Awake after 20 years of marriage

[Gman22]

Hello,

I am awake now.  I am in a marriage of 20 years with uPDw and 3 beautiful kids who are in middle, jr high and HS.   Wife has all the hallmark traits of BPD and more than a hint of NPD.

  7 months ago my wife told me that I wasn't giving her enough good feels and physical affection - she also let me know it was my fault she was going to have an affair.  And she did - despite me begging her to stop.  I've been reminded that her affair is my fault and also im okay with it.  Soo.... LoL

My enlightenment began when wife accused me of being a narcissist.  I was in despair and as I researched what a narcissist is...I really flipped out.  Bad stuff.  I was horrified that I could be such a person.  I read books and watched countless Ramani and other vids.  I saw a therapist as well for awhile. 

It didn't take too long to realize that it wasn't me.  Since, I have learned my wife's motivations and have become very able to predict her behaviors.   I get very frustrated with myself when I JADE or try to speak logic to someone who can't hear it. 

The last couple of weeks we have come very close to divorcing.  I feel like I've totally broken the trauma bond.   Wife used to always threaten divorce but that doesn't scare me any more.  I've worked out all the details of how that will go.  Our fights when i JADE are nasty though.  She will block me from walking away. Accuse me of abusing her and other rants which are unacceptable.  She has recently cut herself and also threatened suicide when I left the house for the night. 

I've connected with my oldest - my daughter and I realize she has been traumatized as well.   Daughter straight up asked me unprompted about 5 months ago if mom was bipolar.

I need advice on how to survive in this marriage for the time being - I will not let her have the kids for 50% of the time.  Wife's behavior for 15 years plus has been toxic and  self centered around controlling things - but within the last 8 months she has become downright erratic.

I am working on a plan to divorce and seek full custody of the kids.  I have a great attorney but I don't think we are there yet where I will get the kids.  It is so clear to me right now that I am the predictable and stable presence my kids need.  It requires me to be false to myself and to my wife - I don't know any way around that.

This feels rambling now.  More to come.  Hello and thank you all for sharing, I've been reading for months. 

Need advice On how to pull this off for a couple of years. 

- gman

[SonofThunder]

Hi Gnan22,

First, a very warm welcome to Out of the FOG.  We all walk these trails together and we always leave a few empty chairs around the campfires of the forum boards.  Glad you are here with us and look forward to further conversation with you, so kick off your hiking boots and rest those weary toes close to the warming embers. 

Second, I'm sorry to read of your experiences.  I am currently separated on my way to divorce, from my 30 year marriage to my uPDwife. I have two adult, married children.  Im certain our stories are similar so feel free to click on my screen name and view my past posts, if doing so can be of any assistance to you. 

There are some men here on the forum and imo, I believe that gender of the PD plays a role in some of the experiences we face.  Ive written about it in the past, and my reading here on Out of the FOG helps to confirm my opinions. 

Again, a warm welcome.  I highly recommend you continue to hone your toolbox skills, no matter what stage of marriage or divorce you are located.  The tools take steady practice and reflection, plus thick skin, slow to speak lips and a backbone of steel. 

See you around the boards,

SoT

[bloomie]

Gman22 - adding another warm welcome! Thank you for sharing what brings you to this lovely community of fellow travelers. The level of betrayal and the audaciousness of it you are experiencing, and lack of human decency toward you by your wife, blows my mind. It must be very difficult living in such a toxic atmosphere.

As you work on your plan and are in the heat of it all, make good use of the resources that you will find both at the drop down menus above, in the book recommends, other online resources, and conversations taking place on the boards.

I don't know how you stay the course without a support system in place, and I have found that means I need support like this community, but also in real life support. A trusted friend, mentor, spiritual advisor, therapist... someone, or a few someones, who have some idea of what you are going through who have the chops to walk this path with you, is something to consider developing if you haven't already.

Keep coming back. Keep sharing, reading, soaking in the good will and kindness you will find here. Often we arrive here exhausted and isolated. You are not alone! Again, welcome!

