he lied

[losingmyself]

He lied. So much. And you know what he always says to me? I bet you can guess it. "You know the thing that pisses me off the most? Lying"  I'll try to abbreviate this story. Yesterday DD thought she should go to the clinic. I told H, and he said he'd go with. DD is 20 y.o.  for one thing, and the biggest thing, she hates him.  She did not want him to go.  Before he said he'd go with, though, he gave me a hard time about leaving early and losing pay. ( I had to give her a ride there) I have plenty of pto, it's not an issue. He on the other hand, does not have any pto. I kept telling him that he didn't have to come. I didn't have the courage to tell him not to come with, I just kept saying You really don't have to....
He said he left work early
He said he was at a store shopping, said he bought some corn to feed the deer, and did I need anything from said store
He said he'd meet us there, maybe he'd stop by my work while he waited for us to leave.
Until DD finally arranged for a friend to take her this morning, and I told him, although I just said she changed her mind, wanted to wait overnight to see if she really needed to go in.
He was home when I got home from work. He even said that he put the corn away in the shed.
He said "So, she decided not to go in?" I gave him the line about her changing her mind... He said "Oh, I figured she didn't want me to come with" I didn't know what to say.
Then he said, with kind of a chuckle, like I was supposed to laugh, "I didn't go to the store. I never even left work" He had no intentions of coming with.
I'm so mad at myself for falling for that manipulation. He wanted to stop me from taking her to the doctor, so he deliberately set out to stop me and he never had to say no at all. It caused so much pain. It is another thing I will never forget. Mostly it hurt DD, as here I was, not being able to do something for her, again, because I am not strong enough to kick him out of my life, or even say no to him, and I never have been. She was so so angry and hurt with me. I gave her some space, then later asked her if she wanted to yell at me.
On the way home, she said "Do you still want me to yell at you?" I said yes.
So, she told me how she felt, and what she still deals with because she and her brother were basically abandoned, or yelled at for never doing anything right. Nothing I didn't know, but she needed to say it. What I didn't know was how bad the living conditions were at their F's place. But it was still better than living with me and H. And she told me about the resentment that she and DS can't help but have, now that I'm really thinking about leaving, but I didn't do it for them.
But she told me that at least now when I leave, we can have a somewhat normal relationship. She still said she loves me, and I'm her best friend.
Man, I rambled. Sorry.
I didn't tell her that he lied. I don't think I need to pile that on her.
Or should I? Is it dishonest not to?
Last night and this morning, I was quiet. I'm not going to bother arguing with H. I just don't care anymore. But I am angry. This morning he said something about me being grumpy and it's "Starting to really piss him off"  Just shows how he can't handle change, and my lack of reaction, just GR. I'm just biding my time, but it's getting really rough.
My heart hurts. for just everything.

[notrightinthehead]

Just wanted to send you a big hug. Stick to your plan. Be compassionate with yourself. He is who he is. You are changing. Work on getting stronger and give your love to the people who matter, like your daughter.

[losingmyself]

Thank you Notright, I so so so need a big hug.

[moglow]

Losingmyself, maybe you're angry because he lied again and you didn't feel you could address it without bringing down the house. No you don't have to tell your DD what actually happened, but maybe it's time you had a hard talk with yourself about what's going on here.

He was home when I got home from work. He even said that he put the corn away in the shed.
He said "So, she decided not to go in?" I gave him the line about her changing her mind... He said "Oh, I figured she didn't want me to come with" I didn't know what to say.
Then he said, with kind of a chuckle, like I was supposed to laugh, "I didn't go to the store. I never even left work" He had no intentions of coming with.

Me, when I could find air and words:  Why would you do that to me, put me in that position - much less outright lie about it?? What possible purpose does that serve, for anyone? And you wonder why I have nothing to say and don't trust you. [then walk away]

I understand you're biding your time and doing what you have to for now, but damned if I wouldn't let him have it at some point, how things like this destroyed your relationship. It wasn't one instance, one mad word, one angry look or reading anything into it. He LIED to you again and seemed to take joy in it. I hope you can find a way to pull back even more, not tell him what you're doing or where you're going.

[square]

This sounds very hard. My thoughts are with you.

[InTheDragonsDen]

NPD's hurt others............ so they can feel better.

I try to look at why a person says or does something. To find the motivation.

Know the why, know the person.

Good luck in your journey, you are self-aware, you are strong. Best wishes

[losingmyself]

I agree, Moglow, it would be nice to just let him have it. Tell him how I feel and how he's hurt me and the kids. But it would be yelling at a brick wall. And it's exactly what he wants. I know the reason he did what he did..to hurt us, to mess up our plans. And he won.
But I'll be damned if I'm also going to give him the argument that I can just see he's hoping for. He was just licking his chops, waiting for me to react. To take the bait.
Nope. I'm not giving him my anger. Not right now.
But you're right, I will tell him about things after I've done them, not before. Maybe.
Thank you for your encouraging words.
I also don't think I am brave enough to say the things you suggested.  They're all true, though. 

[moglow]

I think one day you will find all the courage you need, that it won't matter anymore what he says or does. All that will matter is the sure knowledge that he repeatedly put you in a position to choose, that he lied and manipulated you into lose-lose situations with your children. He'd deny it and try to turn it around on you, but you know. Yes, you made those choices to keep peace and because you didn't feel you could do differently. But you will. You may not be there today - one tomorrow soon, it may be very different.

Know what's worse/better than that anger? Indifference. Distance. That inner feeling of "whatever." I pray you find those, so you can let him and all his stuff go.

[Poison Ivy]

One thing I suggest is that, if possible, don't tell your H about things that he doesn't need to know and that he will use to provoke you and other people. Example: Your H doesn't need to know about DD going to a clinic.

