Tips on this dynamic? It seems like you don't care ....

[Sheppane]

Hi

Any tips on this particular dynamic :

Slightly baiting/ victim type conversation from uPDsis ..me trying to be being empathic 

UPDS:Well you don't know what it's like
Me : I'm not living your life/ having your experiences but that doesn't mean I don't have empathy for you
UPDS: Well that's  easy for YOU to say ( meaning my life is easier )
Me : what do you mean by that?
Upds: back to 1st comment/ version of  ...you've no idea what it's like for me , how bad it is , you don't have to deal with what I'm dealing with ( true) ,
Me : it sounds like your implying I don't care ? And I do care and I'm sorry you are going through this
Silence
Upds: well it doesn't FEEL like you do

And on and on. Am I right there is some hidden baiting/ manipulation in there ? Or am I being cold-hearted. I had to end it there. Said i'm sorry you feel that way but I am here for you ( resisted the urge to ask all the reasons why my response / behaviours aren't " enough").
Now of course I'm feeling guilty.
Thoughts ?
How do you respond to comments that your life isn't as bad - even when there may be truth to the statement?
Really I understand how life sucks and wouldn't mind someone saying how they find it hard looking around at others misfortune but there was something about this convo that triggered my gut and felt toxic..

[Hattie]

Just to reply briefly,  I think the "self victimisation" section of the "100 traits" part of the website is relevant to this one

https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/self-victimization

[moglow]

I don't have any suggestions, can only sympathize with you on this one. Mommie dearest used to do that a lot i.e.: Her - "you have NO IDEA what's going on here!!" me - Well no, I don't, what's going on? "You should KNOW but showing INTEREST is too much for you!" No, it's not too much, you've not really talked to me. Why not tell me? "NOW you want to know?? You have NO CLUE what I'm dealing with every day!" Again, tell me ... Round and round and round she'd go, still tell me nothing other than vague comments about her excruciating pain [what do the doctors say? Nothing, they just provide meds, tell her surgery at her age isn't an option. Okay, I'm not sure what I can do or how blowing up at me helps ...], the "situation with the condition of her house" [what situation? Oh, the failure to do basic upkeep and maintenance when it's needed?]. Breadcrumbing her way through any conversation until she's worked herself up into a tidy froth over what I couldn't possibly know without her telling me - and even then, nothing I can do.

But the piece de resistance? "You don't know because you don't CAAAARE!" in a sneering nasty tone [because that'll surely make me want to engage her further. 

The self-victimization is all too true sometimes. Painting herself into a corner of her own making, then demanding everyone acknowledge a) her corner and b) their failure in somehow not seeing and fixing it for her.

[SonofThunder]

Any tips on this particular dynamic :

...me trying to be being empathic 

How do you respond to comments that your life isn't as bad...

Hello Sheppane,

Here's my tip.  You have described her as a uPDsis, therefore the toolbox is the go-to in response formulation.

Baiting should generate a MC/GR, no-JADE response, which is NOT taking the bait, yet providing a very self-controlled toolbox response. Repeat if baited again on the same subject. A PD will keep throwing out the lure, but multiple casts into the same boring spot, and the PD will go fish in a different part of the pond. 

Imo, empathy is not desirable for PD's to receive. Sympathy yes, empathy no.  There is no trophy for a PD in another's empathy, but sympathy shines that self-victimization trophy for the PD. PD's dont share trophies. 

Therefore, a response could be similar to: "that stinks, I'm sorry you are experiencing that situation" or other sympathy wording that validate the victimization (true or not who cares) will help the conversation stop or move elsewhere. 

SoT

[LemonLime]

 Oh my gosh SoT I think you are so spot-on. There is no trophy in empathy.


Sheppane, I'm sorry you're dealing with this.  I've noticed in past posts the similarities between your sib and mine.   Selfishly, it makes me feel less alone that someone else understands.  But the victim-mentality thing the PDs do is so particularly annoying and frustrating to deal with.

I've come to this with my PD sib:   She has consistently, throughout our entire lives, subtly and not-so-subtly pointed out that "Mom and Dad treated Lemon Lime different from how they treated me".   It's clear that in her mind I was treated great and she was treated awful.  And it's true that she was a harder-to-raise kid for my emotionally immature parents who are not PD but are conflict-avoidant.  So indeed in some ways she is right...we had different sets of parents growing up.   What I have never shared with her is that I too sufferred from their lack of engagement in emotional matters and that I am just now in mid-life realizing the extent of what that cost me.   