[Gman22]

Thanks so much, folks.  And for the links.   Right now I am working on how to maintain boundaries, understand what boundaries need to come first. 

I'm trying to go slowly and make small movements in order to maintain stability for the kids and avoid major meltdowns on her side.  She has never been as unregulated and insecure as she is now and I've been learning voraciously but I'm still inexperienced in this 4D chess game. 

For now boundaries are that she doesn't physically touch me during arguments, no more cries of abuse or threats of self harm.  Also funny enough - the one I may be most passionate about is she needs to let me sleep.   Her antics can keep me up for days sometimes including right now.

I'll reread the toolbox and search posts along these lines.  Thanks for the encouragement and advice!  Feels mind blowing  to read replies of very similar experiences.

[SonofThunder]

For now boundaries are that she doesn't physically touch me during arguments, no more cries of abuse or threats of self harm.  Also funny enough - the one I may be most passionate about is she needs to let me sleep.   Her antics can keep me up for days sometimes including right now.

Gman, I want to encourage you that proper and effective boundaries are about our own actions/reactions.  We cannot control another adult human being and PD's are masters at teaching us that lesson.  Attempting to set rules or making requests of another adult is not boundaries. 

So, using your words:

What will Gman's self-protective boundary actions/reactions be when:

a: she tries to touch Gman in a future argument?  (don't touch back/depart quick with mouth closed)
b: she cries abuse?
c: she threatens self harm. (See users comments and links)
d: she attempts sleep deprivation on Gman?

Btw, heres the trait link for d:

https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/sleep-deprivation

SoT

[SonofThunder]

We have to remember they're about US, not manipulating or changing the other person.

A good example of a boundary would be to tell yourself, "if my wife physically touches me during an argument, I will leave the room. If that doesn't work, I will leave the house."
Or for sleep, "if she keeps me from sleeping, I will sleep in another room. If that still doesn't work, I'll go to a hotel."
You do not need to share these with her. Just do them. Yes she will wail and protest, but oh well. You are an adult and free to make your own decisions.

SoT

[Gman22]

Thanks - agree, this absolutely resonated.  Sadly her 'touch' is to physically block me from leaving the space.  Which we discussed before as a no no but she did it again.  I literally looked off small porch from our upstairs MBR to consider dropping and running lol!

I did a reasonably good job of grey rocking instead - giving in to whatever ridiculous point or 'need' she had and then leaving the house.  My revised boundaries:

No touching me or physically blocking me.  Otherwise I will grey rock and then leave. 

Cries of abuse?  The last time I called the police and encouraged them to come check on her.  They asked if she had done this before and I said yes.  They declined to check on her and made a record.   I will do the same again if needed.   She was shocked when I'd told her what I had done. 

Threats of self harm again will be met with an immediate call to police for a wellness checkup.  She has threatened suicide and also cut herself.  Both I'm very convinced are just tools of her trade.

Sleep deprivation will come with a warning and then no further warning before I leave to sleep at a friends house or my moms house.

The downside to some of these is that I leave the kids alone with her.   I am not reconciled to that yet but don't see any other effective plans.   Maybe extreme grey rocking but the sleep thing 

[SonofThunder]

Gman,

I am of the opinion that I have a ethical obligation to protect those who cannot protect themselves, and especially those whom I have legal responsibility to protect.  That may include minors, elderly, handicapped and animals.

Therefore, it is my opinion that if you believe your children and/or pets are at risk, in those times when purposeful sleep deprivation of you is occurring (or other abusive incidents you describe), you should gather those who cannot protect themselves (yes, even in the face of difficult BPD rage) and remove them from the unsafe conditions, and well-document (video, audio, writing combo of each/all) the details of what is occurring, in order to protect yourself and the concerned actions you are taking, legally. 

PD's must camp in victim mode and will manipulate and lie to do so.  Therefore well-documented proof may be necessary to protect yourself from that manipulation and lying, in a court of law. You may also gather your kids/pets during those unsafe times, and drive to a police or fire/rescue station which will be a public-facilities time-stamped record of your protective action. 

