Awake after 20 years of marriage

[SonofThunder]

Yessir - a while ago I mentioned having an attorney on retainer.  He and I have consulted and he has helped me fashion the model I made.  My state is very prescriptive in awarding divorce rulings and he sees no compelling reason that a judge would deviate from the prescription.

I may have to get creative break into subcategories for kids sports.  As in, I'll take the first portion and she can take the rest.  Phones similar - I can't be without mine (work) so need to untangle that a bit.  This will take some time and thought and work but I'm up to the task and having your advice is a cheat-code for this challenge.  I do check and think on my own but so glad for your experience and insight.

Ahh yes!  Thanks for the already retained attorney reminder.  Very nice!  That should help you well in crafting your plan. I look forward to future reading how a plan implementation works out. 

Designing a plan is one thing; getting a PD on board is another thing entirely. In my experiences, PD's seem to cherish money and their own freedom, while desiring to control ours. The issue is they also want us to be a rescuer to back them up, when they fail.  Hopefully a properly planned monetary % management allocation on certain types of liabilities and/or assets will be looked at by your spouse as an opportunity and not control.

A plan such as this imo, is not deception, but rather good practice for ourselves to live carefully and a PD spouse to practice some money-managing skills by trial and error. Not by being rescued in the trials by the non, but learning through hardship in the failure that they create and/or building up confidence in themselves when managed properly. 

That failure time, will take a Gman steel backbone and thick skin.  Best wishes for your success.

SoT

[Gman22]

So yesterday she supposedly broke up with her boyfriend.  I think she is feeling very vulnerable now.  Kids are terrified of her and she's blown up the night 10 different ways.  Can't seem to grey rock enough.  Why do I for a moment think that her rants and texts are from a  rational mind?  How can she jump from full blast to normal in the same night.   Im not sure I'm wired to handle this for years still....

Sorry for the rant.  Not sure what the rules are for that but helps to think that there's someone in this world who has been right here and gets it. 

Her trump card this week and most likely tonight is sleep deprivation.  I suck without sleep.  Will likely have to practice a boundary tonight of leaving to sleep somewhere else which is very triggering to her.

[Gman22]

Practical tips on sleep boundaries welcomed.  She is depriving me of sleep to split me and to seek more demonstrations of love from me.  I already am stretched thin with work and doing almost all the kid things.   I told her at 1150p that I would be going to sleep or leaving to find somewhere to sleep at midnight.  She kept on and at 1205 I left the house. 

Of course she now has to control where I sleep.  I honestly don't care what her threats are because the worst she can say is to divorce me.  If it's sleep or divorce I guess sleep is more necessary. 

I am in a parking lot on way to my mothers house but she has let me know that if I don't come home she will call in to work tomorrow.  Well...she would tell anyone that her work ethic is amazing.  But it isn't and she is out of any time off.  So it's going to cost the family $300 that we don't have if I don't return home. 

This sucks.  I guess I'll sleep in a parking lot and hope she doesn't call in.  Doesn't seem to be any good options but just like dealing with a stubborn 2yo, it really feels like I shouldn't give in and return home to continue convincing her of my love.  Which I don't love her...but I need her to think I do for the sake of the kids.  What's the right move?

This 4D chess game is hard on my tired mind. 

[SonofThunder]

" I told her at 1150p that I would be going to sleep or leaving to find somewhere to sleep at midnight.  She kept on and at 1205 I left the house. "

"I need her to think I do for the sake of the kids."

Did you take all the kids with you at 12:05 ???

If not, you departed, leaving all the kids with (your descriptions) a verbally, emotionally, physically, financially, sexually abusive woman. A manipulating, cheating, self-harming female who gave birth to your children.

Yet, your main issue with divorce is custody. If you're concerned about this abusive woman (again your description, not mine) having custody in divorce, but you are willing to abandon them with her so you can get some needed job-money sleep, that's hypocritical.

