The push for ‘forgiveness‘ by the church

[Daughterofnarc]

For starters I'm a born again Christian

But recently I have had my doubts again

Mainly because my life has been a car crash due to multiple personality disordered folks targeting me, including my abusive mother

I am tired of the demonic attacks and whilst I'm still a believer I am doubting what god is doing with me. At times I've felt very sure of his purpose for me ....but then another trauma occurs, worse than the last and I'm back to square one.

Growing up with a narcissist mother has been a thorough nightmare, a living hell

It makes me ask god, why me? I would never do that . Why do I deserve this?

I have worked so hard to become nothing like my mother, but yet she continues trying to smear, isolate and destroy me

I truly believe, pure spirits get targeted more aggressively because the demonic sees itself exposed in our presence . They cannot fool or control us the same. We actually abide by morals and stick to them. 

Ironically my narcissist mother was the first person to take me to church, which is why it left a sour taste in my mouth & I strayed away from Christianity for years

I fell into the new age stuff for a while until I realised it wasn't me. It didn't have enough structure - there was too many conflicting ideals . Too much chaos.

In fact some elements of new age spirituality could send you crazy, such as Angel numbers. If you pay attention to every number everywhere, assigning meaning to every one,  you could drive yourself insane.

I noticed new age stuff was making me more paranoid and more confused. My head felt cluttered.

Whilst I learned some interesting stuff searching esoteric subjects (especially about the third eye & goddess worshipping religions) I found myself lost and astray. It started feeling uncomfortable , the wrong path

Then I had a wake up call and returned to Jesus again , realising my mother had steered me off course

A rape in my teens further deterred me from church communities as a Catholic told me all babies are a gift from god including those by rapists. I did not agree

I can't explain it but I've always believed in the supernatural and a high power / sense of oneness but multiple characters within the church community really put me off. It didn't feel like the safe space as advertised. To me church was meant to be a safe haven, a sacred place where you could escape the chaos and narcissism of society. However I knew multiple narcs in the church, I guess this formed a generalisation- who else was hiding their sins?!

Eventually it felt fake keeping up the act with my abusive supposedly Christian mother. I stopped going to church and went the new age route instead

In fact I've met many fake Christian's in my time who talk the talk but don't walk it

I've met multiple Christian's who can't recognise evil even when it's under their nose....for example Christian's defending  my extremely abusive mother and preaching forgiveness

This can be one of the most dangerous Christian values for victims of PDs

Because you constantly forgiving them and tolerating their nonsense is what keeps you stuck in the cycle for years

It's actually when you accept your feelings of anger & resentment as justified that you can start to move on and set real boundaries

For me being angry and disgusted at my mother was the only real thing that motivated me to go no contact

The excessive empathy route pushed by the church/ spiritual community and even some therapists kept me TRAPPED

The only person I forgive is myself for tolerating it so long: unfortunately I cannot bring myself to forgive her as she will never apologise has no empathy and enjoys my suffering. Forgiveness is something that is earned in my book

Of course this frustrates Christians I bump into who so badly want me to play happy families and forgive my sadistic ungrateful mother. But it is a boundary I will keep.

I would be sat in church with my narcissist mother thinking , gosh this is all part of her act and a way to disguise herself as a good person, of which she is absolutely not. She is a serial sinner of the highest degree. Calling herself Christian is laughable.

In my life I have never met someone so spiritually disturbed, hypocritical, two faced and un Christ like.

Anyway besides that annoying obstacle I do have a lot in common with Christian believes

But I think it's really dangerous when overzealous evangelicals PUSH forgiveness on vulnerable victims of narcissists, especially when they're family

On the severe end, this could lead to women being punched or killed...or put their kids at risk

What are your thoughts on this?

Do you think forgiving the abuser is key to healing? Personally I don't think it is

In my experience constantly forgiving my abusive mother because 'she's my mom'.....it left me with even more trauma I could have avoided

This is a topic I wish the church would take more seriously as it really drivers a lot of believers away

We feel anger and resentment for a reason ...it's our bodies alarm system and boundaries are key to keeping us safe

You cannot keep boundaries if you keep on forgiving an abuser and keep trying to keep up with the bonded

[square]

Hugs.

