Respect to those that have left their PD partners

[InTheDragonsDen]

Deep respect to those that have left their PD partners.

Married 9 years. Due to covid my covert NPD wife and me have spent everyday together for the last 3 years (I havent worked and for 99.99% of the time she has not been anywhere without me).
Need to leave the country for a day or so. I asked her to come with me, she refused which in itself isnt wrong as it is all travel and back again. However, I am having a lot of anxiety and a bit of the onset of a mini panic attack. It is not being caused by me worrying about what she may do during my absence but has everything to do with me being alone. For over 25 years I have worked half the time away and half the time at home, no problem. Maybe part of it may be because covid caused the change in my pattern or maybe these things just happen when you get a bit older.
Also things are starting to come together regarding finding a place to go (if or when I leave). All my past relationships I have been loyal to my partner and it was not me who ended the relationships.
At times I see her as needing support and help (the victim), at other times she is uncaring except for her needs.
When she wants she can be the perfect woman, like today. At times she can be the worst you can imagine (Last night). It is a continual roller coaster in this house.
She lies, cheats, no empathy, no intimacy, caring only for herself, yada, yada, yada and I look up and there is a beautiful woman with cold cold eyes and I might add heart and I find it difficult at times to understand why I havent run in November. I know an alpha male would have dumped her long ago, no second thoughts.

Yet I know I can and must go (I hope) when things are aligned but I also know, it will be the hardest thing I have ever done and thanks to others who have left and shared their stories so others like myself can understand the other side.

[SonofThunder]

Hi DragonsDen,

You wrote:

"..... but has everything to do with me being alone."

Imo, leaving your partner and this statement are two different subjects, yet this subject may have more to do with how you ended up with a PD partner.  PD's are ultra-needy and high radar, and so people who may have difficulty being with themselves are a perfect host for a PD's needy traits.   

Imo that sentence is the most important subject for the long term; a subject that needs exploration both now and after you leave, should you choose to leave.  That subject, if not fully understood and potentially faced, could make a person vulnerable to landing squarely  in another abusive relationship. 

In addition:

A: what is the most difficult, unknown decision/adventure (non-relationship) you have done in your life thus far?

B: on an opposite vibe, what is the most anticipated unknown adventure you are desiring in your future (non-relationship)?

SoT

[InTheDragonsDen]

A: None
B: None

17 years of age, sitting at home in my quiet place I ready knew that I should never enter into any relationship and I also realized at that age that I could never live alone.
4 long term relationships: covert npd, borderline, PD, covert npd. 4 for 4 100% success. (Thanks to this site I could put a term covert narcissist to a couple of my relationships). Other sibs were also emotionally challenged like myself.

My first partner was extremely high IQ and extremely manipulative. At her work she was adored by all the staff. The company favorite employee. They would litterally coo when ever she walked into the office. At the office Christmas party she stood in the middle of the room and all the other men were surrounding her, listening to her talk (Part of her job was giving presentations to hundreds of people, she had the gift indeed). At home, well, I was allowed to see the flip side.

Aware long ago that my fear of being alone overrides everything. Anyone is better than living alone. Alone, I cease to exist. With someone, anyone, I live my life through them. All four partners extroverts. My great grandparents, grandparents, father, brother, and me all extreme introverts. The nut does not fall far from the tree. At times I have day dreams where I am in a forest living alone with my dogs. Grew up in the country surrounded by forests. Would go walking into them almost every day. Bird song, animal tracks.

At the age of 10 or 11 I was thrust into becoming the family caretaker. From that awareness until I left the household 12-13 years later was filled with anxiety and fears of my safety. Would seldom sleep more than a couple hours each night during school nights, in fear and anxiety. Weekends I crashed for over 12 hours for a couple nights and then repeat.