Just in this thread alone, your posts contain these statements:

"..yesterday she supposedly broke up with her boyfriend"

"..cost the family $300 that we don't have"

"She has threatened suicide and also cut herself."

".. physically block me from leaving the space"

" Her scream of how I am abusive was out loud and my 15yo heard it."

Are these the attributes of a loving mother?

Imo, what you are asking, regarding sleep, is imo ignoring the factual big picture because of your fear of the unknown.  Until you face that unknown head-on, what you and your kids face is the same abusive status quo, because this woman knows she holds the power by utilizing your fear!

What you're asking, regarding sleep is similar to:  "whats the best trick to remove the embedded thorns I receive from my daily walk?"  The best advice is not some trick to removing thorns, but to stop walking through thorn bushes!  Go another way!

You are not alone in this thinking Gman. So many people come Out of the FOG, yet do not equip themselves with the steeled backbone, thick skin, well-executed, risk-taking, fear-overcoming that is necessary to improve the lives of their abused children and therefore themselves.

Your children's parents are 'unchosens'.  Your children do not have the adult rights to make their parents 'chosens'.  YOU have a right to un-choose your wife. YOU have a right to attempt to rescue your children from the abusive woman who gave birth to them.  YOU hold the power of your own actions/reaction.  YOU are the rightful, lawful father of your children.  THEY need a father who will risk for them and do it boldly, legally, morally and calmly, putting THEM first at the risk of himself and his comfort zone. 

YOU chose to have multiple kids with this woman, so therefore YOU have to lead your children and yourself, out of the path of thorns.  Sleep imo, is not the real problem. GO-ANOTHER-WAY. 

SoT

*If I ever get silenced for boldly speaking truth about a situation where kids are truly at risk, as made by the statements in an Out of the FOG members posts, then I will also "go another way", and sleep peacefully in that truth, as truth and children's well-being is worth every risk. ✌️ 

[Gman22]

I was hoping you would see this SoT.  Keep the firm black/white advice and outside set of eyes coming to me.   I will take correcting comment thoughtfully!   You've been there.  You have a clear vision.

Know this - I will NOT win custody of my kids.  Not now.  If I leave and take them when she's acting crazy to me, it could force the divorce and leave kids with her 50% of the time.  Or more drama for the kids than me sliding out the door.  That's my honest assessment.  And yes - it destroys me inside to leave them with her but not for their physical well being.

Last night her words were so incorrect paranoid and poisonous that for the first time I started wondering if there's more than the PDs I suspect.  Maybe I JADEd way too much? 

But it was all directed at me not the kids.  I removed them for most of the evening and returned later to have everyone go to sleep. 

After bedtime (evening fairly quiet till then) the kids slept.  She usually hides in the room in the bath or sleeping.  After I got the kids to bed, Wife and I were not loud but I told her clearly that at midnight I would be going to sleep or leaving to find a place to sleep.  She didn't threaten any physical harm last night but my apologies and demonstrations of love for supposed misdeeds (there were no misdeeds) were insufficient for her.  I had stopped JADEing for at least an hour but she was stuck in a loop and She couldn't let me go to sleep.  I knew she would insist on sex as well.

I typically run on very little sleep and this was last straw before a big work day with lots of visibility. 

Don't misread my complaining of sleep as a luxury for me.  If I don't earn then everything blows up / crashes down.  Housing, food, etc.  I have a criminal record that I've hesitated sharing because I don't want to distract the conversation.   I faced a horrible accusation 4 years ago and after 3 years in legal system the DA reduced all charges hugely to a deferred sentence due to no evidence (I didn't do the crime).   I took the plea deal rather than risk a jury trial against a very nasty accusation.  Guilty verdict there would have been 20 years in prison.   I have NO criminal history or issues like this in my history before or since.

I've wondered if this trauma triggered other issues with wife.  She's had bad toxic behavior for a long time but much worse the last year or two.

