Feeling so lost and discouraged...

[Bluebell80]

Thank you to everyone who has read and replied to my prior threads. My uPD husband and I had a few marriage counseling sessions that didn't go in his favor. The therapist called him our for gaslighting me during our intake session. Our few sessions have ended with my husband being the focal point and challenged by the therapist. Husband didn't take it well and it has caused more tension between us because I agree with the therapist. Husband has spoken and tried to discredit our therapist multiple times and when I say I agree it ends with more tension in our marriage. This weeks appointment ended with our therapist, who is also a male, "breaking up" with us. (Or with my uPD H, but by default me also...I wasn't really part of the conversation when the statement was made that therapist couldn't help us, wasn't right for us.)

When I first confronted uPD H about my feelings that he was abusive in an emotional/verbal and sometimes sexually coercive way he was very caught off guard, but apologetic. A couple days later as I began trying to create healthy boundaries that I needed to heal he said some things like "I just don't think I am a monster you make me out to be". I told him I feel like he wished he hadn't apologized and told him it sounded like he had "buyers remorse" and wanted to basically take back acknowledging all those things took place. He continues to not want to work with my boundaries...one of which is wanting some privacy in the bathroom/shower/while getting dressed. He respected this for a day or two, but he is just so vocally hurt by this particular boundary. He says why are we even married then. Another thing is he discovered I changed my lock screen code on my phone and was very hurt and upset by this. He asked me what I'm trying to hide. (Really I just feel a deep need to have my privacy respected. I'm not cheating. I want to be able to listen to my audiobooks without being lectured why am I listening to narcissist books because I'm afraid he would be upset...I'm also afraid he'd learn how to be more covert in his abuse if he knew I listened to things like that. I also want to be able to freely text my support system without worrying that he will see my friends checking in on me.)

After any interaction with him I am reeling wondering am I the abuser? Am I the narcissist?

I can't tell him how I feel without it having a severely negative impact on him. When he's speaking I have started telling him "I feel like you are speaking to me in a very controlling and condescending way" He is loud and sounds angry when we speak. I call them arguements and he says we are just talking. I am in a calm voice and if I ever elevate to make a point he tells me "why are you getting so angry, we are just talking" It is infuriating because I am at about 25% matching his vocal level and I am told to not be angry. Then I'm left explaining why I'm angry...I use the toolkit and try not to try to explain myself into a circular argument, but then I'm accused on not caring. He keeps telling me he can't get any more low or beaten down without taking his own life. He goes from angry to crying and appearing broken. He started our prior to last marriage counseling session in tears saying he didn't feel safe and secure in our marriage. I was in utter shock but didn't say a word and the therapist asked him to explain. He basically explained I'm not managing to meet his needs in regulating his emotions and that is his responsibility, then the therapist (who is a Christian Counselor) Share the gospel with him. Husband just started blankly at him.

How do we know we aren't the abuser?

[square]

My husband has said some of those exact same lines, sigh. "I don't think I'm the monster you make me out to be." "Why are we even married, then?" Ugh.

Those are very loaded statements, with huge layers of entitlement, manipulation, deflection, and on and on.

I have mostly disconnected from that. I examined it all over and over, till I felt I was going crazy. I felt that way because of cognitive dissonance. Then I learned to stop owning his stuff.

He'd give me something that rightly belonged to him, like his discomfort about "feeling bad." He expected me to fix it, but it wasn't mine to fix.

So I gave up. I don't bother telling him what I need from him anymore, I just do what I need and let him deal with it.

You've started with your phone. Good job. You changed your passcode. Now what you do is just let him whine and don't take it on. Don't argue with him about it. Shrug him off. You cannot convince him that you having privacy on your phone is okay so don't waste your effort and get sucked into a battle.

The more seriously you take his complaints, the more power you give them. They are ridiculous. Having privacy on your phone is fine. It's normal. He canmake it into a big deal but you don't have to participate, even in your own head by worrying about it.

