Indifference

[StartingHealing]

Hello to all here!

I have a question for the community here.

How long did it take you to get to a point of being indifferent?  A point where you just don't care?

My thanks in advance!

Wishing all here Peace

[Srcyu]

Hello,
For me it took until her death from old age to release the "indifference."
Prior to that, she could still annoy me with her attempts of intrusion.

My memories of her behaviour remain intact and sometimes hit me, but then I carry on as before.

But feelings about her are null and void. She's gone - it's over.

Sorry, talking about my parent here which is not what you were asking. Apologies.


milly

[SonofThunder]

Hello to all here!

I have a question for the community here.

How long did it take you to get to a point of being indifferent?  A point where you just don't care?

My thanks in advance!

Wishing all here Peace

I personally don't believe it is a matter of time that grows indifference, but rather a radical, mindfulness-ability change in the non's thinking, once the non is able to stop being a dance partner on the (more frequent) Karpman drama triangle 🔺behaviors, and refusing to cycle again on the IDD.

I also do not believe that indifference is not caring.  I care about human beings, animals, plant life and natural resources.  I can be indifferent to a human's destructive behaviors and/or their attempts to disrupt others with predation and parasitic behaviors, yet still desire, and potentially facilitate, what is best for any person.

In my own experiences, the more difficult hurdle was getting totally off the 🔺 and IDD, while simultaneously practicing and fine-tuning the toolbox. Not only doing this with my two PD's but also in other areas of work, friends and others.  The toolbox is effective for all my relationships; individuals, groups and organizations such as work, religious, hobby and so forth.  For me, indifference balanced with love (desiring and potentially facilitating what is 'best') is a useful tool in life on this planet.

Is there a particular person in your life, with whom you don't yet have what you desire for yourself in 'indifference', yet still balancing your caring about them as you do other human beings around you (knowns and unknowns)?

SoT

[escapingman]

As SoT says, I still care for STBX and want her to be well and have as good life as she can under the circumstances. BUT, I can't give her that and I have accepted that and leave her to deal with her own issues. She has hurt me, she has dragged me through hell, but I don't desire any revenge for that, I just want to live in peace. Even though she is holding GC hostage through Parental Alienation I am not angry with her, I understand why she is doing it and what she believes, I can't change that, whatever I do.

I believe indifference is to care for someone but not caretake them.

[escapingman]

Just to add to what I wrote in my previous post, this doesn't go for evil MIL. I just hate her with a vengeance and would love to have her evilness exposed. But since I wasn't trauma bonded to her and never really entered the Karpman triangle with her it's not the same.

[SonofThunder]

Just to add to what I wrote in my previous post, this doesn't go for evil MIL. I just hate her with a vengeance and would love to have her evilness exposed. But since I wasn't trauma bonded to her and never really entered the Karpman triangle with her it's not the same.

Would you call an ambulance for your MiL, if it was needed and nobody else was aware?  If so, you can be indifferent, yet love.  I want to give you 'care' credits where due. 😉

SoT

[escapingman]

Would you call an ambulance for your MiL, if it was needed and nobody else was aware?  If so, you can be indifferent, yet love.  I want to give you 'care' credits where due. 😉

To be honest, I am not sure, but probably. She never called for one when FIL was dying and watched him suffer with what turned out to be sepsis for a week before eventually taking him to a non emergency doctor.

[SonofThunder]

Would you call an ambulance for your MiL, if it was needed and nobody else was aware?  If so, you can be indifferent, yet love.  I want to give you 'care' credits where due. 😉

To be honest, I am not sure, but probably. She never called for one when FIL was dying and watched him suffer with what turned out to be sepsis for a week before eventually taking him to a non emergency doctor.

Imo, what others do/don't-do, should not affect our choices for our own actions/reactions. Rather, imo our choices should be made by morals, ethics and laws, which for each of us, should be dictated by a foundational source outside of ourselves or other human beings. 

If we allow others to have an affect on us, so that we choose contrary to our foundational source's ethics, morals or laws, then imo, we are not really embodying the full self-control of 'indifference'. 