[Srcyu]

I agree so much with Poison Ivy - limit the things you tell him, especially if it involves the family.
He is a bully and doesn't deserve to know about anyone else's business.

If you can do that, it will take you one more step away from him.

On the Out of the FOG Facebook page there is an excellent post/photo about leaving someone "in bits and pieces over time."  It's good, it might help if you feel like taking a look.



milly

[SonofThunder]

Hi LosingMyself,

Im sorry that occurred and that he manipulated both you and your DD. You wrote something that popped out of the paragraph at me when I read it, and everything else in the post took a backseat. 

You wrote:

"But she told me that at least now when I leave, we can have a somewhat normal relationship. She still said she loves me, and I'm her best friend."

That kind of support and anticipation from your DD is so very important and telling.  Im here to say from the middle of my own divorce, that improved relationships with divorce-supportive adult children is such a silver lining!  Its also hugely empowering for the adult child who has also suffered at the hands of the same abuser. My experience is they feel less alone in the feelings they have harbored so very long and have a much closer-aligned, supportive teammate in their experiences; a teammate who is willing to fully protect themselves in that strong manner, and say no to the truth of abuse.  What a joy to read of your DD's encouragement, support and the anticipation of an improving relationship with you. You are not alone!

To your question: his lies that affected you are real. The lies are the truth of your experience. Your truth experiences are not gossip but are free for you to share to anyone you desire. Your real experiences happen to include a liar. The experiences are not about a liar but about manipulation that you endured and the liar caused them.

On an opposite side, because of my nature, I can personally feel like a tattletale for sharing my own experienced truth when it includes wrongdoing by another. But, I also do not desire to safe-harbor a PD's lies.  Therefore imo, the best strategy for me, is to tell the results of my experiences only, and allow the hearer to try and connect the dots to the cause.  If I carefully, craft-fully and truthfully share, my experiences purposefully leave the story unfinished, and I simply instruct the listener that the connecting info is the other person's (liar) to share, not mine, so ask them.  That causes the liar to put themselves in a double bind and expose their lies, should they be asked.  In this case, it may further glue you and DD even tighter in your shared experiences.

SoT

[11JB68]

Wow.  He put so much effort into that convoluted manipulation.... and seems he used your dd in the process...
So sorry you are dealing with this

[losingmyself]

11jb, I know, right??? And that sort of stuff just comes naturally to him!
Thank you all so much for your beautiful and thoughtful advice. I cried a lot yesterday. Had to go to the bathroom to calm myself so I could work. Thank goodness I was alone yesterday. DD is feeling better with the rest and antibiotics. Wish I could have helped her. As suggested, if she needs to go again, we will just go. No announcement.
I feel so loved, and I know I'll make it through this.
Moglow, I am really doing well working towards indifference, I can do it most of the time, but stuff like this.....Just pure white-hot rage. I can feel it in my face.
Thank you SOT, you're right about the love and support I get from my kids, and we can look forward, not back. "The lies are the truth of your experience." Goodness.  I will remember that forever.
Moving on....
moving on....
Much great love and appreciation to you all.

[Poison Ivy]

losingmyself, my ex-spouse is less abrasive than your husband, and his behaviors tend to be avoidant and dependent, not NPD. But it was crushing to realize that I should limit my conversations and communication with him because anything I said or wrote might open the door to him saying or writing or doing things that were hurtful or weird or generally not helpful.

[square]

My husband is also not like that, but here is the bit that may be relevant. I kept being let down when he'd say he would do X but not get around to it. When someone says they will do something, I take them at their word, so I would feel relieved when he expressed a plan and then be even more hurt or frustrated when it would not happen.

I started consciously adding "maybe" to every stated intention, in my head. It wasn't good enough, I'm an optimist and "maybe" sounds pretty good to me.

So I switched to
Would be nice if it happened but I doubt it
I'll believe it when I see it
Well, nice of him to at least notice it needs to be done, anyway
Yeah I don't think so

After a while, I trained myself out of trusting his word.

Maybe it will help you, in addition to putting him on a strict info diet, to come up with a mantra for any stated intention he has. Your husband is different, he is malignant, but perhaps mantras like

I wonder what he's up to
Whatever he says, it's not going to happen like I think/hope
He must think this is important to me, so I need to play it cool
He's lying, even if I don't know what part is the lie yet

[InTheDragonsDen]

My thoughts on my situation, think talking to them before or after changes nothing and is just more pain for myself. Talking to her isnt going to make me feel better, going to give them more "drama" which they crave, adds to their victim hood, they are unable to see our point of view and if they say they see where we are coming from it is just more manipulation.

I am trying to live by the "WHY"? When someone does or says something rather than reacting to the hurt, I try and look at the why, what is their motivation? Guess when it comes to "talking" to the ex after the split what is the motivation? What is a person looking for?

Think talking to them after the split is more hurtful to ourselves. Just my thoughts.

[Poison Ivy]

I'm not sure whether your post was directed to me, but I'll answer anyway. I still occasionally communicate with my ex because we have children (adults) and sometimes my obligations to our children outweigh my obligation or desire or whatever to not engage with my ex.

Example: A few weeks ago, my daughter's boyfriend's mom died suddenly after an accident. My daughter and I talked very soon. I asked her the next day whether she had told her father, and she said she had been trying to reach him but the calls were going to voicemail and he wasn't responding to texts. I offered to try to contact him; I called his landline phone and left a message: "Daughter is trying to reach you. Please contact her or respond when she contacts you." It turns out his phone needed to be charged. They talked. 

My children are aware that their father has issues. I don't think my children should have to suffer additionally during traumatic situations such as this one merely because their father has issues and I'm no longer married to him.