time gone to the influence of the PDs. Before we didn't know, but now we do. I resent that choice to be passive. To the point where I periodically feel tempted to call up my MiL and tell her how much I hate her to relieve my feelings. None of this marriage stuff impacts him nearly as much. He doesn't feel it, I have rationally argued him into agreement that it would be right to do this thing, just as one really ought to clear the gutters of fallen leaves. He'd rather go to counseling than endure my everlasting feelings, I guess when framed as that choice?

I'm going to receive some counseling next week, as is he, at last, same counselor, separately. I insisted on his being the one to own it and set it up. I would not drag him along, and that seemed like the right boundary. But all I can feel right now is anger at his slowness. It feels like if he cared it would have been more of a priority. He did the thing, but it's so long in coming I can't give him much credit for it.

My husband is not PD. I'm confident this is a case of fleas. I do not wish to leave the marriage, I want the marriage to be better. He says he does too, but he has a lot of trust to win back. His passivity is a major major issue! I cannot change that about him. The natural consequence is I put up walls to protect myself from further hurt.

So now that we are actually going to drag ourselves into counseling, I would really appreciate your advice and support. I feel as if I'm simply going to rip open all these built up wounds from him and honestly that's starting now whether I'm willing or not. Ouch.

[NarcKiddo]

That's tough.

I can't advise as my own marriage is dysfunctional but workable for both of us. It did take a very genuine proposal of divorce by me for my husband to accept that I could no longer tolerate certain behaviour that I had put up for years without direct complaint.

I would, however, say that while your husband can obviously feel whatever he feels, it is a bit unfair to accuse you of bait and switch. Nobody in a long marriage stays married to the same person they married. Everyone grows and changes in some way, however small. I think that many marriages fail these days because couples think that everything will remain the same. It won't. It can't. If a marriage is to endure then both parties have to give some leeway to the other when the other changes. That said, it is also not unreasonable for the person who is doing what has "always" been satisfactory to feel shocked and possibly defensive when their tried and tested approach no longer works. Adjustment takes time. It's tough and a lot of work is needed from both parties.

I'm glad you are both going to counselling and I hope it works out for you.

[square]

"I thought I married a low maintenance woman."

Whoo, a lot to unpack there.

So he is saying that any effort in the marriage was not what he signed up for?

That you are invalid for having any needs?

If I were you, I'd want to know what he thinks marriage is about, because if it's just two people 100% taking care of themselves and splitting expenses, perhaps he would prefer a male roommate who would ask nothing of him except to do his share of the dishes - and yeah, even a guy roommate would expect thst.

I guess that line just really struck me because I can relate to having been trained to have no needs. To be fair, my H doesn't ask much of me either, but it has broken the connection. I am quite low maintenance but dammit, life is better if we help each other. Before H got unwell, he helped me and I helped him and we were both stronger for it. We were a team. Now we are just roommates and I'd rather have one who cleaned up after himself.

I guess from your husband I'd want to know -

Again, clearly, if he is interested in improving things and if the marriage is worth any effort from him

What he sees as a good or ideal marriage

If he sees his ideal as actually fair - for example if he expects you to contribute but your contributions are invisible, versus he expects you to stand on your own and ask for nothing

BTW I could put myself in your husband's shoes on words of affirmation. I am not good at it at all, they stick in my throat. Can you give me some examples of what you would like to hear from him? I can think about how I might approach it as someone who has trouble with it.

I'm also terrible with gifts. Is it important to you that the gifts be something special or do you like small things just to show he was thinking of you?  I mean, if I were your husband lol I would be a failure at buying jewelry or clothes for you, I'd get the wrong styles and sizes. But I would be capable of, say, bringing home a scented candle for you while I was picking up cat litter and saying I thought you might enjoy it for your bath, i would be capable of making a point to find something I thought you might like once a month or as often as you said you'd like. But a lot of ideas might be a miss and there might be a few repeats if I found a category you seemed to like (but I know the point is NOT to phone it in so I'd rotate between new ideas and successful repeats). Anyway, if he's open to it, you may have to lay it out, give him a few ideas not only what but how ("next time you're at ___ think about what might surprise me, and when you give it to me tell me something like you know blue is my favorite or you noticed I liked __").