[InTheDragonsDen]

The first six years with my wife there was no drama. Six years filled with something always going on. Something to look forward to. Then I felt okay, we have everything set up that we need, we had done all the major trips we had planned. Yes we still had a couple more trip ideas but they were not going to be immediate. We settled into a normal day to day period. Then I caught her cheating and this was probably not her first time (learned about triangulation) but then everything changed. We separated and I came back. She was less sweet and the little spikes of anger would start to appear until today there is no sweet only grey rock from her and the eyes. Eyes filled with anger.
Last half year has been the worst and reading from others posts I know it can get a lot more worse.

I have a two day trip by myself coming up. Will see how that effects me.

[SonofThunder]

Thanks for the reply DragonsDen.  Im so sorry you have experienced so much trouble throughout your adult life and also childhood.  I wish you the best on your upcoming solo trip.   

Do you believe a highly-trained companion therapy dog could possibly assist you in being able to live alone vs with disordered human house-partners, to avoid future repetitive traumas?

SoT

[square]

ITDD, do you relate at all to either of these two descriptions?

Symptoms of Derealization

– Distortions in time. Recent events may feel as though they happened in the distant past.

– Distortions of the size, shape, and distance of objects.

– Feeling emotionally disconnected and isolated from other people.

– Surroundings may appear blurry, colorless, artificial, or distorted.

– Heightened clarity and awareness of one's surroundings.

– Feeling detached from reality, as though you're in a dream or movie.

Symptoms of Depersonalization

– Feeling as though you are not in control of your movements or speech.

– Feeling like a robot.

– Physical and emotional numbness to sensations and the world around you.

– The sense that your body or extremities are distorted, shrunken, or larger; or that your head is wrapped in cotton.

– Feeling like your memories may not be your own. Lacking emotion or emotional connection to your memories.

– Feeling as though you're just an observer of yourself rather than having a sense of self. e.g., floating around and watching yourself.

[InTheDragonsDen]

Hi SoT, I have my two dogs, they keep me company. I have no family and just contacted two friends who I gave up years ago. Allowed my wife to push me away from them. They are quite excited to meet me the night before I leave.

Hi Square, nope never. None of those. 
Grew up in a household where I became the caregiver to the adults.
I believe I am self aware enough to realize what is going on with both my partners and myself.
If someone who never had dealt with someone who had a mental illness before there would be a "shock value" when their partner goes off the rails.
For myself, as bad as it gets with my wife, I have lived through much much worse as a pre-teen.
Then the caretaker part of me kicks in which I believe is anchoring me a bit.
Caretaker equals giving up ones self to help someone who is incapable of helping themselves.

My basic plan is to get to work. Nothing happens forward or backwards without me working. Once I am working, I can take the next step. Wouldn't call it walking on eggshells but I have done some low cost things that have "soothed" my wife sufficiently that the only negative is a feeling of loneliness and where I felt I belonged in the house or in the community I now feel that this is no longer my forever place.

Also I am planning more breaks from the house more often when I come back from my mini trip. Not over night breaks but going for a day drive to a nature area. To get out among other people. Think this will help in making baby steps into the big world.

Deep deep deep deep down, I know and understand that how ever scary the real world is without my wife that once I have the job I need go. I understand my emotions from time to time will swing but I also see the overall harm that this last 6 months is doing to me.

THank you both for taking the time to write to me. It really really helps. Cant express how much it does help. Thank you.

[SonofThunder]

Sure thing Dragon,

The steps you mention sound mindful, realistic and calculated.  Caretaking attributes become so unbalanced, that we lose ourselves, allowing ourselves to be who others need us to be.  These very manipulative, self-focused and creative user-predators, manage to slowly build the walls higher until in a mental state of erosion, we find ourselves within the compound of their cult. 

As a minor, I was trapped behind the user-cult walls of my foo, my uNPDf ran the compound and my caretaker mother only had enough breathing room to get her nose out of the water.  The visible outside walls of this inner compound were cloaked in the facade of sprawling land, big home, community reputation, adventurous hobbies with envious expensive toys, travel, successful business, and then religion to wrap it all up nicely with a pretty bow, so no-one would ever see inside the compound walls.  I had no idea I was in a this user-cult, being molded exactly into the host the adults needed me to be. 