I understand this may sound extreme.  I have an acquaintance whose BPD wife accused him of rape and he spent most of his savings defending the false charge. I was told by him that she harmed their pets as well.  She also similarly made two failed suicide attempts. My acquaintance had a protective order issued against her because of her threats of harm to him, and she was also ordered to have a psych evaluation and was diagnosed BPD.  😏 She is now unmarried, living and working in society in sales, in full self-control. It was total mayhem, manipulation, lies and rage in the year(s) prior to divorce, proving that she has the ability to fully self-control.

PD's will go to extreme measures to dominate those they prey upon.  I encourage you to protect yourself and your children/pets to the full extent of the law and ethics.

SoT

[Gman22]

SoT,
Wise words.  I am willing to do the difficult things to protect my kids and I think it's right to point to a clear moral imperative like that - ty.

I've only had to leave the house and stay gone overnight once.  Funny enough - for all her unhinged and manipulative rants, she has made it clear that she would never hurt the kids, but I will keep that as my first consideration, leaning in on being to the safe side.  Fire Dept is a great and tangible piece of advice!  There is one right across the street and the record would be good to have if it came to that.

I have removed firearms from the house including hers.  She doesn't know that yet but it will be an interesting conversation when it comes. 

I have installed a camera inside the house to go with the cameras outside that were already there.  I let her know that the camera was there for if we need to work through difficult things.  And that we would have tough conversations in the family room under the camera.   I have audio recorded her many times and I have her on audio threatening to lie to police about supposed spousal abuse. 

I also keep a journal now.  Since I started to discover that I was not the narc.  It is many many pages long and helped me with my self awareness and really helped me to understand manipulations / double talk and see through the Fog!   I have very strongly encouraged my 15yo to start a journal.  I think she wants to but is afraid her mother will break into it, her words.  So I'm helping with a plan there.

Your advice does sound extreme - mind blowing stuff for what I used to think was just a contentious relationship.   I think external stressors and some major family trauma we went through could have triggered these big swings with her.   

more lately (8mos) I think we've gotten into a feedback loop of her PD.  She does things which by all means should make me leave her which makes her insecure which makes her do things she thinks will secure her but in fact it's just more to drive me away.   So now I'm trying to back out of that loop and allow her to settle into the old tolerate / devalue cycle if possible. 

This has become a bizarre act and I understand that being very very thoughtful about my actions and communications is paramount.  Like I'm working in a room full of dynamite and the explosion would tear the family in half and leave my kids exposed. 

In reality, I crave a divorce.   I find myself low-key nursing my injustices and telling myself to never forget.  It's only the last week or so that we've 'agreed' to a 'fresh start'.  I knew I had to but it felt like mental abuse, the process of apologizing to her and repledging my undying affection. 

It did hit me like a ton of confirming bricks this week as I told myself never forget...I've said exactly that before.  In similar but much less severe interactions with her.  For many years...

[SonofThunder]

Gman,

Glad you have some things in place and that a fire dept is near. 

You wrote:

"Funny enough - for all her unhinged and manipulative rants, she has made it clear that she would never hurt the kids, but I will keep that as my first consideration, leaning in on being to the safe side."

And from your original post:

"She will block me from walking away. Accuse me of abusing her and other rants which are unacceptable.  She has recently cut herself and also threatened suicide when I left the house for the night.  "

I advise you to think deeply through how your kids would define what falls under the category of  "hurt the kids".  Witnessing their mothers rants, and physically blocking their father is scary and emotionally hurtful.  Emotional abuse can manifest itself in physical ways.  I am one who was raised in that kind of home and I have physical conditions I now live with because of prolonged exposure (side note: read the book The Body Keeps The Score, to learn more). 

A mother cutting herself and threatening suicide in a home alone with children, while their father departed... please take your children and pets regardless of what words come out of her mouth.  Shes already proven she's willing to subject the children to these abuses, so you need no more evidence.  Your departing without them is also experienced by the kids. 