Self-protection can live alongside love for others (desiring what is 'best'). Its a purposeful mind and heart-change in ourselves, and takes practice to overcome the caretaker grooming that has shaped our past.  Therefore practice time imo, only helps us to solidify the new indifference mind/heart change into action/reaction habits, but imo time itself does not grow 'indifference'. Indifference does require mental determination, thick skin and a steeled backbone.   #fullcircle #dowhatisright #dowhatisbest #fulltoolbox

SoT

[square]

For me, indifference is about giving up all hope of change.

It's acceptance that the situation is what it is and I cannot influence the other person, only change myself.

It took me years to get past my problem-solving orientation and give up hope for my partner.

I highly recommend it, though. It's sad, but also very empowering.

[StartingHealing]

Hello,
For me it took until her death from old age to release the "indifference."
Prior to that, she could still annoy me with her attempts of intrusion.

My memories of her behaviour remain intact and sometimes hit me, but then I carry on as before.

But feelings about her are null and void. She's gone - it's over.

Sorry, talking about my parent here which is not what you were asking. Apologies.


milly

I can see where your coming from milly.  There was a person in the role of mother that, well, I have concluded that she had a PD.  She's no longer in this realm which strangely enough gave me a sense of possibility.  If that makes any sense.

[StartingHealing]

I personally don't believe it is a matter of time that grows indifference, but rather a radical, mindfulness-ability change in the non's thinking, once the non is able to stop being a dance partner on the (more frequent) Karpman drama triangle 🔺behaviors, and refusing to cycle again on the IDD.

Hello SOT.  I can see where the time factor had been implied in my question.  I need to be better at crafting such.

I also do not believe that indifference is not caring.  I care about human beings, animals, plant life and natural resources.  I can be indifferent to a human's destructive behaviors and/or their attempts to disrupt others with predation and parasitic behaviors, yet still desire, and potentially facilitate, what is best for any person.

I concur with caring about humans, animals, plant life and resources in a generalized context.   SOT, the symbology of language doesn't not adequately express the nuances of what I am attempting to communicate.  If there was an accident that she was involved in, yes I would make a call to EMS.  But I would do that for anybody.   Perhaps my concept of compassion would more closely align with your concept of care. 

In my own experiences, the more difficult hurdle was getting totally off the 🔺 and IDD, while simultaneously practicing and fine-tuning the toolbox. Not only doing this with my two PD's but also in other areas of work, friends and others.  The toolbox is effective for all my relationships; individuals, groups and organizations such as work, religious, hobby and so forth.  For me, indifference balanced with love (desiring and potentially facilitating what is 'best') is a useful tool in life on this planet.

Yes, I do believe that my idea of compassion matches your idea of care.  I need to dig into what my scope of meaning is when I speak of indifference. 

Is there a particular person in your life, with whom you don't yet have what you desire for yourself in 'indifference', yet still balancing your caring about them as you do other human beings around you (knowns and unknowns)?

A bit of backstory.  Multiple thousands of digital images, a fair percentage have the PD in them.  As I have been attempting to process these images (attempting to duplicate and place on media for the adult children.  They should have the images from their childhood / young adulthood.  )  my emotions start running high shall we say.  To me this is an indication that there is still unresolved, unexpressed, aspects of emotional processing, trauma bond, or something else.  It's been 9 months of NC, except for 1 court date and 2 zoom status checks.  Going through the images / videos came from a desire to clean up, clear out, to make space for the new that is coming.  To be "indifferent" is, I can have compassion, but the recognition that I am not responsible, and that I can observe without taking on.  I can still wish the best outcome for that person but it's that persons responsibility to make it so.  If that makes any sense. 

SoT

[SonofThunder]

Hi StartingHealing,

My apologies for any misunderstanding of your original post. 

Fyi I am using the word 'care' specifically because of the term 'caretaking'.  Caretaking traits are very good traits that we nons (who are caretakers) have been manipulated regarding, and we have allowed our good 'care' traits to be taken advantage of, to the point of its negative affect on our emotional and physical lives.  I will not dive into my specific definition of love, but is a term I spent almost an entire year researching in defining for myself. When I concluded my research, I conclude that love is indeed the term which is the wide-reaching definition I desired.  Im also a believer and follower of Jesus Christ, who was critical to my study, but this isn't the religious board, so I must refrain on that aspect. 