But when I became an adult, with adult freedoms and rights, it was really up to me to educate and reshape myself.  I did not.  I did exactly what I was groomed to do, which is to caretake another user for multiple decades.  Do I have an excuse?  Yes, I can blame my past, and no, I have my adult rights and freedoms. I thank God for those two, that I do not live in a culture/country that restricts these within the confines of government and/or entire culture compound walls.   

This is why I love both the 50% rule and the 51% rule.  As an adult who is now educated and fully aware, the 50% rule is my walls fully down;  my adult rights and freedoms, guided by the local and national laws of my country (but more so for me by the good and healthy conduct-code of my creator), allow me to alter who I need to be, and let the consequences of truth, fairness and reality crash upon the shores of the users who have walled me in during my past.

The 51% rule gives me a self-governing operating boundary in which to proactively self-improve without being an asshole.  The rest of the the toolbox is simply just the specific wonderful set of powerful honed skills in which to use as I 50% and 51% myself steady forward.   

I commend you on your mindful, realistic and calculated understanding that its you who must change; you who must push the boundaries of your past limitations; you who must understand the cult maintaining traits that have been used to keep you within the walls of your emotional and physical compound; you who must use his adult rights and freedoms to change yourself, and not allow yourself to fall once again, back within the walled compound of user-predators. 

Yes, part of the compound is keeping us in, but its also running the others out, which you well-stated with  "I have no family and just contacted two friends who I gave up years ago. Allowed my wife to push me away from them." 

A hat tip for you to reach out and reactivate your connection to these friends; and also find meaningful and beneficial employment.  I encourage you to continue on strongly along this route, love who are really are, and allow yourself to be your own best friend.  I personally believe doing that, requires us to tap into the power of our childhood imaginations and daydream, playact, talk to ourselves when necessary, truly play and lose focus on what the outside world thinks about us. 

Im a man of faith, and since this is not the religious board, I wont interject much here other than that my faith is a strong and tested foundation in which to trust and operate.  My creator also teaches about utilizing the trusting and free mindset of a child, because of my trusting faith in my creator, whom I believe to be in full control. 

I am living my daydreams at this time, governed by the 50% rule and 51% rule and my waves of truth and freedom, guided at all times by love, are crashing their hard realism upon the beaches of those who have walled-me in the past.  Their high dunes of predator-need are being steadily eroded and its difficult for them. I will fully allow them to adult themselves.   

I will keep you in thought and prayer as you venture into the understanding of  "..... but has everything to do with me being alone." and break free, so that being alone is a future non-issue.  Imo, once we learn to be ok with, or even enjoy being with ourselves, then being with others will be highly self-guarded from the quiet walls of control being slowly erected once again; we will choose well and be strong, educated and high radar. 

SoT

[square]

ITDD, I'm glad you don't relate to either of those descriptions.

You have a great plan and the insight to carry it out.

[InTheDragonsDen]

Hi SoT and Square,

Thank you so very very very much.

At the moment the wife is cold and indifferent and I know it doesn't or shouldnt change anything it would be helpful to know what exactly is going on with her thinking. I would assume for the most part it is like other covert female narcissists but I can not find any deep information on the subject.

The future faking has long since stopped, there is no emotional connection, the hugs and any attention that went with it are gone. I can only assume that she is waiting for me to leave. I leave she gets to play the victim. But as to how she comes to this as what goes on inside them?

For me, there is no expectation of any positive rewards. There is every expectation that when I do leave that there will be no more contact between us (both ways). She knows, that I know her deep feelings or at least believes I do.

Liked Dr. Ramani's comment that if you leave them, leave them with compassion. No need for anger or negative feelings. It is my belief that if we hold onto anger (which I do not have but some do) in some ways we are still allowing them to control us long after we have gone our separate ways.