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thank you both. It's not about the gifts or the words exactly. It's that I want him to see ME. To accept me. To be important to him. To be worth the effort to accept and adapt to the healthy changes I have made. To see where he has been doing harmful things, and its critical corollary, caring enough to correct them in a reasonably timely fashion. And to get help to do so when needed.

I have been patient. I have been understanding.

And he has not outright dismissed these things. He has rationally accepted them, if not emotionally. He has made boundaries with his parents for the sake of our FOC against his personal inclination, but was again rationally convinced of its necessity. What I am asking for now is emotional connection and intimacy. And everything in his past has told him that's not safe. And seeing my emotions and processing and the pain of the whole process is not exactly inspiring him to rip off that bandaid. I'm asking him to be willing to feel pain. Seek healthfulness like me! 😭😭😭 FOG sure was more comfortable for him.

But I was doing math problems with my middle schooler this morning. Henry is 7 steps ahead of John, and takes 6 steps while John takes 5; but 4 of John's steps equal 5 of Henry's: how many steps must John take to catch up to Henry?

Spoiler: It's a lot of steps.

I want to walk alongside my husband with this, not just yell to get with the program already. But so much of it I cannot do for him.

[square]

Intimacy is very important. Has he ever been intimate in the way you desire in the past?

Does he know concretely what you want?

Are there things he wants from you?

Does he have friends or other relationships where he shares even a little bit of himself?

[NarcKiddo]

What I am asking for now is emotional connection and intimacy. And everything in his past has told him that's not safe.

Oof. That is tough. I wish you both well. I have to say that one of the reasons my dysfunctional marriage rumbles on reasonably satisfactorily for both of us is because my husband and I connect with one another better than we connect with anyone else but neither asks the other to step far outside their safety zone. Over the years I think both our safety zones have expanded a little where our relationship is concerned and maybe they will in time expand more. But to be brutally honest, if he suddenly asked me for consistent emotional connection and intimacy, when everything in my past has told me it is not safe, my first instinct would be to run. I'm not sure I would be able to override that instinct, however much I would want to.

In my case I would probably have trouble even with rational acceptance (or at least admitting to rational acceptance, given the overwhelming alarm klaxons my emotions would be giving off) so I think you may have made more headway than you realise. Maybe you are already important to him but he does not yet know how to communicate that effectively. I hope the counselling can help with that.

I realise it sounds like I am "on his side", as it were, which I am not. It's just that the two quoted sentences of yours shot out at me and I felt the urge to comment further. Sorry if this post is unhelpful or annoying.

Hugs.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yeah, that statement shot out at me too. You aren't annoying. I do want to hold empathy for both of us even in the midst of my frustration. It is tough.

I'm not asking suddenly, though. This is literally 4 years since I went NC with his parents and asked him to please go to therapy so we could relate to each other in a healthier way. And some of the more specific things I've asked for such as the love language stuff go much further back. That isn't all, but they are handy clear examples.

My husband and I operate very well as more or less platonic life partners. I could honestly say he is my best friend. We have kids and are a good parenting team. We have many common interests and more or less see the world through a similar lens. I'm simply not satisfied to leave it at that. I gave it a go for quite some time, to be honest. I ultimately felt taken for granted and resentful. We're good when we're alongside each other looking at some outward goal, but when we look directly at the other, or else won't, then it gets awkward.

[treesgrowslowly]

My heart really really goes out to you in this because this is painful stuff Call me Cordelia.

I can offer my 2 cents but it might not fit. It might, it might not.

I've spent years of time and not a small amount of cash on couples self help - books, workshops etc etc etc.

Let's take the 5 love languages book as you mentioned it. I did love that book. it's great if people can adopt those practices and gestures but a lot comes up for people when they do something that's out of their comfort zone. And that book tells us to go ask our partner for things that they may not feel confident doing.

Esther Perel has said you'll have 3 marriages in your lifetime, and maybe all to the same person. Meaning - marriages can change over time, and in her view they probably should if people are evolving. It's OK that your love languages changed.

That love language book presented a very attractive thesis. I don't dispute it, but what it didn't explain, (from what I recall) is how much resistance there can be in one partner, to accept how hard it is for the other person to make mistakes.

Love languages involve vulnerability and we all know how confusing vulnerability is after narc abuse. ie the parental abuse you know he survived.