Dealing with PD's takes very thick skin, a backbone made of steel, determination to do what is right, a toolbox-focused mind, and staunch willingness to press forward through these very intense, scary situations with a stepped plan in place, just like the fire professionals across the street do every day. Your kids need you; they are counting on you dad, because they don't have the power or adult rights to do it themselves.

SoT

[Gman22]

Thanks SoT.  I agree.  Keep me in your thoughts.   Things have been calmer this week so hoping this doesn't happen again but I'll firm up better escape plan.  Will go read on that now.  Still pulling up to get better vantage of things it would appear.

[Gman22]

Thx BW. I guess maybe I am being falsely hopeful.   But to be clear - my hope is just to keep the tirades and antics as low key as possible for 4.5 more years. So here's my sanity check - pinging you and SoT or others who have been all the way down this trail. 

  For 20 years, she's only been degrading, controlling and toxic - 80% directed to me.   For the last 8mos she's been having what I honestly think is her first affair. 

During the last 8 mos  my eyes have opened.  I've drawn many more hard lines and crashed her sense of control / triggered her fears of abandonment and failed to validate her.  This is when the big tantrums started. 

Her threat of suicide was on the phone with me.  Her cutting was texted to me.  Her scream of how I am abusive was out loud and my 15yo heard it.  We don't fight in front of the kids but of course it is very harmful and toxic for them as there is no way to hide the bad fights.

  She has threatened during a phone call to lie and get me arrested  one other time about 4 mos ago. 

so again - my current plan is this.  Better for me to be in the home with my kids than not.  Profess to her my love and take the little abuses in order to keep the worst tantrums at bay.  Survive like this for 4.5 years until the youngest dan choose to live with me only.   

revised my escape plan and boundaries in the last couple of days.  I'm firmly resolved that any dangerous behavior from her again will have me taking the kids out of the house and /or calling authorities to make a record and to ensure family is safe.

I have a terrific divorce attorney on retainer.  One text and divorce is filed...he's in my contacts. 

So to sum up, my plan is to med chill to get the kids clear.  Keep my boundaries and plan clear and a backbone of steel as SoT points out.

If things can't settle, I' may have ti divorce on the hope that apart - the kids will be better.  I'm not thinking that's best for them at this point.   

I'm laying all of this out in order to try and get a ping back on checking my 'hope'.  My hope isn't that we reconcile.  It isn't that she will become kind or balanced. 

My hope is that I can keep her at bay and make it 4.5 years without any other sessions of her screaming lies so the kids can hear or threatening suicide.  Anything less and I'm likely to lose one or more of them to her for primary custody or at least 50% of the time.

Have others here been able to pull this off?  Protecting and staying with the kids long enough to get them clear?

[SonofThunder]

Gman,

You wrote:

"Anything less and I'm likely to lose one or more of them to her for primary custody or at least 50% of the time."

Have you described all this past behavior, current concerns of an affair and steady piling evidence you have, with the attorney?  If yes, he's advised you on those custody outcomes in which you fear?   If no, would it be to your benefit to unload all this on the attorney, who has surely been down this road plenty before and add his advice to your decision making?

Attorneys can be very helpful in this regard, even before you decide to divorce.  Turning unknowns to knowns is powerful. 

SoT

[Gman22]

Terrific advice SoT.  My life is not simple and my situation isn't.   

Please suffice it to say that my battle will be uphill in a custody hearing. My attorney is vetted and very good...the best.

Without significant compelling and well documented evidence for a court - I am extremely unlikely to get primary custody.  Atty doesn't know of a couple pieces of evidence that I have. 

I do need to return to atty and refine 'how much ammo is enough.'  Based on our hour spent together a week and a half ago, I'm likely not there yet. 

He's on retainer and I'll continue to refine and ping meaningful updates every so often as life moves forward.

[SonofThunder]

Terrific advice SoT.  My life is not simple and my situation isn't.   

Please suffice it to say that my battle will be uphill in a custody hearing. My attorney is vetted and very good...the best.

Without significant compelling and well documented evidence for a court - I am extremely unlikely to get primary custody.  Atty doesn't know of a couple pieces of evidence that I have. 