Privacy in the bathroom. Apparently he will not honor that. Stop hoping he will. Use the lock on the door. Install one if necessary. I'm sure he will make a huge fuss. You will be blamed for him being late to work or whatever because he cannot possibly be expected to manage his time like another human being. As long as you do not feel in physical danger, you can let it roll off. You can implement this boundary gradually.

In summary:
1) Give up
2) Do what you gotta do
3) Don't pick up the burdens he thrusts on you

[Poison Ivy]

Bluebell80, I don't think you're the abuser.

Your husband sounds similar to my ex-husband, particularly in the following way: My ex is extremely sensitive to any discussions about things that might (paraphasing him) "make him feel bad about himself." I felt stuck between a rock and a hard place. I could not bring up issues (as a result of which, there would be little chance the issues would be resolved) or I could bring up issues (as a result of which, I would "make my husband feel bad about himself," i.e., I would be the "aggressor" or "abuser").

I don't think I was the aggressor or abuser. I don't think my ex was an aggressor or abuser. I do think that his behavior and statements regarding his feelings made it very difficult for us to talk about anything having to do with us or the relationship.

[Bluebell80]

Square-I felt so attacked I immediately gave him the new passcode to unlock my phone and gave permission to look through it. He didn't...so I don't know why he made such a fuss about it. 

Thank you for your response. I must stop taking on responsibility for making him feel okay.

Poison Ivy- thank you

[square]

Poison Ivy, literally last night my husband said those exact words, I was making him feel bad about himself.

Sometimes I feel bad about myself too. I try to fix it or at least resolve to learn from it. I don't blame the person standing there while I am having a feeling. Sheesh.

Bluebell, so you gave him the passcode, that's fine. You could consider changing it again. If it comes up again you could just stick with a mantra like "me having some basic privacy is fine." I like saying that because it doesn't give much for him to fight me on, it's valudating and reassuring to myself, and if my kid is listening it's the message I'd like to impart.

Putting down the burden is a process and it takes time.

By the way, since you posted in Committed to Working On It, I use Medium Chill a lot and find it very helpful. Medium Chill (MC) is for me the perfect balance between detached but somewhat warm. I used to get very very upset with my husband, the things he would say would seem absolutely unacceptable and frankly shocking to me. I could not understand how he could even think that way.

I realized I cannot change him and he has a right to think whatever he thinks. I don't have to stay married, to act upon his thoughts, or even take them seriously, but he has a right to his thoughts just like I do. That helped me to just let it go and focus on me and my own behavior. His behavior is his business.

So now, instead of blowing up, I accept he has whatever insane thought, refuse to take it on, hold my line calmly and minimally, and move on with my day pleasantly. And that is good for both of us, I stay calm, and he calms down quickly as he has learned to trust that I will just be pleasant and calm if he approaches me, whether or not the previous issue is resolved in any way.

There is a cost, though. We are disconnected. I am pleasant but the fact that I bothered to try to explain something or be upset before meant I still had hope, trusted him a little, was still connected. I can't trust him, so ironically I have become a more pleasant person. I dobeverything I can to control what I need (in yoyr case, privacy seems to be a theme) because I know I'm on my own.

It's sad, but more pleasant, I get most of my needs met (thanks to my own efforts), and I like the self discipline.

[Bluebell80]

user-thank you for your response. I don't take it as a criticism at all...its true...I'm doing those things and its driving me crazy.

I was reading an article earlier today and it just clicked. He isn't "making" me do any of these things...I'm choosing to deny my own feelings and say/do things that aren't authentic to just keep the peace...so that HE doesn't respond/feel anything negative.

I'm getting stronger, and I'm so glad this forum exists.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

Bluebell80- I asked my therapist the exact question - am I the narcissist?  am I causing all this?

Bottom line - narcissists don't ask that question.

[SonofThunder]

Bluebell,

You are not the problem.

Ugh, I am so sorry for you. I can relate so deeply to literally every word you wrote. There was a period of time where I stopped reading "symptoms of narcissism" because I was convinced I had it. I've also had all the same arguments with my wife...about privacy, about how hurt she was that I called her abusive, about coercion, apologizing and then taking back apologies, saying she is not safe in the relationship, yelling at me then accusing me of yelling...It's uncanny how similar it all is. My wife still at least once a week will throw some zinger at me about "why do you hide your passcode from me, I'm an open book and you just have all these secrets." I just ignore her now.

