I am sinking

[escapingman]

I am not sure how much more I can take. I am on my knees. I am worried about DD and how badly traumatised she is by STBX. She wanted me to buy some clothes for her and sent me links to some sites, one of them was one I never heard of so had to search about it. With some research it was a well known chinese site with very bad reviews and also bad working conditions for their workers, and I mean bad. I told her I aint buying from there so we need to fins another shop. She responded by running to her room, slamming her door and screaming. Then starting messaging me that I am mean and this and that and that she wants to see her mum and will now message the social worker. That she can use these threats is a real worry and that the SW has put her (and GC) in a position where they think they can be in charge is appalling. I am almost 100% sure that DD also lied about my new friend last week just to make sure I don't get to close to anyone.

I am not sure how much of this I can take. I have no one for support and I am sinking. I really am.

[JustKeepTrying]

Breathe EM.  There will be swings, highs and lows.  Real lows.  And don't forget she is young and even not in this situation, could react this way.  I did, my daughters did and I know my grand daughter will. 

Be the willow tree for her.  Strong yet bendy.  Go with the flow but know that your roots, your love, are still there.  She will come to love the support, shade, stability and comfort you provide

[escapingman]

Thanks JKT.

Looking back to yesterday I can see I have done some healing although it was tough. I went to my chair, sat down and took deep breaths and waited it out. In the end DD came and apologised and asked for a hug. She is still not happy with me saying no to her online shop and I promised her to look into it again to see if I could see any reason I was wrong yesterday.

My worry is that during one of her tantrums that she will message her mum or the social worker without realising what kind of damage that could make. I can't be sure she didn't already messaged her mum yesterday to query her about the shop. I told her that it will be incredible difficult for me to fight her battle with her if I don't know what she wants and if she tell me something and goes and tell the social worker something else. I am in two minds about how to proceed with this, shall I keep backing her up that she doesn't want to see her mum and risk her going behind my back and suddenly say she wants to see her? Or do I cut her loose and tell her to handle this herself? If I leave it to her I am afraid that they will just overrun her and go against whatever she wants.

This whole situation is just so hard to deal with. I could never imagine that the social worker would carry on the abuse on behalf of STBX.

[square]

You can have this discussion with DD. You can say "yesterday, you were thinking you'd rather live with mum. Tell me how you're feeling about that." She might say she didn't mean it and you can say "you mentioned telling SW you wanted to. If you want to, let's talk about it. If you don't want to, what do you think would happen if you told SW you did?"

You can also mutually brainstorm ideas for how both of you can react next time she is triggered. Obviously the answer isn't "capitulate to her wants" but she may tell you that something you do or say isn't helping and that can be useful to know.

As for her part, it might be useful for you and her to walk through the process of her being upset and realize some things about it, like she may feel like she is going through a catastrophe but it's good to remember she always calms down at some point. If she can remember that the feeling will pass, it may help (though it may be hard to believe in the moment). You guys can picture together how she would rather get through one of those outbursts. For example, if realistic, could she leave the house and walk around the block till she calms down? Could she go to her room (slamming the door is okay?) and be left alone till she calms down? Could she put on headphones or play video games till she calms down?

Whatever it is, you guys can figure out together, and it would be an ongoing discussion with plenty of failures. But these are useful discussions to help her foresee the natural consequences of her behavior, formulate an idea of how she wants to behave and relate to you, and most of all to recignize her own feelings in the moment.

You can surely relate to her strong feelings as well, EM, as you also feel overwhelmed and hopeless when things go awry.

[JustKeepTrying]

 

All that square said plus one

This is an opportunity for you and her to learn and practice emotional regulation, mindfulness and work together to be stronger.  Pitch it to her like that and she may just buy in

[escapingman]

Thanks both of you.

DD told me already yesterday when she had calmed down that there is no chance she would want to live with her mum and that she never want to see her unsupervised. I think she got an urge to see her mum (as she wants her mum to be) as a reaction to not get her way with me. She knows what her mum is like and she knows there is no prospect to that ever changing. But I need to get her to understand she can't threaten me with telling people she wants to see her mum just to upset me, I made it absolutely clear to her that if she wants to see her mum she is allowed. But this was a massive improvement on her side as well as she only stayed in her anger for about an hour and that she wanted hugs both last night and this morning. I am going to see what kind of state she is when coming home to see what can be discussed, I don't want to risk getting back to the same argument again so soon.