You are not the first wife to wish your husband knew what to do or say without having to tell him specifically. Some husbands know, but many need specifics.

Especially if he had parents who didn't model this stuff for him.

Does he approach things as task oriented? This can be very hard on a wife who is emotions focused. She wants to feel something, and he wants to accomplish something. If he feels best when his day is a set of tasks and if he's a different personality type than you are (Myers briggs or enneagram etc), then he sees differently than you do. Healing looks different for him and some love language practices might seem obvious to you but lost on him.

I've had to reckon with some of this too. Mid-marriage, one person may find real comfort in the way the relationship has developed thus far.

It is definitely possible for him to learn more about how to meet your emotional needs more reliably.

I had to learn that sometimes a marriage is in a place where one partner is comfortable - it is a "good enough" marriage for them, and the other partner wakes up to things she now wants. She wants more.

As for gifts, I've learned that only  some people are good at gifts. They tend to be people with high EQ,  intuitive, paying attention to detail and confident in choosing something they believe the other will like. They tend to enjoy searching for the item they have in mind  and finding the right gift right colour etc....its enjoyable for them. Then theres the rest of us.

Those "good gift giver" traits  are pretty specific traits. I do wonder if we've been oversold on how our mate *needs* to know what to give us each holiday / birthday. That if he doesn't, it's a clear sign he's not making an effort. What if he just doesn't have those characteristics? What if he needs to be told exactly what we would like this holiday?

Much as I would love a partner who is as good at gifts as I have been at times, usually one person is better at gifts than the other.

I think there's a reason why the internet is full of pictures of gifts gone wrong from husbands and wives. Not everyone is good at gifts and not every gift is a hit. I can appreciate how frustrating it is though to have a husband whose gifts are mostly or all misses. Gifts are powerful. That's why narcs use them to such success as bait or gaslighting. Gifts are powerful. They just are. That's what I believe.

As I've worked to try to heal my codependency I've actually changed my desire to put so much time into selecting gifts for people in my life. So imagine if my DH realized his love language is gifts. We'd have to find a compromise since for me, these days I find it valuable to focus on giving the other 4 languages since my codependency involved trying to make gifts substitute for intimacy.

I do also wonder if women *might* (emphasis on might) feel safer accepting gifts during times of stress because physical touch might be too much or not desired. Don't quote me on that - it is just a wondering and i could be totally off base. All love languages are valid.

I think that a lot of us women, we might get to a place emotionally in our lives where we realize how little we've gotten back compared to what we've given others, and we hope that if our mate can start buying us thoughtful gifts, it will help to heal that wound. And it is a wound. Some women do so much for their families, if you have been giving a lot to him and your family for years, then you are in good company here - as I too had to wrestle with this.

I used to subscribe to a magazine and women would send in pics of handmade quilts they gifted to people in their lives. I don't know if this is as common for men. Those sorts of thoughtful gifts are important to a lot of women.

At the end of the day we want relief from feeling invisible. Or taken for granted. Or misunderstood.

I am the type that if someone were to gift me my favourite tea, it means more to me than an expensive sweater I don't like. One cost more but the one that conveys "I know you, I know what you like" is the gift that touches out heart.

If we wait for our husbands to become intuitive and confident gift gifts we might wait for ever. I realize you said there are several things on your mind - the love languages is just one. And it is one that goes back a long time as you said. Understandable.

I really hope I didn't make it sound like he gets a pass. I've just had to rethink my understanding of the love languages stuff over the last few years and sounds like you are thinking about it too. If what I wrote doesn't fit please forgive me.

Thank you for sharing about this topic and I do hope the counseling sessions go well for both!

Trees

[Leonor]

Hello Cordelia,

Oh I am right here with you!

I am struggling ATM because we did come to a livable arrangement with our own completely and horribly dysfunctional families of origin, have created a beautiful little family of our own, and are doing good ... But I'm often aching for that emotional connection.

I too feel that I did my work, not just on setting boundaries and healing from trauma but also growing and connecting as a human being, and have stopped begging for just the crumbs that have fallen off someone else's emotional plate.

I've had so many conversations and tears and heart to brain  talks with dh about what he wants and what I want. There are little glimpses of that openness and vulnerability but that's usually in times of stress, and I'd love to have that channel open all the time.