I do wonder if they are self aware enough to realize that relationship after relationship, which turns out the same way, that it is not because of their partners but because of themselves. Over heard my wife making a comment about me being just like her other exes. The only thing being in common with all her past relationships is her. Over the years she told me about her ex and what happened. Was surprised that months before we hit the big speed bump in November out of the blue she told me how when her ex had another woman she did everything she could to get her ex to leave this woman and when he did go back that she totally changed, refused any intimacy and berated him until he left again. She said it in a neutral tone. I can only assume that comment was meant to punish me in some way. Maybe she was suggesting that the only reason we came back together after a half year separation was to punish me? Do not think I will know that answer to that until after it is all done and some time has past.

Impossible for us to know what goes on with their thinking exactly but I think their need for attention is similar to a drug or alcohol addiction. I have seen peoples lives destroyed by both drug and alcohol and believe that their addiction to attention causes leaves them in a world that is so bright and beautiful and the next moment the most dark and desolate. The switching between both must be devastating. No real friends. Just their fixers.

Which narcissist magnet are you? Dr. Ramani appeared yesterday on my youtube feed! Brilliant timing.

Thanks again for helping walk beside me. This is the most difficult time of my life.

[square]

I've met some highly self aware PDs, and I have run into one or two who seemed so totally disconnected that I genuinely felt they were very unaware that they were disordered or unusual at all. Most seem to fall in between, being somewhat aware of some things some of the time.

I think something for you to keep in mind is that many PDs flit this way and that way based on how they feel in the moment. Your stbx is acting based on how she is feeling right now, and if tomorrow she is acting differently, I doubt she will have planned it that way, just maybe woke up in a different mood or something or other happened. So in this waiting time, you've got to just accept that you don't know how she'l be. (Some do plan but I suspect yours is more of a flitter).

Our spouses are different, but I definitely know how hard it is to not know what I'm going to get on a given day. My husband will be in whatever mood he is in on a given day, usually lasts all day, but the next day, who knows? I've coped with it by disconnecting from him emotionally and in a practical sense. Now it doesn't matter that much what mood he's in because I'm the same either way and my day is mostly the same. If  it's a bad day, well, I didn't expect any better really. If it's a good day, cool, but it doesn't mean anything.

[InTheDragonsDen]

Thanks Square,

Last couple days I care less about the lack of intimacy and no morning / night routine (hugs, greetings, etc) because I no longer expect it from her.

She does plant a seed (says something) and then either a day or two later something happens that ties in with what she said.

Mine has also told me when she was dysregulated or in a fantasy world about how she would like to hurt me physically and frequently talks about how she wishes our genders were reversed with the goal of her having the added bonus of physical dominance.

I find she does a lot of vindictive planning. Example, she doesnt want to go somewhere we have been before like for Christmas. She knows I love this. Then on Christmas she will put a photo of us at my favorite Christmas place. I needed a zipper fixed, she said she couldn't fix it, then the next day she will spend the whole day replacing her zippers that do not need fixing.

At the moment she is working daily on painting me black to everyone around us. Gently pushing my button and waiting for a response.

Agree they can switch moods extremely fast based on a great supply or a word that triggered them.

[losingmyself]

I agree, they can switch between behaviors with the flip of a switch.
My H paints me black to anyone who will listen. I really don't know if he can understand that his way of thinking is not normal. I think he believes it's everyone around him. He has lately been targeting his family as enemies, too. Funny because they are all basically the same, especially his F.
Last night, walking through the basement where I do laundry, things were in his way, and he'd just aggressively kick things out of his way.
Then ten minutes later, professing his love and talking to the cat (this happens often) about how mean I am to him.
He will blame everyone around him till he's completely alone, and never see the common denominator. But then every once and a while he'll say something like "I know I'm not easy to live with.." I think this is just baiting.