I do need to return to atty and refine 'how much ammo is enough.'  Based on our hour spent together a week and a half ago, I'm likely not there yet. 

He's on retainer and I'll continue to refine and ping meaningful updates every so often as life moves forward.

I wish you and your kids the very best going forward!

SoT

[Gman22]

Okay team - about to work on finances.  It's been an ongoing 'fight' for many years.  All our money gets mushed together in one shared account.   Also, I make over 3x more than she does but I don't care about that as I've always thought things should be 'ours'.   I don't feel that way any more.  I don't care one lick to have money for me or any special purchases for me.  I DO care greatly about:

1. Paying bills
2. Not worrying about feeding my kids or giving them the lifestyle we should be able to enjoy

The worry for money.  It's intense.  For context, my wife pressured us into joining a very expensive sports team with lots of travel.  I said many times that we can't afford that but the vitriol and manipulation  from her on that was intense and quick. 

I've since connected with my daughter on a new level as she and I are both awake now.   Being careful not to worry daughter about money overly much, she and I did work out a plan for a good but cheaper team next year.  She's a team player in sports and at home! <3

So last travel event I wanted to take daughter across the country and that's very much what my daughter wanted too.  Didn't happen.  Mom has done all the sports travel w the teen girl and I've done none of it.

Wife overspent by thousands last week traveling.   Now I literally don't know for sure how to put gas in cars and food on the table.

During the dark period of the last 7-8 months she discovered (I did tell her) that I had opened a second account in my name and stashed money from my last bonus there.  I told her it was for sports travel and in fact that's how it was used.  If I hadn't have done that, there would have been no money for the travel.  We live check to check :'-(

I make quite a decent salary.  We should be able to 'have it all'.   I won't live broke like this for 4/5 more years.  Something bad will happen like lose the house or something.

I've tried many times to reason with her.  I maintain a spreadsheet and try to manage a budget.  It's a tight budget because we have 3 kids, they all do sports and other activities,  nice house, etc.   but I wrote a budget that could work if we all played along.  About every 2 months she blows it. 

My thought was this - set up personal accounts for both her and me.  Divert a small portion of my check to each account and that becomes our personal allowance. 

Here's the rub.  She will blow that up too.   Then what?  I expect at that point I will want to put my entire check into my account.   The bad news is that I don't think she will hesitate to put all of her check into her account and blow it. 

I'm trying to hold this poop show together.  For the kids.  The connection and support I provide them is absolutely worth any hell she can put me through.  But not sure it even holds up if we can't eat, pay rent, etc.

Advice on how to stop the financial bloodbath?

[SonofThunder]

Hi Gman,

A: Does your wife have an income of her own? 

B: Will 50% of your own net salary cover all necessary bills to 'live'. (Not sports and other extras).

Boundaries:  proper self-protective boundaries are self-control over ourselves and our own actions and reaction. Each of may have legal and moral responsibilities to provide and/or protect other humans and animals that cannot protect themselves (minors, elderly, pets, mentally or physically disabled ). 

Each of us legally have rights and those rights will come into fine focus should a divorce occur. Those rights will be dictated by contracts, the law of a country (Federal law) and/or smaller law jurisdiction (for example in the USA: state and county laws). 

USA: Your paycheck is your paycheck (Federally and State) as income & taxes and your wife is hers.  You have tax options to file individually or jointly.  Marital property is also spelled out by law by the particular jurisdiction(s) once a divorce (or death) financial procedure occurs.

Therefore imo, it is wise to think down the road and plan to live now, according to how your jurisdiction will determine marital assets and rights in a divorce (equitable distribution, alimony, child support).  Circling back to boundaries: your paycheck is rightfully yours (in marriage) to delegate its budgetary categories. But in divorce, the law will delegate a certain portion of your paycheck, outside of your control.  Again, my advise is to be smart and begin to quietly/privately understand divorce law/marital property in your location and start living accordingly with your rightful portion, without JADEing why you are doing so.