I'm a Christian but an outsider.

I observe the same things you do. As an outsider, I do not feel bound by the human institutions of the churches. My background is Catholic, so I feel perfectly free to consider the church as falliable as any human.

From my Catholic background, I was quite angered when Pope Francis started talking Forgiveness in regard to the Scandals.

NO.

I do not believe for an instant Christ would have been lecturing the victims to forgive. He would have been denouncing the abuse.

Did he say forgive seven times seventy? Ugh, yes, but CONTEXT.

All churches are full of Pharisees, it's built into the fabric of humanity. Jesus pointed them out time and time again.

The commandments are for us to observe and practice - not to monitor and enforce in others. But some types of people like to spend their time attending the mote in your eye and never think once about the plank in theirs.

Jesus tried hard to give us a message, and few of us got it (not claiming to be one who did). It's the human condition and the churches are made of humans.

My understanding is that you do not owe your mother forgiveness. You can stay away from her always, or distrust her always, you do not owe her any obedience. To say you do is a tool wielded by those who back the powerful over the meek.

Is there maybe a peace you might come to someday where you might, from a place of safety, to some extent set down the heavy rock that is your mother? I don't know, but that's something for YOU and has absolutely nothing to do with her.

[SonofThunder]

Hugs.

I'm a Christian but an outsider.

I observe the same things you do. As an outsider, I do not feel bound by the human institutions of the churches. My background is Catholic, so I feel perfectly free to consider the church as falliable as any human.

From my Catholic background, I was quite angered when Pope Francis started talking Forgiveness in regard to the Scandals.

NO.

I do not believe for an instant Christ would have been lecturing the victims to forgive. He would have been denouncing the abuse.

Did he say forgive seven times seventy? Ugh, yes, but CONTEXT.

All churches are full of Pharisees, it's built into the fabric of humanity. Jesus pointed them out time and time again.

The commandments are for us to observe and practice - not to monitor and enforce in others. But some types of people like to spend their time attending the mote in your eye and never think once about the plank in theirs.

Jesus tried hard to give us a message, and few of us got it (not claiming to be one who did). It's the human condition and the churches are made of humans.

My understanding is that you do not owe your mother forgiveness. You can stay away from her always, or distrust her always, you do not owe her any obedience. To say you do is a tool wielded by those who back the powerful over the meek.

Is there maybe a peace you might come to someday where you might, from a place of safety, to some extent set down the heavy rock that is your mother? I don't know, but that's something for YOU and has absolutely nothing to do with her.

+1

I believe that on the cross, Christ took upon himself the entire collection of human sin (past, present and future), and in his death conquered sin's stronghold, banishing all that sin to its rightful home. He also defeated death in his resurrection.

In doing so, Jesus becomes the gatekeeper for humans to be admitted to a sinless Heaven.  The only way to shed our sin and enter a sinless Heaven is to accept the incredible work that Christ did for us by coming here to Earth in real human relationship, loving us by his selfless and terrible experience at the hands of abusers, and judging all that sin (past, present and future), assigning it a home not in Heaven. He did nothing to deserve any of the abuse and the exact opposite is true, as he deserves nothing but our worship.

Therefore, imo we as humans cannot actually forgive another human's sin; because Christ already did that sin work on the cross (past, present and future).  Therefore imo, if a human does not accept Christ's sin-work, then that human, upon his/her desth gets to reside after death, with the sin.  If they accept Christ's undeserving  gift of his sin-work, then Christ allows us, on his merits alone, to pass through the gate and reside in a sinless Heaven with him.