[square]

Keep it in mind, EM, that on your part you will not take this bait next time.

If she threatens you "I'm going with mum" you will not panic, just sigh inwardly and put on your Calm Competent Dad hat and manage the real situation at hand (young teen struggling with emotions) without worry for the false one (SW! STBX! Courts! Custody!).

[hhaw]

I have such compassion for you and DD....and GC.  Sometimes for stbx when I'm not focused on the harm she does to your children.  Stbx is truly trapped in her reactivity/mostly fight survival brain, I suspect.  Terrible way to live.  Terrible.

You're still trying to gut your way through this, think your way through this situation and IME it makes it harder to regulate emotions, not easier. 

I hope you find some online or 3d support to calm yourself, engage  your Parasympathetic Nervous System and shift out of fight or flight mode.  This emotional roller coaster would be less debilitating, I suspect.  I truly don't know, bc I went through it the same way as you. 

It's too darn painful to live in fight/flight/fawn or freeze and I suspect you're in freeze more often than not.  I don't know, but strategizing and fighting, while appearing calm and consistent, is a trick, ime.

Your nose is on the Pebble, EM.  I know that much.  It would be a relief if you learned to create spaciousness around your problems so you could see them clearly, but also see the other pebbles and rocks and trees and streams, etc.  The possible solutions are available, along with your view of the problem.  You have to figure out how to get some perspective.  You can't think your way to it, ime.  It's impossible, ime.

I hope you look up strategies for calming your Nervous System, find a couple you believe in and maybe enjoy, then practice them with blind faith.....just practice, EM.

There are so many strategies online, EM. 

[escapingman]

hhaw, I am in complete freeze mode. I know I can't stay like this but my brain just shut down and I just can't get anything done. DD is really not helping at the moment as I try to clear the house, she makes a mess in the room I just cleared. I constantly need to chase round and turn off lights and appliances she turns on, just an hour ago she started an electric heater in one room and left. She is in such a mood as I am not shopping from this website she wants to shop from, I still have my principles even times are hard. I am not going to let her sulk or threaten me to get her way, that would not show a good example and teach her the wrong things.

I am going to try to get through the coming months, for financial and other reasons I have to wait, then I will get myself and DD private help. I hope.

[escapingman]

I was really worn out yesterday and this morning. I am trying to clean the house, pack up items, get the house ready for selling and everywhere I clear up DD comes after me and creates a mess. I am struggling to get her to get into a shower and to just generally clear up after her. After she went to school I took a couple of hours off work to do some cleaning, and it really gets to me when I find sweety wrappers everywhere, lolly sticks under the cussions in the sofa. I was very short with her this morning, I am just at the edge. She felt it and I think she knows as she didn't challenge me. I think even us non's somethime get overwhelmed and need to vent a bit. It doesn't help that the SW is breathing down our necks and do anything for DD to see STBX, despite being told she doesn't want to.

I have done lot's of self reflecting and trying to find myself lately, leaving the PD to one side as I know that now, I need to know why I ended up as I did and dissect my history. I can see loads of things in my childhood that really set me up for this. I also found some really good videos and articles that has opened my eyes about myself, I will create a new topic for this later.

But the roller coaster goes on, up and down, but in the right direction, I think.

[SonofThunder]

EM,

At Out of the FOG, you have shared much of your up and down experience in the divorce, and also your hill and valley ride of thoughts and feelings in this process.  That can be a wonderful asset to have an outlet here and with others, to speak the raw truth. 

If you have ever ridden in the very back car of a rollercoaster, it can be an interesting new experience to turn your head around and watch where you've been vs the hills and valleys ahead.  What you will notice looking behind, is that you have always been going up hill, cresting the short top, or going downhill. In fact, you will also notice that the downhill runs provide the energies to experience the uphill run. 

Eventually the coaster pulls into the only level portion of the track, slows down, and stops, and we are permitted to disembark the coaster and find another ride, or just relax on a bench for a while with a buttery popcorn and a cold soda while we watch others on their own coaster ride.  Enough adult-riding of that coaster and we gain the experience that causes our adrenaline to not pump so fast; which for a rollercoaster, can create undesired boredom.  But in a divorce, that repetitive memory can be a great asset. 