You just used 'compassion', but imo compassion is limited in scope compared to love.  Imo, care is also limited compared to love.  Imo 'indifference' is the ability to love while also fully self-protecting in full toolbox application.  It is also the ability to say no; to walk away boldly, allowing that other adult to adult themselves, even in hardship that is self-inflicted. If in 'love', they need an ambulence though, I will make the call.  If my 'love' for myself, or any other person with whom I believe I have responsibility to protect, needs my protection, I will protect as im capable and/or call professionals who are trained to do so, regardless of what the true perpatrator must suffer for not adulting themselves and abusing others, animals, assets or natural resources that we have a right to share/protect.

(Natural resources; im not talking about hunting or use of natural resources for humans to live, but something like poluting or damaging a public or private property through negligence or abuse of rights)

I have plenty of triggering moments in my continued separation to divorce and surely, photo's are a big one, as my memories live on and I hope so!  I will not forget both the bad or the good; there were both.  I will not attempt to erase my history..its MY history.  Music, smells, certain places and other things that remind me of my past and my broken marriage.  Dicorce is a real bitch!  Im not denying that one bit.

Ive written about this before, but there are plenty of nights when I have those strong feelings that I abandoned my young daughter in a dark, scary place in the city and she is helpless and afraid.  I was married for three decades and expect to have these feelings for a very long time, maybe forever.  I do not connect those emotional outflows in myself with a lack of indifference or weakness, but rather to my humanness with those who have long histories with me.  If I did not have these feelings, I believe there would be something abnormal with me. 

Imo, indifference is a purposeful mindset, which is what I was trying to share before. Its not, imo 'coldness', but a mindful "giving up all hope of change" and "acceptance that the situation is what it is and I cannot influence the other person, only change myself" (quoting Square's words).  Once we claim that for truth, and refuse to dance on the 🔺and cycle in the IDD, we can break those trauma bonds (another good current thread btw) and resolve to proactively 'love' (again im using because of my opinion of its scope of definition) while fully protecting ourself, recognizing the PD traits and ignoring them, while carefully guiding our own actions/reactions.  Like all good and difficult things imo, indifference starts with that "giving up" and "acceptance" that Square stated.  When I recognize the unbalanced trauma-bond emotions poking their head in my door, I mindfully become aware of their presence, but I just let them be, while I float up, over the top and back down, like being one with a wave. 

Eventually I find that mindfulness allows me to recognize, but not adopt, and I become indifferent to those incoming emotions as well; simply accepting that they are what they are and love myself.  Ive used this analogy before, but in the same way, im indifferent to the plight of the homeless on the street corner. I accept they are adults and must adult themselves; I do not give; I do not have compassion or provide care, but with regard to human rights, I understand I am equal to them. If they violate my rights, I self-protect.  With my love for them as a fellow human being, I will assist only if they truly cannot help themselves; which just may mean I need to call an ambulance.  These corner beggars choose to be on the street corner, yet they have options. I financially support a shelter in my city which provides full care and compassion to those in hardship that desire to adult themselves. The shelter turns away compassion and care to those who are not willing to help themselves. Those people whom the shelter accepts are the true homeless in society.  I 'love' the homeless at the shelter, through my support, but again, indifferent toward the ones that do not attempt to care for themselves.  I dont have compassion for drug addicts or drunks who are not proactively in programs at the shelter. I have plenty of drug/dropout/flat-broke experience in my 20's. 

Haha im not certain if Im yet providing an opinion that aligns with the true meaning of your post.  🤣

Cheers my comrade,

SoT

[StartingHealing]

Hi StartingHealing,

My apologies for any misunderstanding of your original post.  No worries.  Has been beneficial to me to more closely inspect / analyze various aspects of self.