I know this is a lot to unpack.  I don't understand logistically how it works to remove the kids from the house.  She would call the cops and if she's just being toxic, I don't know how that works for me to plead my case in the moment?

I am going to visit divorce attorney shortly to see if he thinks my chance at winning the kids win a divorce has improved from his initial 10% chance assessment.

I think the fear of the unknown is mostly behind me.  I crave the divorce.  What I fear most is leaving my kids with her in a divorce and I'm not there for 50% of the time. 

Edit:  I spoke with attorney for a while.  He advised that me removing the kids does not work in my favor in any scenario and a call to police would work against me potentially. 

Attorney says that my legal issues hurt but aren't deadly because there is a showing that the court doesn't really find me to be any danger to anyone.  But this starts me at a distinct disadvantage.

I shared tangible evidence of her misdeeds but attorney said none of it greatly tilts the scale.  He said keep gathering but best strategy in a divorce is to demand a psychological evaluation.

I would lose most custody of kids (visitation only) for 120 days in that scenario.  Hope is that the psych would find me to be suitable and her to be unsuitable.   In that scenario, it is still hard to say if I get primary custody of the kids but I very well may. 

I'm trying to be smart.  I'm trying to win the best long game possible which so far has been to avoid drama and endure for the kids.  Way too much drama last night for my liking. 

I know that for today I need to choose between apologizing to her and giving the best acting performance of my life, likely capped with her using leverage to have her way with me tonigh physically:  or else get my stuff and go somewhere else for the night / weekend to think. 

[Gman22]

A day of reflection and realize that I JADED hard last night.  So frustrated with myself.  Several days of 'normal' and I somehow don't recognize the completely irrational splitting for what it is.  :-/ need to do better.  Meanwhile tonight she was again in rare form but I did my grey rock and acted kinda dumb / confused which helps.

She contrived several medical emergencies most of which were debunked by my 12yo son on his phone w google.  The last medical freak out happened to be near a fire truck so I stopped there and let the paramedics check her out.  She was embarrassed and one paramedic pulled me to the side almost immediately and asked if she had anxiety issues.  There's a record made now of that event. 

[SonofThunder]

A day of reflection and realize that I JADED hard last night.  So frustrated with myself.  Several days of 'normal' and I somehow don't recognize the completely irrational splitting for what it is.  :-/ need to do better.  Meanwhile tonight she was again in rare form but I did my grey rock and acted kinda dumb / confused which helps.

She contrived several medical emergencies most of which were debunked by my 12yo son on his phone w google.  The last medical freak out happened to be near a fire truck so I stopped there and let the paramedics check her out.  She was embarrassed and one paramedic pulled me to the side almost immediately and asked if she had anxiety issues.  There's a record made now of that event.

Hi Gman,

I recommend that instead of being hard on oneself, that my Out of the FOG comrades consider all encounters in a mindfulness approach, as a learning and improvement tool. Obviously as a non-PD in relationship of some kind with a PD person, we are not short on the supply-side of devaluation. The toolbox is difficult. Therefore mindfulness practice, which expects some failure on a purposeful road to mastery, utilizes our shortcomings in toolbox-trial in a positive manner for self improvement. 

Although challenging, the toolbox is also very effective and an excellent pursuit. Imo, one of the goals for non's is to begin treating themselves with kindness, gentleness and forgiveness, combined with a high level of hopefulness and desire for self improvement.  Mindfulness requires that I step outside of myself in analysis, rise up high enough to evaluate each experience from end-to-end, determining where my actions and reactions were performed in alignment with the toolbox and where they were not. 

In the areas of my experience where improvement should occur, I like to mentally walk myself back through the troublesome scenario and envision myself acting/reacting in better alignment with the toolbox, considering how the outcome may have been modified. In that proactive mental practice, I find it serves me similar to muscle-memory, and I do recognize future similar experiences (as they are occurring) in comparison to my mental-memory practice, and am able to perform the toolbox in a more successful and calm manner, resulting in a better self-protective result.  Wishing you the best as you steadily improve in that area.