It does also trigger my abandonment panic and question the health of our relationship ... Emotional neglect is probably the form of abuse that has most traumatized my soul even beyond all the others. So dh's distance, as I perceive it, feels to me like oh god here we go again and I'm weeping and trembling and getting myself into the divorce headspace before I even realize it consciously.

I feel like I have come so, so far, and I don't want to settle at this point. I don't want to make do or compromise on the relationship that is the closest to my heart and soul when I can give even more if I just got a little watering and sunshine from time to time, and not when the sky is falling or I am visibly upset.

Ok I have to bring kiddies to school but I want to respond more. I have you in mind Cordelia and I'm just describing my feelings in such detail to let you know that I (think) I truly get it and that your post deeply resonates with me.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I feel like I have come so, so far, and I don't want to settle at this point. I don't want to make do or compromise on the relationship that is the closest to my heart and soul when I can give even more if I just got a little watering and sunshine from time to time, and not when the sky is falling or I am visibly upset.

Yes, this, exactly! Oh, you DO understand!

And Trees...

I think that a lot of us women, we might get to a place emotionally in our lives where we realize how little we've gotten back compared to what we've given others, and we hope that if our mate can start buying us thoughtful gifts, it will help to heal that wound. And it is a wound. Some women do so much for their families, if you have been giving a lot to him and your family for years, then you are in good company here - as I too had to wrestle with this.

Yes, I think this is true. I have been running on empty a lot. Taking care of everybody all the time. I am better learning to fill my own cup but it would just be so much more satisfying if I could rely on him in that area too. And I'm interpreting this desire for him to step up as a sign of healing, not unhealthy dependency.

Thanks for your thoughts about gifts. Gifts were weaponized by both sets of parents. So I do think that explains why before I was a zero in that category, and DH said, "Phew! Dodging that bullet forever!" Now I want to do gifts in a healthy way.

I'm definitely one of those women who gift handmade quilts!!! And a good gift giver generally. It's that intersection of HSP/INFJ traits, I suppose. He is definitely more task oriented. INTJ and not HSP.

[Pepin]

He feels a bit bait and switched, because he "thought he married a low-maintenance woman." Yes, I have changed, and I now have the capacity and desire for a more fulfilling marriage. I have cried and begged and pleaded for him to deal with his childhood issues. He agrees this is a problem and is causing us both harm. He really should go to a counselor.

My husband is not PD. I'm confident this is a case of fleas. I do not wish to leave the marriage, I want the marriage to be better. He says he does too, but he has a lot of trust to win back. His passivity is a major major issue! I cannot change that about him. The natural consequence is I put up walls to protect myself from further hurt.

I can certainly relate to this....sadly.  It's terribly frustrating.  While I am NC with NF (as is DH) - I wanted to be NC with CN MIL but that would have meant walking away from my marriage.  Horribly unfair.  I've had the conversations with DH about the situation and the one part that he doesn't understand yet is that he was abused by his mother.  He really has dug in his heels and feels that what he went through was "normal".  He did what he did out of obligation.  He was the chosen one.  He was the hero.  He knew what needed to be done and did it.  He essentially sacrificed himself yet fails to see that he was chosen to do what he did.  He had no say.

All of this impacted our marriage.  All of it.  I had no idea that it would because it wasn't there at the beginning.  DH was far too removed from his FOO to have provided any sort of indication to me that I should walk away.  Marriage is complicated and things change.  Becoming a mother pretty much opened me up to the dysfunction of DH's youth and current relationship with his parents.  It was unseeable after that realization and changed me forever.  DH just doesn't see it.  Or doesn't want to.  Maybe he doesn't want to rewrite his history but would rather continue talking about it as a child.   

[Leonor]

Hello all,

Okay here's my part II. I'm not saying this is how it is or should be or anything like that. It's just a process I'm going through, and since there's so many of us in the boat, I'd love to hear how others navigate these higher waters.

First thing is that I am still married after 20 years. My parents got married 5 times between them and never got past year 12. Dh's parents were married for 50 and their marriage was, to my mind, horrible. So being married a long time is not in and of itself a good thing. It's just that I don't have a frame of reference for what is normal after a certain point. But I imagine that there are more bleh days than not. I have enough personal experience with bad relationships, so I like to read about old couples who have been married forever and are happy. They always say the same thing, which is how many days and weeks and months and even years were just freaking hard or dull or boring or distant or angry. It's the foundation that counts, they say, and how from time to time you commit to the marriage rather than the person. Excepting abuse, of course, or neglect. But it does seem like some days are just the showing up part.