Fyi I am using the word 'care' specifically because of the term 'caretaking'.  Caretaking traits are very good traits that we nons (who are caretakers) have been manipulated regarding, and we have allowed our good 'care' traits to be taken advantage of, to the point of its negative affect on our emotional and physical lives. Very concise summation. I concur wholeheartedly. I will not dive into my specific definition of love, That is a rabbit hole that I am going down myself.  I find it striking that the larger societal definition has been applied. In many respects the idea of "love" has come to mean only the romantic / honeymoon phase of a relationship. but is a term I spent almost an entire year researching in defining for myself. When I concluded my research, I conclude that love is indeed the term which is the wide-reaching definition I desired. Ah yes, coming to a personal understanding of all the possible connotations of what is ultimately only a symbol for something. I'm also a believer and follower of Jesus Christ, who was critical to my study, but this isn't the religious board, so I must refrain on that aspect.

You just used 'compassion', but imo compassion is limited in scope compared to love.  Imo, care is also limited compared to love.  Imo 'indifference' is the ability to love while also fully self-protecting in full toolbox application.  It is also the ability to say no; to walk away boldly, allowing that other adult to adult themselves, even in hardship that is self-inflicted. If in 'love', they need an ambulence though, I will make the call.  If my 'love' for myself, or any other person with whom I believe I have responsibility to protect, needs my protection, I will protect as im capable and/or call professionals who are trained to do so, regardless of what the true perpetrator must suffer for not adulting themselves and abusing others, animals, assets or natural resources that we have a right to share/protect. What you have stated as far as actions falls in the realm of my definition of compassion. 

(Natural resources; im not talking about hunting or use of natural resources for humans to live, but something like polluting or damaging a public or private property through negligence or abuse of rights)

I have plenty of triggering moments in my continued separation to divorce and surely, photo's are a big one, as my memories live on and I hope so!  I will not forget both the bad or the good; there were both.  I will not attempt to erase my history..its MY history.  Music, smells, certain places and other things that remind me of my past and my broken marriage.  Divorce is a real bitch!  Im not denying that one bit. I'm not attempting to remove the memories, only in removing the emotional charge associated with them.  To fade, to drain their emotional color to where they are black and white. As an example,  My father passed in a traffic accident that was so severe the funeral was a closed casket affair in the spring of the year that I turned 14.  I was in school when it happened. I believe it was social studies class when a family friend who was also a teacher came to pull me from class to tell me the news in the hallway. If these memories still had the emotional charge, the emotional color,  I would be in a not good state emotionally. As it is, I can communicate this without undue distress.  and yes, I still miss him.   

Ive written about this before, but there are plenty of nights when I have those strong feelings that I abandoned my young daughter in a dark, scary place in the city and she is helpless and afraid.  I was married for three decades and expect to have these feelings for a very long time, maybe forever.  I do not connect those emotional outflows in myself with a lack of indifference or weakness, but rather to my humanness with those who have long histories with me.  If I did not have these feelings, I believe there would be something abnormal with me.  As a father I do have a sense of where you are coming from in the regards of the feelings of abandoning someone.  I was married for 25.  I have come to the conclusion, and perhaps I'm incorrect, that with the ex, she used that feeling as another avenue for manipulating me.  If that is the case in my situation then these feelings while being true for me were created under a false pretense. As such I am very suspicious of them.  Also, doesn't this fall under the adulting aspect that you mentioned earlier? 

Imo, indifference is a purposeful mindset, which is what I was trying to share before. Its not, imo 'coldness', but a mindful "giving up all hope of change" and "acceptance that the situation is what it is and I cannot influence the other person, only change myself" (quoting Square's words).  Once we claim that for truth, and refuse to dance on the 🔺and cycle in the IDD, we can break those trauma bonds (another good current thread btw) and resolve to proactively 'love' (again im using because of my opinion of its scope of definition) while fully protecting ourself, recognizing the PD traits and ignoring them, while carefully guiding our own actions/reactions.  Like all good and difficult things imo, indifference starts with that "giving up" and "acceptance" that Square stated.  When I recognize the unbalanced trauma-bond emotions poking their head in my door, I mindfully become aware of their presence, but I just let them be, while I float up, over the top and back down, like being one with a wave.  Definitely.  I have given up all hope for change in the ex. I have also accepted that I can only move forward by acceptance of what is.  I was asked once by a friend if I would ever accept her back and I replied in the negative because she will never change. She is as she is and how she is isn't conducive to my well being.  Short term or long term.  I have observed her actions with the replacement and she is following the same play book that she used with me. currently she is still in the love bombing phase while maintaining her ultimate victim status while living off of other peoples money. 