PD sib is very invested in her version of this Cinderella story, and I have come to believe she wants my acknowledgment of it in order to justify her own failures and to nullify my successes.  She NEEDS this story to be true.   She needs my upbringing to have been perfect and hers horrible so that she can justify, in her mind, why I am more "successful" than she is.   BTW I do not necessarily consider myself more successful than she is just because I am more educated and have a more conventionally high-status job.   But I believe that as much as she denies it, she sees me as more successful.  I DO believe I am more successful in relationships, and that is because I am not a PD and she is.  But that's the only way in which I do feel more successful than she is.

My sister appears to want my empathy, but what I really believe she wants is for me to say something like "Sister of Lemon Lime, you had the worst childhood and I had the best.   Any failures you had are due to mom and dad.   Any successes that I had are not mine, but are due solely to how I was indulged by mom and dad.   Heck, Sister, anybody treated as well as I was would have had the same successes, so my successes do not count.  And you were so mistreated that your failures don't count.   In fact, anything you do well is actually spectacular given your treatment by The Parents."     She wants me to hand over the reigns, utterly and completely, so that her comparison and competetiveness can stop dogging her.   It's her low self-esteem that's at play.

I don't know if it's the same for your sib.  But what I see with the PDs is that there's an endless pit of victimhood.   My gut feeling in my own case is that any empathy I give my sib will simply justify her world view, not soothe any sore feelings.  It's just my gut.   The sad truth is that they just may need the victimhood identity, as much as it appears to make them miserable.  They may actually not be able to release it, due to self-esteem issues and the need to always have in their mind an excuse for their perceived failures.
For my sib it's part of her unbelievable amount of comparison/competetiveness, which springs from low-self-esteem.  Which springs from early childhood issues, which she could discuss with my parents but refuses to do so.   Instead, it's apparently easier and safer to resent me, her younger sibling who wasn't even born for her first three years of life when much of her conflict with my mom took place.   

I think your gut is telling you not to take this bait.   And I do believe it's bait.  It may be particularly important to your sib that YOU empathize (rather than other people), because it's you she is jealous of.  You admitting she has it worse would be like hitting the jackpot for her. 

[Sheppane]

Thanks they are very helpful responses.  I hadn't thought of the sympathy / empathy difference SoT . And it's so true its like when I  am really being empathic ( there is truth to her hardship ) it doesn't wash. It's not really " enough " because I think it's sympathy she wants now that I think about it that way. Sympathy probably gives more " relief" to a victim mind set.

And if I think about a normal relationship where one person gives sympathy and understanding and the other side receives , gratefully , that seems very different. I have had those conversations with friends when they have lost relatives or been very ill or going through some difficult times. But they never respond with the accusatory youve no idea what this is like or they wouldnt dream of saying well its all easy for you if I have just been listening to them and giving my time and understanding.  This dynamic seems to be a bottomless pit of how Sheppane never says " enough".  And i say things like im really sorry for you i understand how hard it must be - and rather than getting a thanks in response its either silence ( baiting me to say more ) or even a feeling that im supposed to come up with some solution. Or the silence is a sort of uncommunicated " is that ALL you have to say ?"

And then I wonder am I over reading it. Except that my friends would never do that so I think I'm probably not.

I almost feel i need to say im SO SO sorry theres nothing i can do but that leads me down a path of apologising , for things that i am not responsible for and it feels a bit then like feeling obliged to handle her feelings for her. Which i have learned the hard way not to do. So I try hold my ground. And after then I'm full of self doubt.

Im sure there is jealousy there too Lemonlime thats definitely what it feels like.  Its almost like unless I say yes life is SO much better for me and SO  much worse for you and i feel awful about that and i feel like crying ( even though like everyone i have my own problems too - not that shed know as shed never ask) - unless i were to go on like that that nothing else I say is good enough.
I think it goes back to childhood issues and possibly her resentment of me in lots of ways - which I don't even know if she is really aware of. My mom always tells me how her heart is breaking for her ( with a not so subtle hint that I should say the same ) , almost as if the language I use is never emotional and dramatic enough.
Thank you for the reminder to look at the traits too.