The other thing I think about is the idea of emotional labor. That's the new thing, right? And it's kind of come to mean who does dishes and dentist appointments. But originally - I think - it meant the feeling work. The emotional sharing. The empathy lift. And guess who tends to shoulder that burden? Hint! It's the same person usually stuck with the dishes and dentist appointments!

I also think that men do feel that they tend to the relationship. They just do it different. Like I said to my dh, I wish we spent more time together. I was thinking a movie or a dinner date or something. And he said, We spend all our time together! He was thinking house tasks and soccer practices and budgeting. NOT my idea of romance. But he really could not conceive of carving out more than the 24 hours we already practically spent together. That for him was quality time. Because men - fellas, correct me if I'm wrong - consider quantity time to count more than we do.

And just as our dhs have their traumas, so do we. I know that I place way more emotional importance in dh than maybe I should because I could never build that emotional baseline. And then when my foo cut me off and I lost all my FM friends and the ILs turned out to be damaging, dh became not just my main emotional support, but my only emotional support. It's like Oprah, maybe she and Stedman got this far because she had Gail, you know?

So now I am aware of my own hurts and wishes, but I do try to keep mindful of the good: the history, the friendship, the parenting, the hand-me-a-wrench Saturdays. And I remind myself that for dh, that's what building a life together means, and he may be right.

It doesn't mean that I would like something more than a high five at a soccer game, but I think I have to take more initiative. I am going to get us movie tickets or I have made this reservation or something. If he says what do you want for Christmas, I say, "That." And tend to me and be that emotional base for me, and work on broadening my friendships to take the heat off him a bit.

I will let you all know how it gooooeees

[square]

I do think it could be useful to come up with a positive management of what you want. So your idea of getting movie tickets and being forthright about what gift would be nice is great. And the key is to let go of the wish that he would just know.

If you get the tickets and you have a decent time - fireworks not necessary - great. He may come to enjoy these things but may not be quite on your wavelength.

My parents had a good, but not fairytale, marriage. My dad screwed up a lot. My mom was critical. They both let each other down, a lot. But through all the disappointment they still both cared about each other and wanted to keep a life together.

There were ways they did not really get each other, ways they were unseen - and yet, nobody knew either of them like the other. My dad could kind of be an emotional dolt but then he would surprise me by explaining that he was refusing to solve a problem because my mother felt inadequate and he was willing to just eat the consequences. And I don't think my mom to this day has a clue that he even saw a problem much less that he consciously decided to protect her emotionally by refusing to solve it.

I don't know your relationship but maybe there is more intimacy going on under the surface than is easily seen.

[hhaw]

CMC:

This is a rhetorical question, but.....
what would it mean to you if your husband can't change in the marriage?

[Fae Greenwood]

Call Me Cordelia, it sounds like you want your husband to take responsibility for his part of the emotional life of the marriage. Of course you were low maintenance; you required no effort from him but carried both of you. You say you now recoil from his physical touch. That's a good indication that the core of the relationship is out of balance for you.

Marriage is never equal between partners at all times. Sometimes one spouse needs to be carried by the other for a while. The death of a parent, a job loss, childbirth, or an accident or illness are just a few of the obvious things that can occur that require a spouse to carry more of the emotional work of the marriage for a time. What happens when one spouse refuses to take up their part of the relationship again? What happens when one spouse emotionally battens on the life of the other? The active spouse becomes drained and resentful.

Your reasonable requests for your husband to up his treatment of you is not making you higher maintenance; it is demanding that he actually participate in the full spousal relationship. I too asked this of my husband and I too got what I now recognize was a malicious incompetence in return. He claimed he couldn't figure it out. I finally gave him a checklist of little things to do each day, like saying good morning and good night, kissing me at least twice daily without touching my privates, using the magic words of please and thanks, etc. yet he just couldn't "understand" what I wanted (his words). Time passed and I realized that he had gotten our marriage down to the absolute minimum that he wanted from it. He doesn't want to be closer. I fill a role in his life and he's fine with that. It was only when I refused to be used for sex any longer (my active participation wasn't necessary and he seemed confused at my anger about it) that he became interested in improving the marriage but he clearly only wants to get it back to his minimum.

