Forgiveness - seeking practical assistance

[moglow]

When one has worked through all/most of the layers of anger and resentment, and has little desire to have any further contact with someone who has demonstrated repeatedly and for decades their contempt for and resentment of you ... Is forgiveness necessary, and how does one even do it? I'm stuck between what I feel is needed to find my own peace and at a complete loss how to even do it.

I don't wish mother ill, in spite of all she's subjected me to, all the chaos and pain she caused. It is what it is and I've chosen to remove myself from it. She's in her 80s and has isolated herself to the point where I honestly am not sure she has any human interaction other than when my brother stops by periodically. She seemed to derive sick joy out of others' misfortune and pain, gleefully threw herself into the middle of any situation where she could further twist a knife. I find she has few redeeming qualities and nothing draws me to her. In many ways it's as if she's already gone from this world, if in fact she ever truly joined it.

Thing for me is, how can I be forgiven my own failings if I can't find it in me to forgive her? What does forgiveness even look like?? There's not a chance I'd call or visit to tell her I've forgiven her - one of two things would occur. I see a massive dramafest and meltdown that I dared suggest she's done anything for which she needs forgiveness OR her interpretation of forgiveness that she has a clean slate to "start over." No. There's no starting over with her - I can move forward without her, but not *with* her. My need to find forgiveness isn't dependent on reconciliation or trying to build some superficial relationship only meant to crash and burn the instant she feels comfortable. We tried that, multiple times, so no.

Does any of this make sense or maybe y'all can help guide me through?

[Starboard Song]

When one has worked through all/most of the layers of anger and resentment, and has little desire to have any further contact with someone who has demonstrated repeatedly and for decades their contempt for and resentment of you ... Is forgiveness necessary, and how does one even do it?

When one has worked through the layers of anger and resentment, forgiveness has already occurred. Look it up:

• to stop feeling angry or resentful toward someone for (an offense, flaw, or mistake).
• to cease to feel resentment against

The opposite of hate, we say, insn't love but indifference. The opposite of ongoing resentment is forgiveness. We often think that forgiveness means telling the person they are forgiven, or changing our behavior towards them as though nothing had happened. Not at all. Not being angry and resentful is not at all synonymous with being trusting and vulnerable.

I've told my wife that if I had a deathbed conversation with my MIL, I'd tell her "It's OK. You did a lot of good in your life. Nothing takes your goodness from you. Not even your worst mistakes. So you can let go, knowing you [did blah blah blah well]." A lot of us think that act is forgiveness. Or joining them at Thanksgiving is forgiveness. Or that resuming contact, or writing a Very Special Letter is forgiveness. It is none of that.

If you are about done digging through the layers of anger and resentment, it is time to absolve yourself, too. There is no box left to check.

[moglow]

Wow. How could I not have grasped such a simple concept?? All this time I've thought there was something left undone, something I must do. I've been feeling flat and empty, and honestly now I've come to believe that's the absence of all that I carried around with me for so long. All that anger and pain and torment, those Great Walls of defense against her rages, the weight of her judgments and knowing I'd never possibly measure up. That's not what she wanted - she wanted to be free of me. [I would imagine she also feels rather flat right about now - she is finally free.] I have no idea what I want, it was simply never allowed.

So now I'm learning what *I* want and it's slow. It's so very new for me. I truly am the only thing holding me back.

Thx, Starboard. More than you know.

[Starboard Song]

That's not what she wanted - she wanted to be free of me.

For what it is worth, I doubt that's what she wanted. If it were, she'd be much happier now. I say it because, well, it seems awful to think that anyone would just want to be shut of us.

Is it possible she wanted was drama? That she wanted, inspired, and fed off of drama?

[moglow]

She absolutely wanted, demanded drama, created it at every opportunity. The "who" or what was immaterial to her. I've believed for some time I was not wanted and have seen little evidence to the contrary. A great many of her resentments were laid at my feet, things over which I had little input or control. Whether jealousy or whatever drove her, it does seem awful that a mother would seeming feel so little for her own child[ren]. Yet here we are.