As for your previous reply to my thoughts, Im glad to read that you do not fear physical abuse with your children in the hands of their mother.  Please understand though that emotional and verbal abuse can have a direct physical result.  When the emotional and verbal abuse is a prolonged experience, it can create very difficult circumstances for the victim to overcome.  On that subject, I recommend reading the book 'The Body Keeps The Score'. 

Relating to your comment of "You've been there"; I was married for three decades to a uPD who was mostly covert, but had occasional displays of overt behaviors if situations were such to bring those traits to the surface.  I have a male acquaintance who's wife was more aligned to the descriptions you provide about your spouse.  My acquaintance wishes he had taken action to legally protect he and his kids much earlier, but he as well, waited for a more opportunistic time in his own life and for his own goals. Instead of opportunity arising, his uBPD wife became emotionally and physically unhinged in the discard stage of the IDD, and she became violent toward him, and used her teenage children as manipulated tools for his punishment. When she was cheating on him, the kids were a burden to her and she highly devalued the kids as well. It was an ugly scene that did not end well for any of them.

I understand what you wrote about your criminal record and that is unfortunate. My "black/white" writing is voicing an opinion regarding responsibility. Imo, when choosing to create children, we as parents must be willing to put aside our own comforts, conveniences and opportunities for those minor children we have created, because they do not have adult rights to protect themselves, and are highly subject to the very difficult emotional and physical challenges with unchosen parents.   

Looking back, I wish I was out of that f.o.g. much earlier in my life, as my adult-married children each now deal with the emotional difficulties of being raised in a prolonged, difficult and confusing home for 18 years.  Those emotional difficulties show up in both psychological and physical ways, and each of my children have their own burdens. Manageable with oral and topical medications, but nonetheless a byproduct of prolonged exposure and the confusion of what went on for so long inside the privacy of the home vs the facade outside those walls. 

SoT

[Gman22]

Thanks SoT.   She was very unregulated this weekend.  The kids hovered close by me.  That's not very new that they avoid her but she was very upset, anxious and spent a lot of time splitting me for not loving enough.  She was very urgent that we need to be doing a lot more to work on us. 

I felt like I listened and supported reasonably well...tough to do but I was consistent in letting her know that I love her and am not leaving her.  It's probably a fallacy to think that I could do anything to get ahead of this cycle for her. 

I'm afraid that now I'm awake and have done a decent job creating boundaries for myself (and for the kids too this weekend) that she is having a hard time adjusting to not getting her good feels.  I have boundaries and effective grey rock / med chill over the weekend means she didn't get as much of the usual feedback that sustains her. 

Interesting that she chose to break up w her BF at the same time as I've been working the toolset.  Need to learn more about why that is or maybe she got unhinged on him too and he ended it.   It's so perverse but I wish she had an outlet besides me or the kids.

Wondering if PD folks are able to adjust over some period of time or normalize a bit to a more enlightened audience with less tolerance for bad behavior.   I think that's what you were suggesting with your friend's situation.   The answer to my question may be yes or may get worse. 

It helps to sound these things out.  I did a great job protecting the kids this weekend.  And myself.  But the effect on her was evident.   

At no time over the weekend at all was I ugly or nasty to wife.   I did suggest to her at one moment, gently, that maybe her feeling of me not loving her and not engaging or doing enough to support our marriage may be coming from her not from me. 

I still await an event or evidence or indicator that it's much more likely that I get kids and can proceed with a divorce.   As I said in earlier post - not there yet but closer now with a better strategy of requiring psych eval on both of us. 

SoT - I wish we could sit on a porch for a spell but this is great too.  Maybe even better out in the open like this so others can learn too.  No reply or response necessary unless you see anything more I'm missing. 