What interests me is his praise is that you are a "good cook." My husband also can only compliment my role as he sees me (I'm a "good mom" which is nice but our youngest is 27 so...)  but not me as a woman separate and apart from all other women, only as how I fill whatever box he's placed me in. I hope your husband can learn to do better.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hi all, thank you for your thoughts and support. By way of update, the counselor unfortunately had to postpone our sessions for a few weeks. 

[NarcKiddo]

Hi all, thank you for your thoughts and support. By way of update, the counselor unfortunately had to postpone our sessions for a few weeks. 

Ugh. I would find that very annoying and upsetting, especially given the stress you have had to get to this point. Hugs.

[Poppy]

Hi Call Me Cordelia, I originally visited Out of the FOG because of my FOO, but I came back to this forum today because I'm looking for advice or validation on exactly what you're going through...

I totally recognize your struggle with evolving, growing, and wishing your husband evolved with you. I am in the same boat.
And like you I've tried it all: talking endlessly, supporting, suggesting articles, suggesting counsellors and other avenues. So mostly focused on him. But lately I've started focusing on myself more i suppose - setting boundaries, emotionally distancing (protecting?) myself and I am now thinking radical acceptance is the only way to stay in this marriage.

I think you are like me in seeing the relationship you COULD be having, if only they were able to face their childhood, sit with their pain and move through it. And that your life together on the other end of that tunnel of old pain could be so joyful. Because we feel so liberated! So much more healthy! So proud of all the inner work we've done. So lightened of the burdens of our childhoods. How amazing would it be to share that with our husbands.

But I've come to a point I'm thinking can I really expect my husband to change alongside me? I don't know... Yes, I can certainly hope for it, or support him in his journey. But that has never amounted to anything except heartache and disappointment on my end.
What if really he doesn't want to change? That's such a scary thing to imagine, but what if for him facing his issues costs him more than a better marriage is worth? And also more than I am worth? And our kids...

Growing up in the dysfunctional family that I did, feelings of being worth anything/ being enough are challenging for me as it is. And here I go, picking a life partner who triggers all these old feelings on an almost daily basis.

It wasn't until I did all those years of inner work (disentangling of my childhood, recognizing the toxicity/dysfunction of my FOO, slowly healing and grieving, setting boundaries, learning better coping mechanisms and all that) that I realized my daily life at home was also unhealthy. What a shock. Because now what?? I could deal with and remove myself to a comfortable extent from my FOO, but here I am, in a unfulfilling marriage, with kids, a life, a home, no money or career of my own... So I'm still here. But I'm so unhappy and lonely. 

Lack of empathy, emotional maturity, intimacy, vulnerability, authenticity - how can I expect or even hope for that to grow, when that part was so stunted in his childhood? It would have taking years to naturally mature and evolve. Now it needs an active effort of basically a child who doesn't see the value in these things because he doesn't HAVE the emotional maturity to fully understand the necessity. Such a conundrum and it must be very frustrating to my husband too. Me asking for things he doesn't know how to give. So we argue. We fight. I disassociate or disengage. I try radical acceptance until I snap and lay out all of my frustrations and disappointments anyway.

We have also talked about counselling. But I said he needed to go to therapy himself first. So we could start after that from a more level playing field.
He did. He skipped appointments. Finally stopped going altogether. Under the guise of busyness. Of being the sole breadwinner so it's harder for me to complain. So that ship sailed. I decided I'm not going to push it. Change is only possible if you want it yourself. It's such a hard path, facing your demons, your past... I wouldn't know how I would have done all that if it wasn't of my own volition.

I think going to couples counselling would scare me at this point. Because I truly feel we wouldn't get to a point that was really significantly better. I don't think he would honestly put in the needed effort. Or even know what that looked like. And when shown what it looked like, pretend to forget or misunderstand. And where do you go from there?
So I suppose in the back of my mind this is still an option for the future. If we don't fail at this, there may still be a chance.