My personal failure in that situation was insisting that I be seen or heard, trying to find positives and some way to continue a relationship with her. I spent a very long time doing just those things. The definition of insanity: doing the same thing and expecting different results. I'm seeking sanity.

[JustKeepTrying]

This is a great conversation and I would like to add to it - from a Catholic perspective since we are in the Religious/Spiritual Discussion.

My priest described forgiveness as a softening of the heart of the forgiver - not forgetting, reconciling, reuniting - but for yourself.  I was taught forgiveness was for you - not the trespasser.  You can't change their action or past behavior.  But you can forgive them and in that process let go of the anger and hardness in your heart.  Do you put yourself back in harms way - no.  But you stop carrying the burden.

Over the holiday I stood on the beach and said the following words "I release you with the love that I am and the love that I have.  I release you because what is mine will always be and what is not will never be - either way I will be ok.  More than okay. I will be joy. I will be bliss.  I will be a beautifully enlightening soul with or without you."   Ostensibly it was to said to forgive my ex and my adult DDs.  In the end as I repeated the prayer, it was to forgive myself

[Call Me Cordelia]

What Starboard said!

That flat, empty feeling might just be the beginnings of peace. It's unfamiliar territory to me too, if I'm honest. But when your peace and security is stronger than the fear and anger, then you can forgive and let that go.

The last step being to release yourself rings true to me. I'm used to working on my trauma and dealing with the flashbacks etc. I imagine it is a danger, to identify with it. My anger and resentment and grief is part of that "survivor" package. Would I be even willing to let that all go when the time comes, and just BE?

[SignificantOther1798]

Hi Moglow - yes, what you say makes perfect sense! And since this is in the religious/spiritual section, I would like to, if I may, answer your question re forgiveness from the biblical viewpoint.

The Greek word in the Bible that is translated 'forgive', literally means 'to let go' - like when a person does not demand payment of debt. So when we forgive someone, we're letting go of any resentment we have toward them, and we're also not necessarily expecting any repair to the damaged relationship. So the forgiveness is mostly for your benefit, not just your mother's.

It doesn't mean that you'll forget everything that was done against you, and It also does not mean you're sticking your head in the sand, pretending she never hurt you. And it certainly does not mean that you condone her taking advantage of you/walking all over you.

But what forgiveness does mean is that you're letting go of all your anger and resentment (for your own mental and physical wellbeing). And though you may not be able to change your mother, and your relationship, she is ultimately responsible before God for the way she speaks and behaves...

So you don't necessarily have to tell her in a sweeping statement that you forgive her. It will be something you do, maybe every time she riles you, or says something spiteful. You recognise that, at her age, it is unlikely she will change, and you just have to forgive/reset your mind after every single interaction. (Matthew 18:21,22 says: "Then Peter came and said to him: “Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him: “I say to you, not up to seven times, but up to 77 times.")

To be honest, I'm wondering what your mother's relationship with her mother and father were like, in order for her to be like this. Or maybe that's just the way she is. But I do admire you for not wishing ill of her, and trying to think things through.

You know the full extent of her resentment/contempt to you, so you might judge that it is better to stay away, to protect yourself. (No abuse victim would willingly go back to their abuser, especially an unrepentant one; there are degrees of abuse, but it's all still abuse...) Or you might just decide to keep conversations light/neutral. Or if she makes a cutting remark, you could say that really hurt you, and if she keeps on, you will leave... You have to decide what would work best for you.

Anyway, I wish you all the best for working through this, and I hope you find some reconciliation - not necessarily with your mother, but that you reconcile things for yourself too.

[Starboard Song]

I am not angry or resentful of poison ivy. It is forgiven.

But I don't touch it.

[moglow]

My priest described forgiveness as a softening of the heart of the forgiver - not forgetting, reconciling, reuniting - but for yourself.  I was taught forgiveness was for you - not the trespasser.  You can't change their action or past behavior.  But you can forgive them and in that process let go of the anger and hardness in your heart.  Do you put yourself back in harms way - no.  But you stop carrying the burden.