- GMan

[Gman22]

Well Sunday and again today I did a pretty terrific job of med chill and also defending my kids from uPDw.  I stood up to her while she was phone snatching and going through my 15yo daughters phone and being a bully.   Again I confronted tonight as she absolutely crashed down on my daughter for some trivial issue.  So

I also confronted wifey yesterday on a huge financial mistake that I've tried many times for us to distance from.

I guess I'm kind of amazed that in all three instances (less so on the first instance) I have felt calm and not too scared or triggered at all.   My med chill is becoming effective, pleasant in tone and much more difficult to penetrate. 

I have noticed that in the last several days after keeping some tough boundaries to keep and med chill that my wife is really having a difficult time in life.   She's also picking on her 'mini me' much more (15yo).  I will defend my kids and  Will not stop.  I know that I'm less avail and so they are now on deck. 

My 15yo is awake.  My middle school  boy is half awake.  All of this on their own accord and it helps if I can let them know what's right and what's not okay.  My 10yo - I'm finishing a book to be sure I help him because she dotes on him but I think it's very unhealthy too in different ways.

I hope she doesn't radically lose it, but if she ever does in a criminal way - I will be ready.  Tonight she smashed a plate into a thousand pieces as I confronted her about picking on daughter.   I have it on DVR saved for future if needed.

There's still a piece of my heart that breaks for her.  She is so broken in her mind and so radically unhappy.  But I will not let her grind me nor the kids into the ground any more.

[SonofThunder]

Hi Gman.

Im happy to read about your focus on protecting the children and your diligent toolbox work for yourself.  You wife's becoming unhinged and turning to the violence of plate smashing is imo, deeply concerning.  Best wishes as you navigate the situation in your home, which you choose for you and the children to currently reside. 

SoT

[bloomie]

Gman22 - your circumstances and those your children are living in sounds dire. My very best advice for you is to contact domestic violence professionals and to find a trauma informed therapist for you and your children. In all kindness, what I see here is that you are possibly in a great deal of denial about the damage this is doing to you all and the potential dangers you all are facing from someone who sounds, from what you describe, highly unstable.

I am going to link some resources that I ask you consider using. We are a community of peers. We are not equipped to offer detailed one on one counsel for the level of difficulties you are describing. We can and will support you and encourage you, offer you the tools from our toolbox and resources, listen and care, but you are describing serious threats, interactions, and toxic behaviors that are very concerning.

Here is a very useful tool that can help you assess the risk and threat factor you and your children are facing currently:
https://www.mosaicmethod.com

Online Domestic Violence resource and counsel:
https://www.thehotline.org

And our Emergency resources:
https://outofthefog.website/emergency/

And most importantly, as SOT has pointed out, one of the things many of us that are survivors of just the type of domestic trauma you are describing here hold to is that we put children first. Always. Talking your situation through with trained professionals who can give you in person, real life, help and assess the damage to your children and yourself this is causing is something I cannot stress enough. Please consider talking with the pros as you find the best path forward.

https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/put-children-first

We also prioritize personal safety. Here is an article that can help you determine if you are doing that:
https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/ensure-your-own-personal-safety

My heart goes out to you and your children. I lived with a woman, my mother, who was so very much like what you describe here. I truly believe that my father mistakenly believed that most all of my mother's toxic behaviors were focused on him and that we were okay and she was a good enough person to us kids. She was not. She was cruel, abusive, neglectful, inappropriate, rivalrous, sneaky, and not safe. Myself, and all of my sibs carry the scars and have life long battles because of the atmosphere of risk we lived in day in and day out.

Please consider getting good, expert help for yourself and your children today. 

[SonofThunder]

  +1

SoT

[Gman22]

Thx Bloomie!  Read all the links, good info which reiterates what I've learned already.  And yes, must protect kids as top priority. 

Mosaic survey was thought provoking and a good exercise to see certain behaviors categorized and examples.  Helps to frame up where things stand. Very good advice and thanks.