[SonofThunder]

Hi Sheppane,

You wrote:  "Sympathy probably gives more "relief" to a victim mind set." 

I personally believe sympathy provides a confirmation of victimhood, and victimhood is a hardship trophy for a PD, which makes them feel valuable, helping to suppress their deep and hidden self-loathing behind the the trophy.  I belief 'relief' is a neutralizer and PD's thrive on drama and victimhood, therefore their not looking for 'relief' but rather to be a bigger victim than others. 

You also wrote: "And i say things like im really sorry for you i understand how hard it must be".

I will instead simply say something confirming to the PD that conveys "that's terrible".  I have found that even sometimes, saying "I'm sorry" as a gesture of confirmation of their victimhood, is taken the wrong way by PD's (like a JADE), as they reply back with something like "your not sorry!!" or "you SHOULD be sorry".  But taking the "I'm" out of the sentence keeps the focus on the PD and not me, which is what they desire.  I find I do this, the conversation with them remains calm and as short as possible. 

Lastly you wrote: "I almost feel i need to say im SO SO sorry theres nothing i can do..."

Similarly the PD desires to keep the focus on their victimhood confirmation, not flip the focus on me, my caring ability to assist, understand or soothe them.  Yes, as you well stated, I am not responsible therefore my reply is not an apology.

If a PD says something hurtful at me, like an insult, then I will say "im sorry you feel that way" in which there really isn't much response to that statement and the verbal attack just trails off.  Since the subject matter in this example is me, then  "Im sorry you..." is true. 

I don't believe its caretaking a PD for me to simply hear and validate a PD's victimhood (even if its false) because thats what they believe to be true.  For me, the point is to end the conversation as quick as possible, not to come alongside them.

SoT

[Sheppane]

"I  belief 'relief' is a neutralizer and PD's thrive on drama and victimhood, therefore their not looking for 'relief' but rather to be a bigger victim than others. "

Yes that makes sense SoT. Thank you for your long and thoughtful response.  Maybe why my relieving/ sympathising doesn't help. Infact maybe what they want is for me to say it's so terrible and not only that is its worse than anything else or anyone else's problems. I always get that feeling. The " I'm not saying enough " feeling. I've been told in the past by mom that I am kind and caring ( often after one of these convos with sis )  but often I don't say what other people NEED me to say. In other words my choice of words , or refusal to take on someone elses issues and caretake is not given the approval by the family. Mom always knows what i said ( but pretends she doesnt ) so I know these conversations get scrutinized after.

I find when I do " That's terrible " ( even if it's true ) the conversation doesn't flow. It goes silent. When I focus on the situation or even give what I feel to be helpful comments with a genuine intention to be supportive it takes a d tour. My word is seized on " terrible? Is that all you can say ? It's X/ Y /Z ..whatever the " worse" or stronger word is.

Then there are different aspects to the issues at different times. Right now I suspect she sees me as more financially secure than she is. She keeps saying how difficult her finances are. She doesn't ask for money. I don't have any money to give her. I am more secure than she is but I have kids and uni fees. I am sorry that she has financial worries but i cant solve that for her. I think it probably stings if she hears I've done something nice for myself. We go on vacation once a year. I don't offer to bring her. Our relationship is completely one way. No reciprocity. She never calls me. It is only based on me calling to check on her. So it would be very strange to suggest she come away with us. Which Mom has hinted at repeatedly.

I think she wants me to say i feel so guilty that i am more financially stable. I've been close to saying this to her that I feel uneasy that I have money and she doesn't but that I'm not in a position to give her any. If I had lots I could. But there is something telling me not to go there. I don't know but I feel that's not a good place to go.

My FOO always resented other people especially where money was concerned. ALWAYS conmenting on who had a new car who had a bigger house who went on nicer vacation. Money was always a source of resentment. Still is. Constant comments on what people earn.  I think it's why the " you've no idea " comment goes on repeat. What it really means is you have more money and less worries and possibly she resents that? And wants me to say it for some reason ? It seems its where the baiting always leads. As if it's the ultimate win in victimhood. I can't deny it to be true I am more secure. I don't have lots but have enough for now which I am grateful for. is that what they want? Is that where the win is?   But I don't deny her difficulties. Its not like she os not heard or acknowledged.  I sympathise with the situation 100%. Yet we still have these awkward long silences.