Therefore, you've now ridden this emotional coaster for a while. In mindfulness, the hills and valleys should be expected, and you probably are starting to recognize similar detailed experiences on this repetitive ride.  When time permits, I recommend you move to the back car, and as the coaster is racing up and down the same emotional hills, start viewing the ride facing backwards.  Reread your posts and you will see the pattern of up's and down's; of DD's ups and downs, of stbx's drama moments and short periods of cresting silence. You can use these repetitive experiences to possibly lower your adrenaline, so that this divorce coaster gets a little boring, and you find yourself daydreaming, planning, focusing on, and then doing the next fun adventure, even if that adventure is the peace of a park bench. 

This long ride will eventually come down that last hill, around the final bend and to a quick stop.  It will EM 😊.  Kids may want to immediately run to another coaster, as they are simply adrenaline junkies. PD's may desire to stay on the same thrill-ride or immediate switch rides, so they don't have to face themselves and their own thoughts on the park bench.  But we well-balanced and experienced adults, learn to accept and appreciate the contrast of both the thrills and that bench with a cool beverage in hand.

Ive not experienced any coasters which end on an uphill climb, but rather a downhill run, curve to slow down and then leveling out for the departure. Im expecting my own to end on a downhill moment and then an emotional acceptance.  I will probably not be thrilled by the final settlement, but the value of that park bench, popcorn and soda will have skyrocketed by that time, so I will gladly accept the end, knowing it leads to the calm bench of peace while I daydream over the rest of the park map of my life ahead. 

Hoping you can find peace going forward, by looking back at where you've been,

SoT

[JustKeepTrying]

SoT - that is a beautiful analogy and yes, I found myself remembering all those coaster days - not just the marriage but the actual coasters I've ridden - and I felt it.  Thank you.

"Imagine you are in a boat.  Walk towards the back of the boat and what do you see?  1) What is the wake of the boat? The rushing water is your past.  2) What is propelling the boat forward?  The present moment energy  3) Can the wake propel the boat forward?  No"  metaphor by Alan Watts 

The lesson is give up your personal history.  Your past can not dictate where your life goes - your family stories, experiences do not propel your boat forward.  All those events are just the past trail of your life.  Not your present moment energy.  Only the present moment energy is what propels the boat forward.

You are an amazing, caring, thoughtful, intelligent father and man.  You got this.

[escapingman]

SoT and JKT, thanks for your kind words.

JKT, I am not really trying to go back all over my past and find reasons but to find myself. I think I have found enough to actually start knowing who I am, not the one I was before STBX but who I genuinely am. I always tried to fit in and find ways to fit in, but I have always gone my own way in the end. I realise that my entire journey with STBX was me going my way and her becoming a passenger. The bits she was in control over, the material bits, I could not care less about so it was always easy to let her have her way. The other bits, experiences, travel, work, food, everything, I was in charge of and she just tagged along, and tried to make it as difficult as possible. I have finally found something I can identify as, I think I am a Sigma Empath. WOW. It just explains it all, I am also an INTP which makes sense as it seems like Sigma consists of INTP and INTJ. This is almost a bigger lightbulb moment than when I started finding out about narcissism.

[square]

I also feel relieved to find something I identify with, that helped me individuate from the others I tried to fit in with.

I don't identify as an empath, but like you I identify as INTP. I am still in the process of "owning" what I am and sorting out what I want to embrace vs work on.

Interestingly, in my case, I have not found my husband to discourage those parts of me, but oddly enough, my mother (who tested as INTP with INTJ traits back in the 90s). I've noticed I feel shut down when I try to dive deep into a topic and grapple with it the way I like to think. I have some shame on that but feel so much better knowing I'm nit broken, just a particular personality type of which there are more out there - and additionally that even some non-INTPs can appreciate.

Well, all that is to say I personally think it's worthwhile to pusue, and if you're anything like me, after a while you'll feel satisfied that it makes sense to you (whether your understanding is fully correct or not) and move on to the next question, feeling increased in your overall understanding of the world.

[escapingman]

Square, I feel it's very important to find out who I actually am. As for you, it really helps. Instead of trying to fit and and do what's expected, I now know why I always felt bad when doing so. I have always gone my own way, mor or less at least. When I have tried to fit in and follow someone else's rules it has gone terrible wrong, for me a fresh example is the court case with STBX. I was to deep down in the mud to act on behalf of myself and let my legal team drive things, even when I felt deep down it was wrong. The things I asked for to be done was not common practice and they ignored me, I should have stood my ground, but I was completely new in the legal world and not strong enough to fight them.