That is also why I believe that 'forgiveness' as an action, is for us humans to give the abuse experiences to Jesus and let him deal with the abuser, instead of us attempting to somehow pardon the abuser, which is not our job, but Christs job.  Imo, humans attempting to do Christ's job is dishonorable to the torture that Christ experienced in his work on the cross. I dont ever desire to dishonor him and since he already took on that abusive sin that I experience, I simply recognize it and give it to Christ.  Doing so, actually frees me to protect myself fully from the abuse, and the abuser can take any complaint they have regarding my self-protection, to Christ the judge and see what he has to say.. 😏😂

Therefore, knowing that Christ himself was horribly abused by humanity, I can expect similar treatment from the same type of self-focused crowd who tortured him.  When I recognize it, name it and decide to protect myself, I give that hurtful experience done to me, to Christ to judge, and I focus on my self-protection. I am not in the pardoning business, but am in the sin-giving business, which imo is what 'forgiveness' is provide for, as a tool for us to give sin to Christ.  Therefore also, my sin-giving (forgiveness) has nothing to do with the sinner; its between me and Christ. 

SoT

[SonofThunder]

I want to add:  imo, we have the perspective of reading Matthew 18 from after the resurrection, but Christ gave those difficult forgiveness instructions pre-cross. 

Imo, once realizing after resurrection, that Christ's cross-work was to judge all past, present and future sin, then it becomes clear to me that his pre-cross "seventy, seven times" is Jesus cleverly saying "you will understand in the near future my friends, just give all the experienced sin to me, every time! I can handle it folks, and I will clearly show you! " 😉

Again imo, attempting to pardon abuse to the abuser, is a slap in the face to Christ's cross-work. Im not a judge. Christ is the deserving judge!  He can deal with it, while I self-protect. 👍

SoT

[Call Me Cordelia]

I love this article: "No Forgiveness for the Unrepentant."

https://luke173ministries.org/no-forgiveness-for-the-unrepentant/

This article has all the Scripture that enabler-types love to quote on forgiveness but applies context and common sense. Spoiler: You aren't obliged to "turn the other cheek" over and over and over again. In fact, you're exactly right, that's not doing anybody any good.

I'm Catholic too and I've encountered this attitude from family members, school teachers who would rather just tell me to suck it up and be a saint rather than deal with a problem, and really all sorts who prefer their own comfort and complacency to dealing with reality.

That said, for myself, I don't want to stay stuck in my anger. I do think there comes a point where I will be ready to let go of it. Call that forgiveness if you like, I suppose, but I'm happy to simply leave that in the Lord's hands. I am not the judge of their soul. I can and should judge their actions otherwise we could never make any kind of boundaries. But as to their eternal destiny, I can at least intellectually detach myself from that whole question. I'm not at the point where I can genuinely hope they make it to Heaven, but I don't exactly feel glee over the idea of them in Hell either. I just kind of don't want anything to do with them at all. I'm glad I have no power over where they end up.

But about people not seeing who your mother really is... I think it can be worthwhile trying to find some forgiveness for them. You certainly don't have to tolerate their admonitions or agree. But "Father forgive them THEY KNOW NOT what they do." They really don't! And for many of us here we really didn't either... until we did. Trying to hold compassion for those who just don't stinkin' know better helped me to forgive myself for all the years I wasted in FOG. Calming down the outer critic helped with the inner critic, in Pete Walker's terms.

[moglow]

I love this article: "No Forgiveness for the Unrepentant."  https://luke173ministries.org/no-forgiveness-for-the-unrepentant/

This article has all the Scripture that enabler-types love to quote on forgiveness but applies context and common sense. Spoiler: You aren't obliged to "turn the other cheek" over and over and over again. In fact, you're exactly right, that's not doing anybody any good.

Not at all what I've always been told/taught! Sharing it with my brothers, very timely topic for us. Thx for this!

[square]

Great link. I added it to my notes.

[bloomie]

Daughterofnarc - as another who has had a fundamental misunderstanding of Biblical forgiveness weaponized against me and been blugeoned with it by often well meaning folks, I get where so much confusion comes in.

We have a perfect example of how forgiveness 'works' in the requirement that we acknowledge our stuff (sin), where we have fallen short, to God. When I confess my sin and believe on the atoning work of Jesus, who took on the sin of the world on the cross, I am exonerated. The slate is wiped and I am made clean and whole. Restored to a right relationship with God.

This is the type of forgiveness I have experienced the church - meaning church leaders and other christians, have insisted be applied to my own broken relationships with unrepentant, repeat offending family members and have required of me. That I exonerate them and restore full, complete relationship with them.