Eventually I find that mindfulness allows me to recognize, but not adopt, and I become indifferent to those incoming emotions as well; simply accepting that they are what they are and love myself.  Ive used this analogy before, but in the same way, im indifferent to the plight of the homeless on the street corner. I accept they are adults and must adult themselves; I do not give; I do not have compassion or provide care, but with regard to human rights, I understand I am equal to them. If they violate my rights, I self-protect.  With my love for them as a fellow human being, I will assist only if they truly cannot help themselves; which just may mean I need to call an ambulance.  These corner beggars choose to be on the street corner, yet they have options. I financially support a shelter in my city which provides full care and compassion to those in hardship that desire to adult themselves. The shelter turns away compassion and care to those who are not willing to help themselves. Those people whom the shelter accepts are the true homeless in society.  I 'love' the homeless at the shelter, through my support, but again, indifferent toward the ones that do not attempt to care for themselves.  I don't have compassion for drug addicts or drunks who are not proactively in programs at the shelter. I have plenty of drug/dropout/flat-broke experience in my 20's. SOT your outlook and mine definitely align.  The verbiage has been the stumbling point.  I do appreciate your willingness to share and to stimulate introspection to help people here find clarity in the midst of an extraordinary stressful time.  I have had some experiences in my younger years, lived to party, no thought to the future, a very hedonistic lifestyle.  I wasn't adulting myself at that time.   And as one would expect, there were consequences.  I got really good at walking and getting rides for several years.  To be clear, I do not wish the ex any harm or ill.  If there was an accident, I would make a call.  Any more after that? would be a no.   

Haha im not certain if Im yet providing an opinion that aligns with the true meaning of your post.  🤣 I believe that we have done well in reaching an thorough understanding good sir.

Cheers my comrade, 

SoT

[StartingHealing]

For me, indifference is about giving up all hope of change.

I can see that especially when it comes to another person.

It's acceptance that the situation is what it is and I cannot influence the other person, only change myself.

Not falling into the hope against hope, that it seems I used to do

It took me years to get past my problem-solving orientation and give up hope for my partner.

I highly recommend it, though. It's sad, but also very empowering.

I agree that it is very saddening.  In my situation when the ex was around, one of the games was her "pretending" to change, to be more adult, and then go back to her usual behavior.  As a guy, I know that I have that problem solving sub-routine running all the time.  It's inherent I think. She would use that to her advantage though.  Always another "issue" or situation or problem that she created but she had the expectation that I would solve it for her.  There were also a couple of times where it almost ended in a physical altercation between me and another guy.   

[SonofThunder]

StartingHealing, you wrote:

"What you have stated as far as actions falls in the realm of my definition of compassion".   

I am of the opinion that what is 'best' for others, in some areas of my own life where I hold high responsibilities for proper decision-making , is that my (rightful) decisions on behalf of others may be very difficult for them to emotionally endure and even painful in certain hardships.  At the time of my decision-making, the other person is not able to see what is 'best', but later they realize (and sometimes acknowledge) that it was a proper decision for them, on my part.  Easy examples can be drawn from my roles as an employer, a father and a husband.

Regarding me being an employer, I have had more than one former employee who has returned years later, telling me that suffering through the hardship of being fired, was the wake-up call they needed as a young person. At the time of their employment with me, they were able to get the necessary work done and in a quality manner, but their attitude was all wrong; their respect for necessary hierarchy in leadership was wrong, and starting to rub off on other employees. They, like my own children over their many years at home, needed to learn a good lesson via hardship. 

Do you believe that compassion's definition is the best fit for that action I described?  I believe the true definition of love is the best fit.  Again, not the religious board and so I will stop after this next comment, but imo what is written about Jesus Christ's actions/reactions toward and for other humans, is the best model for the tremendous scope of 'love'.