Yesterday I got overwhelmed with such strong feelings of anger against the whole system and how unfair everything is. To manage all the anger and keep it under control I had to take the edge of it with some of my unhealthy coping strategies. Today I feel, I need to channel that anger and not numb it, I need to channel it in to a fight, a fight driven by me. I need to be the mastermind behind the fight, but I need an alpha person to act on my behalf in the court room as I cannot string my sentences together and think fast enough when under pressure.

I was on my walk today and really got thinking and got a lot of missing pieces added together, I started walking with a smile and felt a lot of weight just lifted from my shoulders. Then a woman past me on the other side of the street, she looked at me and gave me a big smile. That made my day.

[NarcKiddo]

Yesterday I got overwhelmed with such strong feelings of anger against the whole system and how unfair everything is. To manage all the anger and keep it under control I had to take the edge of it with some of my unhealthy coping strategies. Today I feel, I need to channel that anger and not numb it, I need to channel it in to a fight, a fight driven by me.

EM - I know you don't mean an actual physical fight, but not for the first time when reading your posts I have wondered whether you have ever tried boxing. Hitting a heavy bag has been so therapeutic for me. Physically getting out some of the fight reaction in a safe way has been great. I wonder if it might help your daughter, too, if you were in a position to get a punch bag or find a gym that has one. Just a thought.

As for finding out who you actually are - I hear ya. I have no idea who I actually am and what I like.

[hhaw]

I second the idea of EM joining a kickboxing or other martial Arts class with his DD.

Not only does it relieve tension, build core strength and build confidense it provides real world skills one doesn't get from spin class or weight machines.

Jumping rope before class, to warm up and build stamina, can be a miracle if one needs those things.

[hhaw]

EM:

A couple of things I thought of while catching up on this thread:

Figuring out our causes and conditions leading to people pleasing, personal sabotage and feeling helpless to change our situations is important, BUT....
Learning to create enough emotional distance to see ourselves, our unhelpful strategies and places we might have turned off or avoided marriage to a PD is necessary to overcome and heal ourselves from within, esp our unconscious beliefs.

The rage you feel is both necessary and appropriate, as it can provide impetus to move out of an untenable situation.

It's not a good space to notice and identify our internal world, what's really going on for us and to cultivate a habit of calming our Nervous System to widen our window of resilience.

On the whole, anger is better than feeling shut down and paralysed, ime.

Next is noticing anger popping up, then choosing to have it or let it float by without grabbing onto it.

Every emotion is outside of who you were born to be.  You were born a perfect being, whole and amazing.

Emotions aren't you. 

The trick is, ime, remembering who you were born to be, before all the negative software was installed by your FOO.  That is who you are.....like the blue sky.  You're always present and available.

Understanding feelings are temporary and NOT who we are is huge.  One can notice them and let them pass.....like storms, clouds and fog......theblue sky is always present, even when feelings/the storm/fog/rain appear to be all there is.
Even though one has been trained up to believe their feelings are their personality and soul...... they're simply not.

Imagine how couemrt will go once you're able to identify the mission, issues and probable solutions without getting yanked off center by fear, anger, shut down and despair.....or maybe recovering from those feelings more quickly bc you're practicing awareness, noticing and leaving them or not picking them up in the first place.

You're learning peace isn't depebdent on what other people do to you.  Peace comes from your perceptions and ability to calm your Nervous System to fully integrate your brain with all its amazing skills and problem solving abilities....training your entire being to skip reactivity and distracting emotional rabbit holes in favor of emotional distance, the ability to remain or return to Observer mode, not take things personal in order to strategize and bring the legal game to check mate with economy of motion AND without muddying the already chaotic waters the PD is creating.

Standing outside the PD chaos, even when your children are suffering, is the ability to cultivate calm and spaciousness within.....to get your nose off that Pebble to restore your view of the entire playing field with allll it's other pebbles, rocks, trees and streams.....and of the blue sky.....of yourself.

Remembering who you were born to be comes with practe and everyone always practices, they never stop.  Even elderly monks practice every day and that's the journey, ime.