Like SOT, I do not believe I have the power to 'grant' forgiveness. And that it would be out of order and potentially destructive to attempt to wipe the slate clean with an unrepentant person. God does not do that. And we must not either.

The thing I believe that God's word makes clear is required of me when faced with unrepentant, repeat offenders is that I take care to not let any root of bitterness and hate grow in the garden of my life and undermine my ability to bear much fruit. I am responsible to recognize, uproot and release to God the offenses against me for Him to eventually judge. I am responsible to put fences around my garden and a gate and to only let "good" things grow there. So, I am responsible to both uproot and tend, protect and have wisdom in who/how/when/if I open the gate to another.

And those "good" things are not what others say are good or what others say are right, but rather what God says is good and right.

Philippians 4:8-9 "Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you."

By holding appropriate inner and outer boundaries and releasing those things I cannot change to God, refusing to allow a root of bitterness to grow up and threaten the vitality of my life, by choosing to not retaliate, slander, return evil for evil, I am walking in a posture of grace and faithfulness. Releasing, when we are sincerely ready and able to, is an act of mercy and forgiveness toward the unrepentant in our life. And that is enough. It surely is. 

It is important, when looking for a faith community, to be discerning and wise about how healthy or unhealthy the community is while balancing the reality that we are all messy and fall short. It is easy, having been so manipulated and disillusioned in the past by those claiming to be Christ followers that we have a hard time trusting.

I have found, in my faith community, that there is a realistic, healthy, Biblically sound understanding of the complexities those of us who come from toxic family systems, or have been married to disordered and/or mental ill people struggle with. I hope, if you want a faith community for yourself, that you will find one that has a better grasp of the human suffering within disordered relationships and can offer good, wise counsel and support to you.

[moglow]

The thing I believe that God's word makes clear is required of me when faced with unrepentant, repeat offenders is that I take care to not let any root of bitterness and hate grow in the garden of my life and undermine my ability to bear much fruit. I am responsible to recognize, uproot and release to God the offenses against me for Him to eventually judge. I am responsible to put fences around my garden and a gate and to only let "good" things grow there. So, I am responsible to both uproot and tend, protect and have wisdom in who/how/when/if I open the gate to another.

And those "good" things are not what others say are good or what others say are right, but rather what God says is good and right.

Philippians 4:8-9 "Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you."

By holding appropriate inner and outer boundaries and releasing those things I cannot change to God, refusing to allow a root of bitterness to grow up and threaten the vitality of my life, by choosing to not retaliate, slander, return evil for evil, I am walking in a posture of grace and faithfulness. Releasing, when we are sincerely ready and able to, is an act of mercy and forgiveness toward the unrepentant in our life. And that is enough. It surely is. 

This speaks to my soul, Bloomie. You said it very well.

[SonofThunder]

+1 Bloomie!

Bloomie wrote:

"I am responsible to recognize, uproot and release to God the offenses against me for Him to eventually judge."

Also:

"I am responsible to put fences around my garden and a gate and to only let "good" things grow there. So, I am responsible to both uproot and tend, protect and have wisdom in who/how/when/if I open the gate to another. "

In addition:

"And those "good" things are not what others say are good or what others say are right, but rather what God says is good and right. "

Yes agree. All three of those are not directing any attempted 'relief' (emotional, physical, financial or situational) or 'pardon' to the offender.  Imo, no communication with the offender is necessary for me to "...recognize, uproot and release" in proper relationship with God in these harmful situations. 

Also agree with Bloomie, the fences and garden gate are my self-protection. I do not reveal myself protective motives or procedures, because that reveals my protective hand (poker analogy) to manipulators and exposes my war plans (war analogy).  Imo, fence and gate construction require no interaction with the offender. 

"...recognize, uproot and release to God"  also answers the burden in contemplating 'forgiveness' with an offender who is deceased or incapable of locating and/or communicating.  Imo, if forgiveness required another human being, then those incapabilities would teach me that I may misunderstand Gods definition of forgiveness. 

SoT

[Mary]

Thank you for this robust discussion. I greatly appreciate many comments and the resource for Luke 17:3 Ministries. My thinking has been challenged.