I don't know what it is I'm looking for here. Maybe I am feeling guilty?. Maybe I'm trying to check have I understood this dynamic correctly as a type of victimhood.? Or am I really the cold faced person that FOO think I am?
Or maybe that's me getting sucked in again and triggering feelings of guilt and self doubt - always the hook to get the SG back into the ring.

[SonofThunder]

Hi Sheppane.  You're very welcome.

You wrote:  "I always get that feeling. The " I'm not saying enough " feeling. I've been told in the past by mom that I am kind and caring ( often after one of these convos with sis )  but often I don't say what other people NEED me to say. In other words my choice of words , or refusal to take on someone elses issues and caretake is not given the approval by the family."

That paragraph is a good description of the one-sided host reality that exists with PD's.  PD's need their targets to give and give some more.  Their 'relationship' with the non is that of a parasite...a calculated predator.   

(Merriam-Webster) Parasite: an organism living in, on, or with another organism in order to obtain nutrients, grow, or multiply often in a state that directly or indirectly harms the host.

Imo, PD's deep internal motives are fueled by 'self'.  Although they can appear at times to have two-way communication, the reality is that its a one-way tightrope wire of a necessary script.  Any slip by the non off-script and the presumed two-way turns to bait, accusation, JADE, insults and the 'conversation' falls to an untimely death.

You wrote: "I find when I do "That's terrible" ( even if it's true ) the conversation doesn't flow. It goes silent. When I focus on the situation or even give what I feel to be helpful comments with a genuine intention to be supportive it takes a d-tour".

Yes exactly.  This reality is the double-bind of the scripted relationship with a PD.  For the low-conflict non, this just morphs into 'caretaking', where the non stays on-script to minimize conflict with the PD.  In that script, the PD parasite is properly (+)fed and the hosting non is steadily (-)depleted. 

Therefore, the non who becomes educated to PD's may choose to reduce any conversations with parasites to a minimum.  Therefore "I find when I do "That's terrible" ( even if it's true ) the conversation doesn't flow. It goes silent." becomes the necessary goal for the non.  When it goes silent, change subjects or leave the conversation entirely.  If the non does not utilize this medium-chill/grey-rock method of response, the non enters into the "d-tour" of the script and takes the fall. 

You wrote: "Or am I really the cold faced person that FOO think I am?.....maybe that's me getting sucked in again and triggering feelings of guilt and self doubt - always the hook to get the SG back into the ring."

You being here at Out of the FOG, being concerned, sharing, expending time and energy getting educated on the dynamic, is proof that it's NOT YOU. 

Yes, your feelings that "hook you back into the ring" are actually known by the PD.  PD's purposefully lure the non back into the drama by (+)preying on our traits at our (-)expense.

Therefore, the toolbox teaches to minimize interaction with the PD in good and necessary boundaries.  Word choices become critical self-protection.  Healthy relationship is, imo, not possible.  So if NC is not desired or impossible, then safe existence is the next best option, but thats a great deal of work, risk and energy spent with your radar on high.  Similar to the life of a gazelle sharing the same territory as the leopard.  The gentle grass-eater is required to have it's radar on max, and its muscles always on the ready for immediate takeoff. 

Im sorry you have this difficult relationship and faced with choices of a minimized relationship, non at all or a scripted caretaker relationship that is fake.  All of there are terrible choices. The 51% toolbox rule, in order for us to remain healthy, we must love ourselves at least 1% more than everyone else.  My wishes for you for wise self-protective choices because we can only change ourselves, not other adult humans. 

SoT

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello Sheppane,

I'll share my perspective on your question about your sister. For background - my FOO has some uPD's and some folks with fleas. All are convinced that no one family members should not 'rise above our station'. If one of us is more stable, more successful in an area of life, more happy, my joyful, more sane than the others, the 'family policy' was always the same: cut down the tall trees. The family motto may as well be "we are all unhappy together". 

I'm sorry - but from my perspective, your sister does not know how to converse with you in a way that preserves respect for you. You are an individual with your own life and your own life situation (including your own financial situation and so on). This is a part of many many PD inflicted families in my opinion, because of the low levels of individuation in these families.

