Examples of boundaries for invalidation/gaslighting?

[wesorya]

I am at a bit of a loss as to how to manage contact with my parents right now. I'm confused about whether I am setting a boundary, or giving silent treatment, and whether the boundary is even reasonable really.

UNPDMother gaslights/invalidates & makes passive aggressive remarks. (Ignores my birthday, and then when I comment on it, says that the day I was born was happy, but my birthday now brings her sadness). I let her know that this is hurtful that she is not considering my feelings now, or on my birthday. She ignores my reply and asks if she can have my children over for baking prior to Christmas.
I say that I don't like it when my feelings and words are ignored, then am told that "if what I want" is to discuss something, then I should organise a time and place to do so and that discussion should not occur by text.
I say that I am happy to respect that no further discussion occur by text and will not respond to further discussion via text.
Today, I receive another request about the kids - via text. 

I've read the toolbox resources about invalidation etc, but I am still struggling with how to word this and would love some examples that others have/would use against chronic gaslighters/invalidators who are masters of ice queen giving zero care about anything which they do not agree with. unpdM is never overtly angry (never has any feelings really) - she just denies or ignores anything I say, or has edad do so on her behalf, and does whatever she wants, and requires that everyone go along with it.

What I want to say is that I don't want anything to do with you because I do not care to have betrayers who support harmful people in the life of myself or my children. But that will just be fuel to the fire because of course she is not a betrayer and doesn't see my unpdex-husband as harmful.

[Srcyu]

Right now I think you are doing the classic overthinking. 'If I say this, will she do that?'
My suggestion is to mirror her behaviour straight back. Which in fact, you have been doing concerning access to your children.
My feeling is that meeting up with her 'if you want' to discuss issues would be a disaster. What you want to say to her will very likely not get through and you will end up feeling no better.

I would say you are setting boundaries. This was well described by another member here recently as being how you respond to the behaviour of others rather than trying to control their actions.
Keep going with shielding your family - that's a boundary. Place another one around yourself. If they approach you in a way you don't like - protect yourself - boundary.

[Starboard Song]

UNPDMother gaslights/invalidates & makes passive aggressive remarks. (Ignores my birthday, and then when I comment on it, says that the day I was born was happy, but my birthday now brings her sadness). I let her know that this is hurtful that she is not considering my feelings now, or on my birthday. She ignores my reply and asks if she can have my children over for baking prior to Christmas.

I say that I don't like it when my feelings and words are ignored, then am told that "if what I want" is to discuss something, then I should organise a time and place to do so and that discussion should not occur by text.

I say that I am happy to respect that no further discussion occur by text and will not respond to further discussion via text.

...

What I want to say is that I don't want anything to do with you because I do not care to have betrayers who support harmful people in the life of myself or my children.

Here are some helpful definitions, as I see them:

Silent Treatment is when we stop communicating with someone as a form of punishment. No Contact is not a form of punishment: it is a decision that we can no longer safely engage with the other party to any degree, and it is NOT intended to teach them anything or to change their behavior. When we go NC, I believe we should no longer care whether they change, get better, attack us behind our backs, or are happy in life.

Boundaries are expressions of what we will or will not do, or engage with. They are not rules for other people to follow, but some people can be so toxic that it is nearly impossible to engage with them without violating your own boundaries.

If you politely end a conversation or stop replying to a written thread because it is inappropriate, that is a boundary. If you decide to go dark for a week or two because you are so angry and feel they deserve it, that is a Silent Treatment.

---

You said that what you want to do is to go No Contact. In your words, tell them you don't want anything to do with them. I assume that meant saying it and meaning it, and ceasing contact. If you really want them out of your life, and if that is financially and socially possible for you, I encourage you to read our No Contact pages, and read on our NC boards about other experiences. My wife and I are seven-years NC from my in-laws. It was hard but it was the right thing to do.

If you really only want to say you want them out of your life, but don't really want to go that route, then we are back to your starting question: how the heck do we establish meaningful boundaries for the sorts of behaviors you describe?

Great question.

I think one of challenges of boundaries is this problem: boundaries only act upon you, not the other party. If your mom says something hurtful, you can choose to end that conversation and not listen to anything further at that moment. But you can't unring that bell, or make her take it back. If she ignores your birthday, you can choose to not care but you cannot make her go back in time to acknowledge it, now can you make her apologize.

I suggest you need to do two things.