My thinking about forgiveness has been with the analogy of a door. When I forgive, I open the door to reconciliation should the offender choose to repent and walk through that open door that is available. I may extend an olive branch if warranted. I may overlook the fault and not hold it against the person if it is a small matter or irritation (aka 70x7). Sometimes time heals and helps me forget about it, and there's no sense bringing it up again. But making unwise decisions to trust the unrepentant because I have "forgiven" would not be right.  Boundaries must be set, trust rebuilt, and healing encountered before moving forward with actionable steps like sharing my inner feelings or signing a joint loan. Forgiveness opens the door, but repentance facilitates the reconciliation. 

I welcome your critique.

[SonofThunder]

In the interesting dialog, I ask

1. Who is the human action of forgiveness designed to benefit?  The perpetrator, the victim?  Both?

2. From the Luke17:3 article: 

" NO ONE gets forgiven without changing his ways and turning to God and godliness."

" Abusers would just love an excuse to obligate us to forgive them without the slightest effort to make amends, commitment to change, or anything expected of them at all."

The perpetrator on the cross next to Jesus could not remove himself from the cross. He obviously was accused of harming others in a way worthy of Roman law to torture him to death.  Jesus forgave him. We know nothing of the victim(s) of the perp's crime.  I'm of the opinion thats Gods designs are flawless, therefore God's design and meaning of forgiveness, is that it may be carried out every single time, no matter what. If the perp on the cross next to Jesus was only required to trust Christ as his savior, and couldn't move at all, what "effort" did the perp make that earned him a forgiven place in paradise?   Imo Jesus is the sole direction in which to focus, not Jesus + effort elsewhere.  The thief could not walk through any open door other that Christ's "efforts", done in pure grace, on the cross.

3. Depending on one's answer to #1:  If the perp dies in the offense that hurts us terribly in some manner, is God's design of forgiveness rendered useless?   Ive already stated my opinion earlier, and Im sticking with it, because its fully useful in design, in all situations

SoT

[Mary]

I want to add:  imo, we have the perspective of reading Matthew 18 from after the resurrection, but Christ gave those difficult forgiveness instructions pre-cross. 
SoT

Yes, I agree. We don't forgive to get forgiven, but because we are forgiven.
The topic of the two thieves on the cross makes it quite simple I think. One repented toward Christ and was forgiven, and the other did not and was not.

Probably the easiest context for me to think about forgiveness is in the area of a debt being forgiven. It no longer needs to be paid back.

[SonofThunder]

The topic of the two thieves on the cross makes it quite simple I think. One repented toward Christ and was forgiven, and the other did not and was not.

Hi Mary,

The two thieves on the cross next to Jesus were the perpetrators.  Where were the true victims of their crime?  Yes only one was granted forgiveness; because that perp turned to Jesus.

I do not read of any victim(s) of those two perps offering any "forgiveness opens the door".  I read of the power of forgiveness belonging squarely on the shoulders of Christ's work.  Christ solely holds that door open because of HIS work, not my work.  Repentance walks through the door that CHRIST holds open.

Therefore, I believe my job, when Im the victim of a perp, is to communicate with Christ only and transfer/give my woes to Christ, because he can handle it. I can ask Christ to make that forgiveness door known to the perp, should they not know Christ is holding it open.  If the perp actually desires forgiveness, the perp can repent to the one I transferred my hurts upon, and the perp's true repentance (only Christ knows if its true), will enable Christ's gift of the repentance door of forgiveness, to be walked through. 

👆🏼That imo, enables God's perfect design of 'forgiveness' to be useful to the victim, no matter whether the perp is alive, dead or NC for whatever reason.  👆🏼That takes any power away from the perp to negate my desire to seek emotional relief. All my relief comes from my transfer to Christ and absolute zero from my attempting to hold any door open for the perp, or any relief coming from the perp's reaction to me.  I don't need the perp at all to gain emotional relief from the perps harm to me!

Imo, when Christ instructs us to forgive, he's simply inviting us to bring our woes to him, and dump them at his feet (not the perps). How many times should we do this?  Every time...unlimited times... because Christ can handle it. 