Low levels of individuation are showing up in what you describe: you can't tell them when you go on vacation because you know how they will react. You see them hinting at you that you should include them in things that are really, your choice as an adult. This suggests some issues with their level of individuation from you.

You are certainly more than allowed to have your own financial status, your own vacations and your own self-care practices. You are an adult.

You also describe another very familiar dynamic - they want the relationship on their terms. You nurture the relationship, and they don't reciprocate. This is sad, and familiar to me.

Rather than possess the capacity to see you as your own person with your own set of problems in life (which could be things she may or may not relate to herself), she sees you as someone whose life needs "permission" to be lived, and in her mind, no one gave you permission to have anything she doesn't have yet herself.

Now you and I both know that no one needs to give you or I permission to live our lives, but there are many disordered beliefs in families, and unspoken rules. I do wonder if the unspoken rule in your FOO, is that they did not give you permission to live the life you are living. You were not supposed to individuate yet.

This might explain why you sense that they won't be happy for you that you treated yourself or went on a trip. I believe your gut feeling on this is likely very accurate.

The distorted beliefs (held by PD's) are due to the lack of individuation that is part of their disorder. My narc mother did not really understand that I had a favorite colour, and that it was not the same as her (current) favorite color (as one example). The low levels of individuation between self and other is written about in most any book and many articles that describe narcissistic personality disorders.

I also came to believe that PDs like my mother (like your sister) do not know how to process their emotions in a healthy way. When a PD lacks emotional regulation skills, it can be hard to detect because some of the time they perform really well (wearing their PD mask). But behind the mask is a lot of unprocessed anger and resentment.

The conversation you wrote in your first post reveals a lot of frustration with you. She is not happy with your responses. 

The distorted PD belief is this: you will process her anger for her and you will do this by becoming more miserable than you actually are. It is often referred to as projection. This might explain why we feel so crummy after such phone calls with certain people in our life.

This takes a toll on us. Because we are seeking attachment / connection - especially with the people we believe we should be 'close' with. To be 'close' to your sister, you need to feel guilty, which is a negative emotion. Then you will be "more like her".

Long story short, it is that old saying of 'misery loves company". But it is done in very complicated moves by PDs, and I believe it is important to trust our gut when we are learning what the PD in our life actually wants us to do. It can be a hugely upsetting realization to see that our FOO members want us to join them in their unhappiness.

In my opinion, all of this is outside of their awareness. They do not know that they are in this state. They don't know what to do with their emotions...instead, they look outwards at others (such as siblings) and demand that the siblings change...

...Especially the ones who have some stability in their own lives.

Personality disordered people do not want you to be happy until they are happy.

Since they are never really happy for very long, they expect the people in their lives to cycle through states of guilt, fog and obligation, so that in the end, the PD person was able to organize others into their disordered states.

The PDs I have known do not want to be alone in their disordered states. They want to pull others in, emotionally. That is what I see in the conversation you wrote out in your first post.

If you allow the conversation to become about how bad you feel for your accomplishments, how you are not a perfect parent, how you have flaws too and you feel guilty for anything good in your life, then the PD starts to feels better (i.e. superior). I am the survivor of such insipid emotional abuse...and it is insipid. Maybe what you are experiencing is not that extreme. I hope it isn't.

If you have had conversations  where you were baited, then from all I have read and learned about PDs, it is better to grey rock rather than engage next time. Dr. Ramani has great advice in her videos about how to manage conversations with people who are trying to bait you.

Trust you gut. You wrote that you think they want you to feel guilty. Trust that. 

You can have a relationship with a uPD but not the one you would like to have.

Trees

[bloomie]

Sheppane - something I keep thinking through in your thread and this discussion is that you are sincere in seeing the actual difficulties of your sibling's life. And you offer words of encouragement from your heart. Sincerely.

And you are faced with the love you are showing and the support you are offering, to the best of your ability, not being enough.

When faced with an endless, bottomless, vast cavern of need that all of our gentle words and kind gestures will never, ever fill isn't it love - for yourself and others, to value what you offer and be empowered in it?