This speaks to me too - thank you for sharing! So many of our clergy, priests, pastors etc -and obviously countless lay people!- over the years have preached forgiveness as forgive and forget, which to me just throws the wounded back under that same yoke. I've *done* all that all my life, and it just served to deepen the damage. No sooner would I turn my back on one incident trying to put it in the past, than she manufactured another even bigger and better than the last. My head was swimming with it all and I never seemed to find level ground for long. Closing myself off from her has been my salvation but the healing is slow.

The Greek word in the Bible that is translated 'forgive', literally means 'to let go' - like when a person does not demand payment of debt. So when we forgive someone, we're letting go of any resentment we have toward them, and we're also not necessarily expecting any repair to the damaged relationship.

Thank you! That reiterates what Starboard shared above, and I appreciate the reinforcements! As to your question - mother was the youngest of her family, the protected darling who no one dared correct or contradict. It doesn't sound like she had any rules or boundaries and no one crossed her. She ran over the entire family and everyone around her from what I've been told, was a true bully from way back.

Call me Cordelia - none of this crap is easy, is it?? There's not a doubt in my mind there are countless people out there who wonder "who the hell does she think she is to treat people that way?!" Being a survivor is tough work - I am finding the less contact I have with her, the finer my peace becomes.

I am not angry or resentful of poison ivy. It is forgiven.

But I don't touch it.

Singing that louder in my head now!

[bloomie]

Moglow - I believe that there has long been a fundamental misinterpretation of the Biblical instruction to forgive. And it has done incredible damage. We have the most beautiful example of the forgiveness process in Christ's forgiveness of us. It requires two to be complete in my understanding.

I don't believe I can grant forgiveness without there ever having been an acknowledgment of wrongs done against me and contrition for those things. I do believe that it is my responsibility to remove even a hint of bitterness and ill will toward others. To be willing and ready to forgive. To give all of the hurt and angst into God's hands to manage and judge. To release the debt owed me to God and to then manage my heart and mind toward that person in a way that pleases and honors God above all else and keeps in mind all I have been forgiven of.

For most of us, this forgiveness process will never be complete in this life. There is sorrow and even uncertainty in it all because we are meant to live in unity and love with one another. It is impossible to do that with some, but it is possible to live with a clean heart and mind toward others. That is what I see as my part in the process.

I often hear that forgiveness is for us and I don't disagree with the incredible release that comes when we give the burden of the debt owed to us that we have been carrying to God. For me, this is a very personally held belief, forgiveness is out of love and obedience to God and for God above all else. Without that, I don't believe I would have the strength to do it - my sense of justice would takeover. 

Sending you so much peace as you settle into a new season with your mother. You are a fine and generous person. Filled with love and light. Thank you for your vulnerability and for starting this conversation.

Love all that everyone has shared and appreciate it so much! Very timely for me as well.

[Starboard Song]

Mo, please please please consider reading one my favorite books: The Book of Joy.

It is listed in the Resources / Books pages here. It is a conversation with Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama. These are people with a great deal of reason to hate and resent. But they truly don't. Their answers, about why and how they don't-hate are very different from each other, reflecting both their different lives and different faiths.

This book is all about finding peace in a scarred world.

[moglow]

I don't believe I can grant forgiveness without there ever having been an acknowledgment of wrongs done against me and contrition for those things.

Bloomie, maybe this is where I get stuck. It feels unfinished somehow - I do feel it's on me, even knowing good and well there's nothing coming from her. There's not one hope mother will magically have an epiphany and openly apologize or even acknowledge any deliberate harm she's inflicted. The "conversations" regarding our relationship were one after another of her spewing how I'd somehow done her wrong, let her down, not fulfilled her idea of what she was due. She's completely incapable of self reflection except as and where it benefits her image.
Thank you for your kindness and the compliments - they help so much. I'm like a sponge soaking up all y'all have to offer!

[Starboard Song]

I think forgiveness -- the letting go of resentments and anger, but neither the foolish lowering of our guard nor the forgetting of important experience -- is a gift to ourselves that pays dividends to everyone who knows us, for it makes us kinder and more gracious people. It makes us more capable people, I believe. And it is a terrible shame to deny ourselves and our communities that grace and strength for lack of restitution, or acknowledgment, or understanding.