[InTheDragonsDen]

Hi Losingmyself,

Amazing how similar they all are in their characteristics.
They view the world as being scary and hostile to them. Think a bit of low grade paranoia.
They are scared of anyone that knows them well as those people have the ability to "rat them out" for who they are and so they activity try and discredit those people including family members. Anything to hide from the world who they are. Low grade paranoia.
Yes baiting and manipulation are their daily tools.
Any drama is better than boredom.
Mine attacks everyone except potential male sources of supply. She is especially into men who have a partner and of course that man's partner is viewed as bad bad bad.
When something happens in the house. I will not comment. Sooner or later she will point it out to me. For example, we both have desks, she will come sit at mine, make a mess. Later I will clean it up. Time passes and she will come by and say "I see you cleaned up the mess on your desk". I will pretend like I didn't even notice "oh, i didn't even notice". They need to make sure you are aware of their little manipulations.
Talking to the cat is purrrfect. Doubt he talks to the cat when you are not around. Manipulation.
His comment about not being easy to live with is his invite to you to join him in his mind games.
Sadly, we are their enemies as all are who do not offer unconditional or wanted supply of attention.
Daily manipulations and word games are the norm.
I am deep into her devaluation phase where she knows she can not control me and thus a major threat to her image. Not providing any real source of supply for her. She may feel trapped as if she goes hunting for new supply at this time she may be worried about any transgressions causing harm to her community image.
Not a good place to be in. Spend too much time deciphering if what she said or did was or wasnt meant as a manipulation.
When she bites or pinches me or shows her anger in her face it is easy to see but mostly it is hidden just below the surface.
I have done some reading on covert narcissists and how difficult it is at the end. The non may have years of what appears to be normal behavior memories. In my case it was 6 years. No drama. No rage. The last 3 have been work. The last 6 months has been a steep learning lesson in full on devaluation, contempt, anger, rage, etc.
Think the longer you are in these relationships the harder it is to step out. I know what to do, hard to throw the attachments away.
Think for those with the male being the narcissist is harder on those with the female narcissist.

Good luck and stay strong Losingmyself. Hope you have some trusted friends who have your back so that you have a source of help.

[InTheDragonsDen]

Hi Losingmyself,
Dr. Ramani and Dr. Les Carter joined together on his youtube channel "Surviving Narcissism" for 1 video.
Dr. Carter has a video "The quiet cruelty of a passive aggressive narcissist". Enjoyed this video as it gave a glimpse into how they think.

[losingmyself]

2 of my favorite people! I listened to that! Loved it.
Dr Ramani has a podcast called Navigating Narcissism that I enjoy listening to, as well.
Last month she had an interview with a woman who was in a narc relationship, and her views on why it was so hard to get away. I listened to it 2x.
If you haven't heard it, I recommend.
Good luck to you

[InTheDragonsDen]

Hi Losingmyself! Thank you I will listen and tune in.

[hhaw]

I think a lot of us left our PD spouses AFTER they drove us to it with emotional blow torches, fear and abuse, Dragon.

Fleeing in panic isn't a strong way to leave, IME. 

It's how I left and I think I've made about every mistake there is to make.

We're made a lot stronger during the divorce process.  Stronger than we know and you're stronger than you know too.

[InTheDragonsDen]

Hi Hhaw, yesterday was the most "grrrrr" day I had but I kept my eye on the prize and how to best achieve that prize with as little drama as possible. I have waited this long, another month or two I can hold out.

Thank you for caring and sharing.

[escapingman]

I think a lot of us left our PD spouses AFTER they drove us to it with emotional blow torches, fear and abuse, Dragon.

Fleeing in panic isn't a strong way to leave, IME. 

It's how I left and I think I've made about every mistake there is to make.

We're made a lot stronger during the divorce process.  Stronger than we know and you're stronger than you know too.

I tried to make it work for so long until I just couldn't anymore. My codependent needs selfishly wanted to caretake STBX. All I wanted was to live in the bubble and keep all my unhealthy coping strategies, I let STBX be the judge so I didn't have to be accountable myself.

As hhaw says, we that have left had run out of options and the only option to leave would have been death.