To practice, fall off the horse, remember how to put it away fearing into the future and despairing into the past to be here, now.  Here and now are all we ever have.  That's an important truth that goes in and out if focus during distressing times, but can you see how noticing your distress, practicing calming habits to restore brain integration and all your problem solving skills to best strategize is valuable in your situation ANY situation, really?

To KNOW you aren't the despair or rage or regret and turn back towards what's helpful and brings you joy after doing all you CAN do?

If you're going to get what you consider a less than optimal outcome.....would knowing the time you spend with yourself, your child and job/friends/work outs can be done through cultivating the ability to put all the stories you tell yourself, and esp the stories other people tell you, to restore your ability to enjoy what's in front of you now........
unmolested by your history or fear of what might happen.

Nothing outside of yourself will bring you peace, ime.

Blaming the toxic people won't bring peace either, ime. In fact, it keeps us hooked into feeding ourselves TO them.....gifting them our attention to our detriment, excluding joy, excluding focus on uplifting things and people.  Worst of all, ime, it prevents us from really SEEING our children, looking them in the eye and connecting without all the PD distractions, ime.

That's a regret I hope you can avoid, bc it's available to you now.  Every moment is a choice, EM.

Calming your Nervous Sysyem....learning to calm your Nervous System isn't about becoming a Zen master, meditating all the time.

IME, it's about cultivating ONE split second BEFORE reactivity carries one down an emotional rabbit hole.....where all one sees is the one vexing pebble bc one's nose is ON that Pebble, excluding the ability to SEE anything else, ime.

And it feels like alchemy or magic when one manages it.  Becomes aware of it.  Can SEE it, along with that vexing Pebble, ime.

It's just biochemistry and the ability to cultivate that split second before the biochemical hijack takes one down the fight it flight rabbit hole.

Sometimes I SEE it and choose that rabbit hole.  Sometimes I avoid it and choose calm.

Sometimes I still get swept into the hole without choice, but at least I'm aware and can cultivate and practice more choice around it.

No time to edit.  Excuse the errors and parts not making sense.

[escapingman]

Thanks hhaw and narckiddo,

What this exercise of finding out I am a Sigma Empath, or INTP-A (or INFP as I seem to be close to) or maybe I am not a personality like this and only think I am. I don't know. But what I do know is that I need to put more trust in myself and go for my own beliefs. I often agree to do something I know is wrong or not the best way just because I can't be bothered to argue or upset the dynamic. I have to stop that.

Worst of all, ime, it prevents us from really SEEING our children, looking them in the eye and connecting without all the PD distractions, ime.
This is very difficult as I have no contact with GC and probably won't for a long time. That the SW supports that is what's making me incredible angry, not with STBX but the system. STBX is just a sad story that is in the past for me, if I saw her it would be like seeing a ghost.

Regarding martial art or boxing, great ideas but not possible right now due to a bad back. But I can't tell you how much it has improved since STBX moved out the house. I am now doing long walks every day which really helps clearing my head and also get some good thoughts going. I am about to join a gym but as hopefully we are moving in the next months I don't want to tie myself up in a gym at the wrong location.

[square]

EM, one of the things I have been grappling with is a sense of personal power.

I know a lot of people struggle with feeling disempowered but what I find for myself is that I do have a lot of power but feel uneasy about using it, that it would be wrong.

I'm trying to seperate this out into more nuance. Of course I believe it is wrong to exercise power over another person, to force or manipulate them into doing what I want, or subjugating them.

But I am finding I am quite able to keep my shit together when people are falling apart around me, and it feels uncomfortable in one way but totally natural in another. I've been giving myself permission to do it lately, and not just to do it but feel strong about it rather than ashamed.

Is this something you relate to at all? Do you feel like you know something but feel it would be too arrogant to calmly stand by your knowledge?

Do you feel like you have a wellspring of strength inside you but that it would be somehow wrong to wield it?

Seperate question, do you like your strong feelings, do they feel natural and right to you, or do they feel overwhelming and foreign? My kid feels very strongly and prefers to express them and enjoys the ups and downs. This feels right to her. For me, I have feelings and they are strong but much steadier, and I prefer to keep them to myself. I don't find it repressive, it just feels right to notice my feelings and add them to my considerations but not let them lead.

I used to express more because of cognitive dissonance and other factors, but I loathed it. How do you feel about it, do you feel like it's "you" to lean into your feelings, or do you hate it and feel like it's not your natural way?

No wrong answers, of course, whatever feels like "you" is the path to explore.