This isn't just about our PDs. Turn on the TV. Walk around town. There are tons of things to be angry about and resent every day. And most of the antagonists will never acknowledge or understand, much less make restitution. At our bests, we can see the lack of righteousness and regret it without anger and resentment, We can at our best do this for the guy who cuts us off in traffic. For the rude person at work. For the angry customer in line. For the criminal who murdered my uncle. For the ex-spouse. And yes, for our PDs.

I don't mean to chastise those who find this hard or impossible, but I do mean to hold it up as a plausible something to aspire to and to practice.

Jesus didn't walk around grousing about all those damned pharisee's and their bullshit, but neither did he roll over in their presence. There is a special strength -- the awesome power of righteousness -- that one perceives in a person who moves with force and confidence but without lingering resentments. That's what I think we should all shoot for.

[SonofThunder]

To give all of the hurt and angst into God's hands to manage and judge.

...to then manage my heart and mind toward that person in a way that pleases and honors God above all else and keeps in mind all I have been forgiven of.

Moglow,

I will throw my loose change into the collection plate of feedback to your post. My acceptance and understanding of forgiveness, is that it is a tool-gift, given to us, in order to (as bloomie well wrote) "give all of the hurt and angst into God's hands to manage and judge." 

My ability to utilize that tool is a self-relieving, potentially-healing, source of emotional and therefore physical therapy for me. Its also a source of my worship of my creator God.  I am both recognizing, honoring and obeying when I cast my cares upon the rightful, all-knowing, loving and managing judge. 

As bloomie also well said, I believe its a 24/7 two way street with a living example, gift and result.  First the example; an act of forgiveness demonstrated and taught by God toward mankind; a constant reminder (and also limiting throttle of my actions/reactions), in which I received the benefit of God's forgiveness.  Second, the gift from God of the tool of forgiveness, given to me in order to utilize in accordance with the way Christ demonstrated.  Third, my actual utilization of the tool in presenting my "hurt and angst"  here on Earth back up the street for God to handle, as he well instructed, and as he has proven capable. 

Therefore, I believe the self-relieving, potentially-healing, therapeutic benefit that I receive from using the tool in continuous presenting (giving away) my hurts to God, is actually a positive byproduct of forgiveness, in which I so thankfully receive.

Nowhere in my above beliefs did I mention the person who has caused me "hurt and angst". Im not an elected judge to other adult humans, but I am to use wise judgement in making my own decisions. I am also not in the business of pardoning.  I do not believe forgiveness and pardoning are connected. I will forgive (give my hurt and angst to God to handle), but I will not pardon the unpardonable, intentional acts of manipulation, control, emotional and therefore physical acts of abuse that were done to me and others I know. 

I believe God (who imo is the judge), IS in the pardoning business, and I'm SO glad he is, and not me!  If a perpetrator of "hurt and angst" desires some emotional relief or a pardon, they can ask the judge, not me. The judge has already dictated the rules for pardon's imo, and that is faith in the gift of Christ's work on the cross and then afterward, heartfelt, best human attempts at obedience to Christ's teaching and also their heartfelt use of the forgiveness tool, aiding in a continuously developing, improving heart-fire of good.  I believe a way for me to possibly understand if there's been a heart-changing fire in the fireplace of a past perpetrator, is to observe the smoke that rises out the chimney. Christ's smoke is that wonderful smelling white smoke of pure hardwoods in the fireplace.  But the continuing black, foul, dangerous smoke I witness from some who claim to have changed, tells me all I need to know.

If the perpetrator of "hurt and angst" truly decides to accept Christ's gift, then they may also experience the pardon that I have already received from the judge, and also the potentially life-altering gifts of that accepting decision, which may assist to redirect that person to cease perpetrating "hurt and angst" on their targets; causing that fire to burn from a different fuel-source. 

Full circle, I believe forgiveness is between me and God, and I reap the glorious byproduct benefits.  It also serves as another method of my growing relationship with my creator, through the conversations and my faith and trust in him. Therefore imo, forgiveness requires zero contact with the perpetrator. Therefore also, the perpetrator may be deceased or remain nc, the latter of which upholds a necessary protective boundary for me.