The remaining financial income portion (amount you figure will not be under your control in divorce), which may be awarded to your wife through alimony and/or child support in a future divorce, can be deposited regularly now into her own separate bank account (again hold your cards close, not disclosing any battle plans). 

Together, you can decide who pays what cost of living bills, with the money going into the individually owned accounts, and then (the hard part) let each of you be FULLY responsible for doing so. Instead of this being a negative idea, possibly present as a fair, amicable idea to not argue over money, promoting her fellow enjoyment of some financial independence, balanced with responsibilities, which is fair, as you are doing the same.   

This doesn't sound like a normal marriage, but I didn't have a normal marriage either.  If you can learn to 'live' on your personal portion alone, you will be financially and emotionally always planning for living divorced.  Your wife may actually appreciate her own account and a certain percentage (50%?) of your paycheck going into her account to manage (my state is a fair equitable-distribution state in divorce).  But... if she runs out of money in her account and cant pay the bills, they don't get paid by you; you don't provide or loan her money because she poorly managed.  Bills unpaid (she accepted responsibility) are her responsibility. Yes, YOU and the kids may suffer if she fails to pay a bill(s), but the blame-ball will lie squarely on her side of the net (tennis analogy) and all will know that fact. For example, If the internet or cell phone service is shut off, let it be, enjoy the tech silence and keep a journal.  If sports cant continue because she mismanaged monies, so be the hardship.  If she cant fuel her car... too bad. 

Now, make sure the critical payments of mortgage, your car, utilities (power, natural gas, heating oil etc..) are in your responsible category so safe living may occur, but non-critical, her car, sports, clothes etc are in hers.

*You also must steel your backbone, thicken your skin and close your mouth while you go into full toolbox mode with your planning-mind, and your determination to follow the plan, unwavering and fully in gear.  She needs to adult herself, both in marriage and/or in divorce.

At the same time, I recommend you privately read the wonderful, powerful and practical book by Fjelstad 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist'.  It may change your life and help you do my * paragraph above. 

SoT

[Gman22]

I'm going to re-read this a number of times.  I was hoping for your $0.02 SoT.  I may be back as I start to detail the plan and then lay in changes.  I've already researched and built a spreadsheet of likely divorce situation.   I've shown her that as well.   

The threat of divorce used to be her big red button. Now I've built the model and shown her and let her know it is 'do-able'. That's when she looked for some other red button. 

Thx again, brother.  Keep me in your thoughts. 

Edit: yes she earns about 30% of the household income and my state caps my responsibility which I would benefit from.   

[SonofThunder]

I'm going to re-read this a number of times.  I was hoping for your $0.02 SoT.  I may be back as I start to detail the plan and then lay in changes.  I've already researched and built a spreadsheet of likely divorce situation.   I've shown her that as well.   

The threat of divorce used to be her big red button. Now I've built the model and shown her and let her know it is 'do-able'. That's when she looked for some other red button. 

Thx again, brother.  Keep me in your thoughts. 

Edit: yes she earns about 30% of the household income.

You're welcome. 

I recommend you consider drawing out some cash at an ATM, enough to pay for an hour or two of a divorce attorneys time. Therefore your wife can't see that you paid for the divorce attorney by credit card. 

Take all the facts about your two incomes, your family makeup and your assets, and use the attorneys experience in your jurisdiction, to hone your plan in a very detailed fashion, planning/implementing to live now (financially), like you will in divorce, making the financial portion of divorce easier in the adjustment. 

SoT

[Gman22]

Yessir - a while ago I mentioned having an attorney on retainer.  He and I have consulted and he has helped me fashion the model I made.  My state is very prescriptive in awarding divorce rulings and he sees no compelling reason that a judge would deviate from the prescription.

I may have to get creative break into subcategories for kids sports.  As in, I'll take the first portion and she can take the rest.  Phones similar - I can't be without mine (work) so need to untangle that a bit.  This will take some time and thought and work but I'm up to the task and having your advice is a cheat-code for this challenge.  I do check and think on my own but so glad for your experience and insight.