The first is to think hard about what boundaries can and cannot accomplish for you. Boundaries end behaviors (you politely end a conversation or visit because of toxic behaviors), they structure engagement (a person decides to only meet in certain places or times of day, for instance, or when a certain number of guests are expected, to avoid situations they find toxic), and they establish patterns (the other party learns you are resolute, and will not be manipulated).

The second is to steel yourself, and find new ways to maintain your strong and healthy view of yourself that is less damaged by her slights. This is HARD. I was raised by two outstanding people. My wife, not so much. We've come to realize that I feel socially safe in almost any context: even hostile ones. My wife almost never feels socially safe, even among dear friends. Fixing that gap between those two ways of being is -- I think -- part of the task before you. When you no longer judge yourself through the eyes of a toxic person, them ignoring your birthday or saying mean things no longer holds much sway in your mind. You can still be sad about their behavior, but maybe way less hurt and way less angry.

Consider reading Radical Acceptance. It helped my wife a great deal.

[pianissimo]

UNPDMother gaslights/invalidates & makes passive aggressive remarks. (Ignores my birthday, and then when I comment on it, says that the day I was born was happy, but my birthday now brings her sadness). I let her know that this is hurtful that she is not considering my feelings now, or on my birthday. She ignores my reply and asks if she can have my children over for baking prior to Christmas.
I say that I don't like it when my feelings and words are ignored, then am told that "if what I want" is to discuss something, then I should organise a time and place to do so and that discussion should not occur by text.

To me, this doesn't sound like setting boundary. For example, you care about your birthdays, then you tell your mother about it. She not only neglects them, but also uses those days for emotional abuse. The boundary here would be to not talk about your birthday with her, given she isn't safe to share how you feel about your birthdays.
Similarly, you share with her what hurts you. Again, she isn't a safe person to tell her that. The boundary is to not share those things about ourselves.

I think, in this situation, you also need an emotional boundary. Whatever emotional need you need from your mother, you need to meet them through other ways.

Boundaries tend to be permanent. If we set a boundary to a person who hurt us once, we might lift it after a proper apology. But, the boundary itself can become manipulative if we use it as some kind of punishment or passive aggression. Boundaries tend to be quite neutral too, it's more about taking care of yourself, and they are set by asking "What do I need?".

In relation to your mother, you might want to ask yourself what you need from her. If she can't give what you need, how else can you meet those needs? It's possible, once you meet those needs, you might become more resilient to you mother's jabs because she wouldn't be in your emotional space anymore. 

[Starboard Song]

 

Pianissimo is spot on!

None of that is easy, but it is all the right idea.

[Cat of the Canals]

I say that I don't like it when my feelings and words are ignored, then am told that "if what I want" is to discuss something, then I should organise a time and place to do so and that discussion should not occur by text.
I say that I am happy to respect that no further discussion occur by text and will not respond to further discussion via text.
Today, I receive another request about the kids - via text. 

I wonder if part of your confusion here is the fact that YOU have agreed to honor her boundary of "no discussions via text," while she feels perfectly comfortable to continue making demands via text.

The thing is, I doubt her boundary request was made in good faith. It's much more likely that she simply doesn't want to have that conversation with you and is hiding behind texting being the "wrong" format. And because it wasn't made in good faith, she has no problem subverting it for her own means (such as asking for time with your kids).

I've read the toolbox resources about invalidation etc, but I am still struggling with how to word this and would love some examples that others have/would use against chronic gaslighters/invalidators who are masters of ice queen giving zero care about anything which they do not agree with. unpdM is never overtly angry (never has any feelings really) - she just denies or ignores anything I say, or has edad do so on her behalf, and does whatever she wants, and requires that everyone go along with it.

I think this is the crux of it. I sense you are still trying to find the "magic words" that will finally make her care. (Most, if not all, of us have been there, so there's no shame in that.)

Think of setting this boundary less as "I am going to TELL HER that I will not be invalidated or gaslit" and more "If I sense that I'm being invalidated or gaslit, I am no longer participating in the conversation." And that boundary is for you. Not for her. It doesn't even have to be said out loud.

And frankly, given your description of her and how little concern or respect she has for you, I wouldn't be surprised if this turns into NC by sheer fact that it may be impossible to have a conversation with her without being invalidated or gaslit.