When faced with:

UPDS:Well you don't know what it's like
Me : I'm not living your life/ having your experiences but that doesn't mean I don't have empathy for you
UPDS: Well that's  easy for YOU to say ( meaning my life is easier )
Me : what do you mean by that?
Upds: back to 1st comment/ version of  ...you've no idea what it's like for me , how bad it is , you don't have to deal with what I'm dealing with ( true) ,
Me : it sounds like your implying I don't care ? And I do care and I'm sorry you are going through this
Silence
Upds: well it doesn't FEEL like you do

By line 3 it might be time to step out of this. Would it be self respecting to say something like: "I offer you what I have to offer in love and sincerity and am seeing this is not the best fit for your needs." And then step away from the round robin of accusations and atmosphere of what seems to be punishment because you are stable and happy. It really seems you are being scapegoated here and I am just wanting to point that out on your behalf.

Something that is invaluable to me about this community is that this is the only place in my life where people are consistently for me and looking at what can often be really confusing and convoluted family dynamics from the perspective of what is best for me. Not for my sibs, my parents, my friends, but for me.

So in that spirit, I ask is it benefitting you or your sib for you to enter into these unproductive conversations where you are pouring out the best of yourself onto long parched earth where it is immediately absorbed and someone lifts up their empty hands and says..."more, more, more, that's not enough!!!"? If you could craft the most eloquent, beautiful, response that ever was to your sister's latest difficulty, would it, could it actually ever change her world view and satisfy such a sense of high entitlement? Ever?

One foundational core value is that I try to as often as possible only speak with sincerity. So, for me, what that looks like with high conflict, oppositional family members is offering what I have, one time, and if deemed not enough... I gently step away.

Just some thoughts!

[Leonor]

Hi Sheppane,

I feel for you; this is a similar situation to my dh and sil.

Here's another approach to conversations such as these:

Sibling: "I don't know why I even bother telling you, you don't know what it's like."

("Yes I do," "I may not, but ...," "I don't know what you want me to say ..." are all unhelpful JADE responses.)

Sheppane (kind but calm): "Hmm."

Sibling: "I always had it harder than you blah blah blah."

Sheppane: "Hmm."

Sibling: "It's like you don't even care."

Sheppane: "I'm sorry you feel that way. I do care about you. We'll talk again soon, ok?"

And. hang. up.

She is in so much pain that she cannot see you. She cannot validate you. And your parents played you off one another for so long that she cannot conceive of you as a separate person - to her, you are simply a projection of your parents. So she feels it's fair, even necessary, to unburden all that sadness and rage she holds towards her parents onto you. It's kind of like a movie audience throwing popcorn at the screen.

If you absorb it, feel guilty about it, argue or engage with it, you're not individuating - you're buying into that projection. You're sacrificing your own realness in order to make things "right" for your sister by accepting the projection of your parents. It's like you're the actor, and you go and stand in front of the movie screen to get hit by the popcorn.

Except it's not popcorn, it's abuse. You are not a projection, you are not a golden child, and you are not a sacrificial lamb. You are not a punching bag. You are not helping, convincing, supporting, empathizing, or alleviating your sibling's suffering by standing in that projection. If that "worked," your sister wouldn't continue to abuse you. It doesn't work because it doesn't have anything to do with you.

The "hmm" is an acknowledgement. You hear her. She can continue if she wants. But when it's clear that she is focusing her rage onto you, when she is escalating, or as soon as you realize the dynamic has returned, it's time to step out kindly but firmly. Express sympathy if you want: "I'm sorry you're upset", reassure her if you want: "I do care about you," and then draw that boundary, "We'll talk soon" and then step outside of the situation: hang up.

Then go do something soothing, healing, and joyful for you. Go take a walk in nature. Draw a bubble bath. Pour yourself a cup of tea. Knit or paint or do something creative. Sage the room. Surround yourself with softness and peace and joy.

You are not a projection. You are not a punching bag. You are a real, lovable, and loving human being.

[Sheppane]

I really needed all of this. I think I had slipped back into FOG without noticing,  sneaky, eh ?!

The individuation is so true tressgrowslowly. And the reminder that I have permission to live whatever life i wish. I thought I had separated myself out from that but I think this most recent flare of FOG shows me I must have forgotten. I haven't been on here in a while and it's so good to be reminded of these things, and see how they creep up again.

"You also describe another very familiar dynamic - they want the relationship on their terms. You nurture the relationship, and they don't reciprocate. This is sad, and familiar to me."