Imo, if I try to do Christ's job of holding the repentance door open to the perp, that cheapens Christ's work in the cross.  Therefore I also believe that any ideas of the method and meaning of 'forgiveness' that can simply be nullified by the perp (alive, dead...or NC like the thief on the cross) is a misunderstanding of God's perfect design of 'forgiveness'.

In my wrong 'caretaking' behaviors, I've been trying to hold that door open to twisted-motive perps for far too long. The IDD cycle runs on the fuel of fake repentance and twisted drama 🔺roles.  Im done with that.

SoT

[Mary]

What you are describing sounds alot like Romans 12:19 to me:
Romans 12:19 KJV
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

[SonofThunder]

What you are describing sounds alot like Romans 12:19 to me:
Romans 12:19 KJV
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Hi Mary,

Good find! 😃 I accept that verse with regard to the proper direction which I take my judgement of others for their hurtful actions and also a direction in which I take my hurts that need releasing. That verse directs me regarding pronouncing/delivering judgement to God instead of the perp.  Taking forgiveness to the perp instead is a direct pronouncement of wrongdoing (judging).

Ive surely been wronged by a PD and then verbalized to the PD, my acknowledgement of the hurt they caused me, only for it to be laughed at, my hurt flipped to me being the perp that deserved their harsh action/reaction, but also at the same time, condemning me for offering my 'forgiveness' (judgement) because they deny any wrongdoing. Imo, that makes the hurt even worse as they say to me "SoT, who do you think you are for judging me!!  You deserved it! (followed by word-salad) ".

Therefore, your Romans 12:19 correlation states to take our hurts to God instead and he will deal with the truth and judgement in the matter.  My taking and releasing to God avoids putting the control of rebuttal back into the hands of the PD, which is similar to a JADE.

Therefore, I have not communicated a pardon to the PD; not communicated judgment to the PD, not JADEd to the PD. Instead, I released my woes to God to handle it all.

So far, my own (1) definition, directional flow of my action/reaction of 'forgiveness' has left out the other two components (2 and 3) that belong to the the entire definition/action/reaction of the term 'forgiveness'.

Forgiveness:

1. Directional Release/Judgement: Take my hurts and desire to pronounce wrongdoing and judgement to Gods feet and release to God, not take to the perp.

2. Analysis/Education/Self-Protection:  I will educate myself to understand what occurred, put on the whole Out of the FOG toolbox to protect myself from reoccurrence and since I performed #1, I will have a mindset of 'indifference' toward the past. 

3. I will proactively love (desire what is BEST) the perp and myself, in full #2, because they are a fellow God-created human being, and God is taking care of #1 in full. 

All three of those combined are how I understand and practice the term 'forgiveness'.  I do not go to the perp with anything but #3 (which strongly and silently for my own protection and encouragement, is armed with #1 and #2).  The perp does not get the thrill of knowing how hurt I was by the prior action/reaction, instead witnesses my steel backbone, my thick skin and my full self protection while still being loved (my definition) by me.  Imo, Christ demonstrated this on the cross.

I will continue to practice forgiveness in steps 1-3.  Steps 1 and 2 even apply for my benefit, if the perp is NC or dead. Steps 1-3 are fully in my own self-control (a proper boundary), and forgiveness (as God created) cannot be nullified or thwarted by anyone or any situation.

SoT

[InvisibleDaughter]

I am also a born again Christian. My hubby and I are active members of our Church.
I'm 48 and have dealt with NPD Mother my entire life—I'm exhausted thinking about it.
I also was raped in my 20's.

My Mom acts like a 69yr old toddler throwing tantrums when she doesn't get her way. I couldn't bring myself to visit her on Mother's Day this year. I ended up going the day after. She must have been pissed because a conversation we had today through texts ended with her telling me off.

My reply? Hatred stirs old quarrels, but love overlooks insults Proverbs 10:12

We are called to forgive, that doesn't mean we need to have a relationship with someone who is abusive. I forgive my Mom because God calls me too, not because she's earned it. None of us have earned forgiveness, God gave it freely.