[sandpiper]

My trauma counsellor actually told our group, never try to resolve a difficult conversation by text message, do it face to face. She said that this is because so much of communication is non-verbal that it's easy for things to be misinterpreted.
So I think she has a valid point BUT I also think she's using that to snow you, because she's immediately invalidating your feelings by moving on to the bit where 'And now I want access to your children who do not make these annoying emotional demands of me and are still in that glorious stage of childhood where I can feel like I'm special and wonderful'. Yeah that'll wear off by age 12, count on it.
There's already been so much good advice here that all I can say is, 
Boundaries and NC are hard because we have to work out our feelings first.
I decided there was absolutely no point telling disordered FOO why I needed to step back from them. I talked all that out with my counsellor and with friends on these boards, many years ago.
I know you are probably on overload but one of the books that really helped me was a suggestion from these boards.
Lundy Bancroft's 'Why does he do that? Inside the minds of angry and controlling men.'
Someone said that their T had told them to read it and to substitute 'He' with 'your mother'.
It's such a good book it's actually used as a study text in a university subject on domestic violence in the city where I live - at an outstandingly good and progressive university.
Sometimes it helps to set a boundary like 'I need to take some time for myself' but honestly that usually just provokes a PD like a red flag to a bull. The mute and block settings on your phone & email etc are a better way to go.
DH worked on a technique years ago of training his parents that he was only available to speak to them one night a week and then by ignoring frantic messages (your crisis is not my emergency - put that on your screen saver) and allowing 48 hours to pass before he got back to them, it meant they looked for a more attentive audience for their drama.
It is hard untangling yourself from all this and we make a lot of mistakes before we get clear of it - be kind to yourself while you're figuring it out.

[wesorya]

Yes, thank you. You're quite right. I am trying to think of just the right way to phrase it so that she (or eDad) will understand how awful they are being, and stop being so unfathomably awful and unreasonable.
My ongoing boundaries regarding the children have been that I will allow limited contact if I am present and it is in a neutral setting. This has been ignored, had attempts at forcing by entering my home - in an invasively uninvited way through my back garden and back door; through passive aggressive suggestion whilst standing at my open front door; by using threats of removing the relationship with them; and has been weaponised as a way to destroy my relationship with eDad. So I am pretty angry with her. My eDad is dying. He has Parkinsons and is undergoing treatment for prostate cancer, and now she has destroyed my ability to even speak to him. She knows it is the last and only thing I wanted from my family and the only thing she can wreck. And she has done it.

She already destroyed the relationships with my sisters, is supporting unpdex-husband with his 2 year long family court battle which has been a farcical but horrifically stressful time which is still ongoing. He has spent almost half of this time living interstate with his mother, has had only supervised visits - current visits are "supervised" but by his own choice - by my parents. So to the court it appears he is appeasing me by having my family involved in the visits - meanwhile, he is more than aware of the distaste my mother has for me, and that she is 110% on his side and has written, and will no doubt write more glowing statements supporting his amazing parenting skills.

The hard bits of the boundaries are that I would be no contact if it weren't for my dad. I am basically NC with her by her own choice.

Pianissimo -In relation to my needs from my mother - I want her to let me speak to my dying father. I don't know how I can meet that need myself. The others I understand, and you are spot on in regards to the passive aggression and atttempts to have emotional needs met by her.

Sandpiper - I definitely agree that difficult things shouldn't be resolved by text message. My knowledge of her is that difficult things are never resolved, but at this point I prefer written evidence of her comments because she just constantly lies and gaslights - probably also in a vain attempt to perhaps claw back something with my dad. So really - if I look at my actions with some hard honesty and reflection, I can see now that I wasn't trying to resolve anything, I was trying to change someone's mind - something I know is a pointless exercise.
Thanks for the reminder about Lundy Bancroft. I read that book 3 years ago and it helped me to finally disentangle myself from UNPDex-husband. I will dig it out and read it again with M in mind. I haven't asked the older 2 kids if they would want to go and see her, they are 13 & 15 and she has certainly sensed that she is losing them - although she has never liked my eldest and has treated him as the SG whilst favoriting the now-13 y.o. It was the blatant favoriting that initially prompted  boundaries on her contact with all three of them.

[wesorya]

I do understand that it's out of my control, that I can't "make" unpdMother let eDad have a relationship with me, or "make" him let me. I guess I need to process my feelings and anger around that somehow.

I asked the older 2 kids if they wanted to do Christmas baking with unpdM. They said no thanks. So that's that anyway.
I appreciate you people here helping me process enough to see that I needed to ask them the question