Yes ! On their terms. Im sorry you have this too. And if not I feel like I've done something wrong. I've got better at this now as in I feel less guilty than I used to but I can also see how this can be a bit of a trap. As things were going well for last while - I was happily getting on with my life, they with there's- I had begun to wonder were things actually getting " better".  So I did more to nurture things from my side , did some nice things with them over the holiday season ( I also have a real fear of futire regret when they die that I will feel its too late now and maybe I could have put more effort into doing nice nurturing things with them) ..And they were pleasant. Other than minor annoyances it all went well. But really when you look at it these events are all very staged and manufactured. They seened to genuinely enjoy themselves which i took at face value - but its also posdible I scored points for - in their eyes- doing a nice " family together" thing which gave them a rush, and me a buzz of approval.

I'm really curious about the PD mask thing. That describes my sis exactly. She performs so well and has a successful jobs , lots of friends. Which makes me sometimes think she's not fully PD. It's mainly in her interactions with me and very occasionally FOO - though less in recent years as she has now switched to GC and I have become SG . I wonder does that switch often happen when one person " sees" the dysfunction and tries to break away ? Do the roles switch ?

But it can also stir up a lot of selfvdoubt in me because unlike other stories I read in this forum she functions very well in general - when things are going well. I think your point about the deep seated anger and resentment is very correct. Would that row in with a sense of superiority I wonder ? It's always hard to overtly detect but it's always there in a smug type of way, quite covert.

Unspoken rules ..yes I think there were probably a lot. I an going to try list them as it's something I've never really done. Our FOO were the enmeshed " we are so close " family interspersed with private raging and shaming but perfect in public.

Bloomie thank you for your support too. This site is amazing. After I posted my initial reaction was to minimise myself. So to have these replies from people who clearly understand the dynamic - and can summarise it to me clearly when I can't see it is super helpful. I think that's what happens me , I slip slowly , subtley back into FOG over a few weeks without knowing it , then I get thrown sideways by something and I'm so far in the sticky swamp I can't actually see what's going on with clarity.

So grateful to have others here who can 

" One foundational core value is that I try to as often as possible only speak with sincerity. So, for me, what that looks like with high conflict, oppositional family members is offering what I have, one time, and if deemed not enough... I gently step away."

I love this. And I think to guided by a value or principle is so helpful - and simple. Thank you for translating that into an alternative reply in the conversation. I struggle to find the words - even if I can latch onto the vague idea of what I want to convey I always feel let down by language. I don't know maybe that's a trauma thing or a freeze response. But I would love to write down some phrases to use in this kind of situation in the future.

Leonor thank you. Weird I had never thought of " I'm not sure what you'd like me to say " as a JADE response but I see what you mean. I sometimes say that to try and put things on an even keel and show with kindness that I am genuinely trying to be of help and it seems that she does not want my help ( probably true as what she does want is me to rev up the victimhood). So I say it to try and let her see that I am trying but I am not being met with any sense that she wants my support. My attempt to calmly hand it back to her I suppose,  and to give her am opportunity to tell me what it is that she wants from me. But usually it provokes a long silence or a sigh. In a way it would be easier I think if she was more of a Rager and less of a silent sighing eye- roller. I find passive agressive responses so much harder tp deal with as it's always so easily denied. 

The popcorn analogy is great. And the reminder to drop it and go do something for me.

My head has been in the FOG for days now - even though I have no communication from FOO or sis. I need to break out of it. Haven't had an episode like this in a long time. Funny how easy it is to slip back in.

You guys rock  thank you

[nanotech]

Thanks they are very helpful responses.  I hadn't thought of the sympathy / empathy difference SoT . And it's so true its like when I  am really being empathic ( there is truth to her hardship ) it doesn't wash. It's not really " enough " because I think it's sympathy she wants now that I think about it that way. Sympathy probably gives more " relief" to a victim mind set.

And if I think about a normal relationship where one person gives sympathy and understanding and the other side receives , gratefully , that seems very different. I have had those conversations with friends when they have lost relatives or been very ill or going through some difficult times. But they never respond with the accusatory youve no idea what this is like or they wouldnt dream of saying well its all easy for you if I have just been listening to them and giving my time and understanding.  This dynamic seems to be a bottomless pit of how Sheppane never says " enough".  And i say things like im really sorry for you i understand how hard it must be - and rather than getting a thanks in response its either silence ( baiting me to say more ) or even a feeling that im supposed to come up with some solution. Or the silence is a sort of uncommunicated " is that ALL you have to say ?"