I actually believe I was loving myself by initiating a divorce, but also loving my stbx by doing so. Imo, part of the scope within love's definition is freedom.  My stbx didn't make me be a caretaker for decades, but fostered the manipulative conditions in which it thrived.  I hard-worked my way out of caretaking, despite my wife's desires, which proves I had the power in me the whole time, but the F.O.G. kept me uneducated, my skin was thin, my backbone not reinforced and bonds kept me from reaching indifference.  Therefore, when my wife stated to me repetitively in the final year "SoT, you are NOT the same man I married!"  That is absolutely true. I changed myself. 

Quite frankly, my wife was legally bound in marriage to a man who purposefully became a different man, and my wife wanted her husband back. She did not say "I do" to the new SoT.  As much as divorce is a excruciating hardship, I have not only freed myself from attempted abuse, but have freed my stbx from a marriage to a stranger. My stbx's physical health has improved 😊.  In fact, in recent past months (despite her laser focus on maximizing her $ distribution) stated to my adult daughter, that this divorce should have happened a long time ago (needing her freedom).  My stbx is playing the defendant victim big time, but she is FREE and she's enjoying it now that shes found her routine and how to keep a cycle of friends coming through her daily door helping to keep FoA (fear of abandonment) at bay.  She plays 'hardship' around me, my GC adult child and anyone else who needs to see victim, but around her girlfriends and around my other child, a totally different scenario.  Im getting a divorce to 'love' not only myself but my stbx as well.  She needs to be free to find a man who is the same man she marries.

With regard to indifference and timing;  I'm so sorry to read that you lost your father tragically at a very young age.  I believe time does its magic on all things, and in time I'm hoping to not feel the heartstring tug periodically regarding the abandonment side of my divorce.  When my stbx starts dating, which I suspect will be very soon, I believe my abandonment feeling's frequency will be greatly reduced, if not absent, never to return.  I proactively choose to practice indifference, purposefully struggling against the current to achieve. Time has a way of easing the ability to achieve indifference without so much difficult mental effort.

*Readers Feedback:  It is very difficult for me to read, when someone quotes a post and then writes their replies within the quoted text.  I tend to not want to make the effort to read those at all. StartingHealing's last two posts were created that way, despite the colorization of the text replies within. I want to provide my feedback in the event others are like me, as I desire these excellent conversations to receive as much readership as possible. 

Cheers!

SoT

[StartingHealing]

SOT

My apologies. 

Wishing you all the best

[hhaw]

Hello to all here!

I have a question for the community here.

How long did it take you to get to a point of being indifferent?  A point where you just don't care?

My thanks in advance!

Wishing all here Peace

It wasn't a matter of time, for me.

It was discovering the causes of my reactivity, learning new coping strategies and choosing to cultivate responsiveness over reactivity in every moment. 

Sometimes I choose to let reactivity take me.  I suspect what you refer to as indifference is the natural outcome of processing trauma out of the limbic system, to stop it ping ponging around, transposing itself over our lives.

Reactivity is the brain experiencing old trauma in the present, as though it's happening now. 

A good trauma informed T understands this and has strategies, all kinds, to stop the unhwlpful patterns, ime.

[SonofThunder]

SOT

My apologies. 

Wishing you all the best

Hi my friend.  My comments about paragraph formatting is simply my provided reading feedback for writers; take it or leave it.  Its not a right or wrong, but rather an expressed opinion.  The font size in the quoted image (blue rectangle above) is very small and imo, hard to read. 

Also text in that blue quoted reply portion becomes an image once a reply is sent, so any copy/paste of text in the blue quoted rectangle is not possible.  Personally, I desire to pull text from replies to reference and copy/paste is easy vs retyping the entire text. Therefore, if a writer writes their reply in between the quoted text (using your replies as an example), the entire reply becomes an image once sent.  No apologies necessary, as I was not offended. 

Thanks to you and anyone for any consideration give, in typing a reply outside the quoted reply section, such as is done on this reply.  All the best in return.

SoT