I try to live my most authentic life. Be kind, be patient, be the person I am and work on the things I want to improve. Try and get a career going.
Lead by example, while trying not to hope for change. But man that's hard. I'm no saint, no zen master. And he brings me down a lot. I get thrown into a spiral of disassociation, of self sabotage and I accomplish very little of what I set out to do.

I sometimes suspect its intentional on his part. To keep me down. To keep me at home. So I won't leave. Or is this my suspicious mind because I grew up the way I did??

I also think I notice malicious incompetence as Fea Greenwood described. The promises made and later unremembered, the "Please explain to me again. I must have misunderstood", the "But I did do such and such (something entirely different or not what I asked for), it's never good enough with you is it?"...
To me they feel like: "I didn't prioritize my promises. I don't value our talk and you sharing your vulnerability. I just forgot or actively decided not to follow though on any of it.

Either way - I'm not getting what I need from this relationship. But I feel totally unequipped or ready to leave. Deep down I don't want to. Or is it fear?
So I'm stuck. Like he is stuck. And here goes another day. Another week. Another year.

Call Me Cordelia - Have your sessions started up again? I'm really curious how you're getting on. Would love to hear how you're doing!

[feralcat]

I don't normally read this section, purely because I don't think DH has  PD. But damn , he definitely has fleas, and won't address anything. At the moment I'm sooo fed up with him. He's drivingme mad. Im stuck here because

...I'm 67 and it doesn't seem 'worth it' to throw everything up in the air now/again (remarried 22 years ago). Because I keep trying to convince myself that, if I can make a parallel life, I can build up something satisfying enough ? . Because I can't imagine this is great for him either ?

I've changed a lot in the last 7 years, since darling unPdM basically panicked me into my epiphany. For which I am perversely grateful. Since then I've basically weaned myself off enmeshed FOO, and more recently enmeshed in laws. DH isn't keen, and would really like me to play nice to them, as my spousal role entails. I know, he's told me so.
He also expects that I put up and shut up , re his turning into a mixture of his own parents. Alternatingly a man child to be told what to do, then criticising. Lazy but unappreciative of what I do /organiser( there's a brilliant video by Patrick Teahan about how relationships between traumatised adults can end up. Ding ding ! I'm the Do-er, he's my Tagalong ) . He refuses point blank to go to therapy. Any attempts by me to be assertive ('aggressive') or explain things gently go nowhere. So....I am also stuck.

Ps I also gave up on any fulfilling sex life years ago. Not to embarrass anyone, but I tried, Lord how I tried. It's true what they say, what many women see as wanting a cuddle some men just see as foreplay. Nuff said. And as for that rubbish about telling them what you would really like , ha ha ha. Might as well speak Klingon.

[bloomie]

Cordelia - reading this I thought about something that was a part of acceptance in the significant limitations in my own relationship. I had to let go of the person I thought my H would be in our marriage. I had to see him, and us, as we truly are, not as we could be. I had hopes for this relationship for us both to be safe, loved well, be known and for us to have each other's best interest at heart that might never be realized.

I spent a tremendous amount of emotional energy and effort inviting my own H into a relationship with me I have come to painfully realize he was not ever seeking. I waited expectantly for a breakthrough, his healing, an eye-opening sentinel moment, or series of them, that would enable us to build something new, rich, deep, real, powerful together.  Therapy, marriage counseling, books, vids, talking, boundaries... years of this and still 

Realistically, we have a lot of good together. And we have come some distance. We have so much to preserve in our relationship and beautiful family. But, the growth that is there has been all up hill. A long climb. An often extremely lonely climb for me.

The longing for authentic intimacy and the once in a lifetime knowing that comes from bearing such close witness to each other's lives goes unmet as this is not something, at this point, he is capable of, or even seems interested in.  The healthier I have gotten, the wider this gap becomes.

Greiving this difference in is an ongoing process. I see the good, valuable, honorable human he is and I love him just as he is. I choose to stay and I choose to adjust the energy I expend and the battles I fight. I read recently a quote by M. Scott Peck that says that "mental health is a dedication to reality at all costs". 

For me, that has meant that I have had to accept my H as he is, right now, and give up wanting and hoping for him to say or do something he has never said or done and most likely never will. The grief is raw at times, the isolation and loss real, but I have more than survived.

You may ultimately make different decisions about what the reality of this means for you long term than I have, but your continued path to health and healing, and your faith, will lead you one step at a time.