I will pray for my Mom because she thinks that because she got baptized and calls herself a Christian that she's getting into Heaven. I know that God will hold us all accountable according to our deeds.

Scripture disarms my Mom because Narcissists have allowed evil to overtake them. I will continue to pray, but not be a doormat.

[Marianne]

I will continue to pray, but not be a doormat.



I struggled with forgiveness majorly. Other cheek. Honour your parents. Seventy times seven. First look at your own mistakes. The whole thing.

But forgiveness and denial are not the same. My family and other people asked of me a shortcut...skipping right from their abuse to my forgiveness...without passing through relevant stops in between. Such as regret from their side. Their quitting of abuse. Room for my feelings - anger too. Self-defence. Defence of my kid. Taking that shortcut makes genuine forgiveness impossible. It only aroused anger and hatred in me...because the abuse continued. Of my son too. And it corrupted my real personality...into something I do not think God wants me to be.

Now I distanced myself. Stopped minimalizing and started really speaking up to people who can help. Allowed my feelings to be there. And started defending myself - and my kid! - in more adequate ways. I think the bible forbids none of that. Distancing oneself from christians who willfully continue bad behaviour is explicitly recommended. There is no sin in that. In my opinion.

The interesting thing is...now I quit minimalizing both their abuse and my stupid responses...and quit forcing myself to shortcut-forgive...genuine forgiveness is slowly growing. Naturally. Which is radically different from denial. It's rather that I shifted my energy from being angry with them and trying to change them...to building my own life and life for my kid. I pray for them. They are always welcome if they dare choose honesty and self-reflection. My thoughts about them are rather gentle at the moment, without denying the truth. I see what the were coming from. I even see their good sides. But I will not accept any abuse against myself and my kid anymore. As far as that is under my control. And I will not lie to myself or others on their behalf.

I feel...sometimes preachers make the forgiveness story so flat. They say you have to be sweet to everyone. They give an example of being kind to that colleague who makes a bad comment about your dress (yeah, I can do THAT... ). But forgiving continueing abuse is a different story.

I think you need to find out what works for you...in your situation. You need not unnecessarily stay in a harmful situation. I dont think that is the intention of faith. And even Jesus and John the Baptist told some people to come back after they made a change of heart, and a change of life.   

[1footouttadefog]

Interesting to stumble onto this subject at this time.  I was thinking about making g a post to mention an understanding  of forgiveness that has been very helpful to me of late.


When I think about various Scriptures about forgiveness I notice that the idea of debt and indebtedness are correlated.  Loans, payments for and such as that.  When we are forgiven our debt has been paid.   

I applied this to forgiveness in my own life.  When I forgive someone they no longer owe me anything.  I no longer  have expectations of them in that area.  They owe me nothing.

Simplified example.  Someone lies to me.  I forgive them.  If it happens alot I forgive them but in order to do it with a repeat offender, I must quit anticipating the truth from them, if they are to owe me nothing I cannot expect them to tell me the truth.  I cannot put them in a position that requires trust because then they would own me something.  If their debt is cleared I cannot have expectations of them. 

Like when a bank forgives a loan, they dont give another loan to that person, no then send them on their way free, and don't loan them more money. 

We don't have to repeatedly set ourselves up for more abuse in the name of forgiveness.  I think true forgiveness requires that we don't.

You can have forgiveness without reconciliation.  Forgiveness is one sided, recinciliation requires both parties to be involved and to work toward repairing what was broken and is different from forgiveness although likely depends on it.

I can forgive the chronic liar even of they never confess the lying , acknowledge hurting me or admit it was wrong.  I can forgive them even of they make no move toward reconciliation.

Remembering vs forgiving.  We are suppose to forget the debt, not the person, not the truth. 

I agree that the idea of forgiving as taught in many churches is dangerous in combination with abusers. 

[Marianne]

Thanks.

I am happy you brought up that analogy. It helps me. It is a theme I, too struggle with. Some moments I still feel guilty. As though I am doing my dad injustice. By staying away from him. But he did such great harm. And does not want to change.

I can forgive. But I cannot expect good behaviour of im anymore. And continue contact.