SoT

[Call Me Cordelia]

Another seed of a thought. On the cross, Our Lord prayed: "Father, forgive them." (Luke 23:34)

He put the whole question in the hands of God the Father. He was God Himself, and there are many examples in the Gospels of Jesus offering forgiveness without this explicit reference to the Father.

But on the cross, which was the most direct and terrible sin against Jesus Himself, He does not forgive directly. He doesn't say it to the unrepentant perpetrators, who are right in front of Him. I think this is important. And what an example for us! If we are asking the Father to forgive anyone, then we are desiring union with them in God the Father. We are in fact desiring reconciliation, but also recognizing that it is beyond our power. Even putting it in the Father's hands is taking it out of ours. It's letting go. It is forgiveness!

And yes, that can be a process too. We may have to choose forgiveness more than once. We may grab for that familiar hurt and angst to make ourselves feel comfortably righteous. And then we can laugh at ourselves and ask the Father to forgive us, again.

[moglow]

But on the cross, which was the most direct and terrible sin against Jesus Himself, He does not forgive directly. He doesn't say it to the unrepentant perpetrators, who are right in front of Him. I think this is important. And what an example for us! If we are asking the Father to forgive anyone, then we are desiring union with them in God the Father. We are in fact desiring reconciliation, but also recognizing that it is beyond our power. Even putting it in the Father's hands is taking it out of ours. It's letting go. It is forgiveness!

I'd not thought of it that way - He didn't address the perpetrators directly. It's beyond His -and obviously, our- power.

Just reading back through this today - thank all of you for addressing my questions so clearly.

[SonofThunder]

But on the cross, which was the most direct and terrible sin against Jesus Himself, He does not forgive directly. He doesn't say it to the unrepentant perpetrators, who are right in front of Him. I think this is important. And what an example for us! If we are asking the Father to forgive anyone, then we are desiring union with them in God the Father. We are in fact desiring reconciliation, but also recognizing that it is beyond our power. Even putting it in the Father's hands is taking it out of ours. It's letting go. It is forgiveness!

I'd not thought of it that way - He didn't address the perpetrators directly. It's beyond His -and obviously, our- power.

Just reading back through this today - thank all of you for addressing my questions so clearly.

To CMC's insightful reply, I would quote the same portion as you MoGlow. 

Imo, Jesus had to willfully experience separation from the father in order to take the sins of past and future sins of the world, to the depths of dark-death and conquer since once and for all.  Jesus' separation from the father is that crying out experience of his, yet he had been silent as a lamb to the slaughter in the incredible torture, which both highlights just how terrible separation from the father is, and also in contrast teaches how wonderful it is to be connected with the father through Christ, therefore like Christ.  Both ways he's my hero.

I say this because as CMC stated and you agreed,  Jesus, in this separated experience on the cross, turns to the father for the forgiveness of others.  Therefore, like Jesus, forgiveness of others is between us and God, and has nothing to do with the perpetrator(s).  It also allows us to use the provided gift-tool of forgiveness with someone who is deceased or one which we are fully NC. 

Imo, perps who ask for forgiveness are seeking pardons from their victims, which is a selfish move imo, and like me, its God the father they should be addressing, as im not in the business of forgiving or pardons, as that's God's specialty. 

Sure, I may hear an apology, but with PD's that is simply them going through the motion of trying to erase their vulgar behaviors off my chalkboard to make themselves feel better, and also provide themselves a clean slate to start scribbling the next terrible episode. 

Forgiveness is me releasing my own harboring, which in itself, harboring is self-depleting of my energies and mental health, and turning my "hurt and angst" to the Father who can do what he pleases with the perp. I gain benefit in my giving away. 

SoT

[Jolie40]

the "unsinkable" movie that I posted about in "Working on Us" also talks about forgiveness

one woman saw her dad murder her mom in front of her......I think when she was a teen
she struggled for 20 yrs over that!
she talks about how she forgave her dad
she has a very specific way to forgive that anyone could do

it's worth watching the movie just to hear that

[moglow]

Jolie thank you. I finally watched Unsinkable and it reaffirmed some things for me, pointed out others i'd not thought of. The specific ways to address forgiveness will help, practical actions that I can focus on and work through.