And then I wonder am I over reading it. Except that my friends would never do that so I think I'm probably not.

I almost feel i need to say im SO SO sorry theres nothing i can do but that leads me down a path of apologising , for things that i am not responsible for and it feels a bit then like feeling obliged to handle her feelings for her. Which i have learned the hard way not to do. So I try hold my ground. And after then I'm full of self doubt.

Im sure there is jealousy there too Lemonlime thats definitely what it feels like.  Its almost like unless I say yes life is SO much better for me and SO  much worse for you and i feel awful about that and i feel like crying ( even though like everyone i have my own problems too - not that shed know as shed never ask) - unless i were to go on like that that nothing else I say is good enough.
I think it goes back to childhood issues and possibly her resentment of me in lots of ways - which I don't even know if she is really aware of. My mom always tells me how her heart is breaking for her ( with a not so subtle hint that I should say the same ) , almost as if the language I use is never emotional and dramatic enough.
Thank you for the reminder to look at the traits too.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Sheppane,

I am glad we are able to help through this avenue - it IS sneaky isn't it? The way that this stuff pops up again even after we understand PDs and FOG. I so appreciate what you and others have written here.

From lived experience (and then validated by books and articles on the topic of NPD) I would say that yes, they have a mask that they wear - and in public they can be extremely 'effective'. They can hold down a job and do all sorts of things in the community, and then whoosh, you look at how they treat their relatives, or friends, behind closed doors and its like Jekyl and Hyde. Why? how?

The public performance gives them the supply they seek, but at home, behind closed doors or when others are not looking, they 'offer up' their more damaging behaviours. I would watch my mother in public, be one way. It was very difference once she was back at home, on the phone with me. As soon as she was in a situation where no one was observing her, the real behaviours came out. 

I have come to see all of it as manipulation. In public they are performing - showing people how smart and confident they can act, how confident they are...going for promotions or taking on projects etc...

In private, i.e. one on one with a family member, they completely manipulate the rules of healthy one on one interactions. The realm of one on one relating is where they flail.  (such as the phone calls you have with your uPD sister) Where one might you know, be supportive or express authentic empathy - all of that is absent in the PD when you're with them one on one.

In public, they can perform and act as if they are like the others around them. But One on one I felt how little concern for me there really was. In public there was praise for things I had accomplished (without her support) and in private, there was no concern for me at all. None. Long phone calls were spent telling me what a bad person I was, and left me shattered emotionally.

After long phone calls with her, it would take 3-4 days to re-regulate. My mind would work hard to re-regulate after being told I was bad and wrong for 2-3 hours via telephone...by the person that society told me cared about me the most. Eventually I went NC, and am working to heal from all of it. 

I went No Contact before there was much awareness at all about PDs and FOG. Now we understand these things much better than back then. Being dysregulated is finally being talked about - being gaslit by a PD is finally being talked about. Some of us endured that for decades without having a name for it. I am grateful for Out of the FOG and everyone online who keeps educating others about this form of abuse.

Some people here are in contact with their FOO and some of us are not. Some endured discards for standing up to the abuse. There is a lot of wisdom in this Out of the FOG community. I am glad you are here again.

I do understand the hope you had that perhaps your FOO members had grown, and that there was more there now. When I read what you wrote next, I nodded - it was really just at the surface (you wrote "staged and manufactured"), they were pretending to be more grown than they actually are. You grew and healed - but in that same time frame, it sounds like they have not really changed.

Many of us here on the forum have watched our dysfunctional FOO members stage and manufacture an event that makes them look like the "normal" "healthy" family. I have come to believe that it is very common, with untreated PDs - they perform 'normal' and manufacture opportunities to look normal to others.

I think it is very important for us to be educated on this so that we don't get sucked in. Because as you and I and others here know, after we get sucked in, the damage starts - that is when they do things that cause us real emotional pain and damage. Then we go back to our own lives and have to heal from new wounds. It is all so exhausting. Thankfully there is a community here that gets it.

It sounds like you had reduced contact with your sister in the past, and that probably gave you breathing room to do things that are easier to do when she's not involved. This is the sad reality of healing from the dysfunctional FOO. That we have to distance ourselves from their PD in order to take good care of ourselves.

Trees