You have confirmation from a therapist that he is the problem--that's something I've never had, so take heart in that.

How do you know you're not the narcissist? There are a few things that helped me get past this fear:
1. My therapist asked me, "do you have these issues in any other relationship in your life?" The clear answer is no. My relationship with my wife is the only one that I have these problems with, so it seems clear I don't carry PD behaviors into other relationships.
2. The very fact that you're here writing on this forum is a good indicator you're not a narcissist. Now I'm not saying there aren't narcissist on the forum who aren't aware of it...it's possible. But as a general idea, the very fact you are trying to work on yourself, ask questions, know how you can do better, etc, etc, all point to the fact that you are an introspective, empathetic, self-aware person ... all of which are not traits of a Narcissist.
3. I finally realized that making me feel like I was the one at fault was still one more of her ploys to gain control over me. So I stopped worrying about that so much. Sure I have issues I need to work on, but I am not the cause of the issues in our relationship.

I want to say something to you that might be hard to hear, I hope you don't take it as criticism...take it as words from someone who has been exactly where you are: Read through your original post on this thread, and pay attention to how much of your post (and life) revolves around your husband. Narcissists want to be the center of the universe, they want to control everything, and I'd say he's getting his way by the very fact that you are so concerned about how he responds to you and how he behaves.

For me, the "aha" moment in this Out of the FOG journey was when I stopped caring about uPDw and how she would respond. They call it emotional indifference or psychological "soul distancing"...there are a lot of terms for it. But try and think of some of these situations through the lense that doesn't involve him. For example:

* Whether or not he's upset that you changed your passcode should have no bearing on if you do it
* Whether or not he respects the boundary of the bathroom should have no bearing on if you do it. Do you have a lock on your bathroom door? If not, can you add one? There is no reason you should need his permission for that. He can yell and wail through the door but you don't have to respond to it. Our ability to enforce boundaries should have nothing to do with whether or not they
* You should stop confronting him about your feelings. Honestly I wish I had never called uPDw abusive...it was more than a year ago I did it, and I can't take it back now, but she has used it to manipulate and hurt me in a multitude of ways. You will never ever ever get them to see the light of day, so stop trying to plead your case.
* Stop JADEing. When he accuses you of not caring, just realize that's all part of the game. I have been called a coldhearted, emotionless robot who is "Dead inside." Now instead of letting that get to me, I jokingly send robot 🤖 emojis to my "in the know" friends because I know how absurd her claims are, and I don't have to convince her she's wrong.

Actually that last point is kinda interesting...can you find the humor in some of what is happening? Now don't laugh in front of him, that would not go well, but sometimes I have to go into another room and just laugh at the absurdity of her claims and accusations.

Like Square, I also use Medium Chill. I find it very effective too, but it requires almost super-human fortitude to not get emotionally invested in their nonsense. It is SO HARD. But it is doable.

Bottom-line: You need to take the focus off of him and his reactions and start focusing more on yourself. He's going to do what he's going to do...and you probably won't like it...but you still have a right to establish boundaries and be who you want to be.

To reiterate what Square said:
1) Give up
2) Do what you gotta do
3) Don't pick up the burdens he thrusts on you


You are not the problem.

SoT

[Big Bear]

After any interaction with him I am reeling wondering am I the abuser? Am I the narcissist?

How do we know we aren't the abuser?

Greetings Bluebell80,

I am so sorry to hear about what you have gone through.  This thread contains so many good responses.  I hope it could be encouraging for you.

In response to your questions, I would say that you are not the abuser or the narcissist.

The very fact that you asked those questions illustrates that you are neither of those.  In my experience, I have never heard of a narcissist ask such  introspective, probing questions.  I believe that narcissists have two key deficiencies at the heart of their personality:

1. They lack the ability to experience empathy (outward).

2. They lack the ability to experience introspection (inward).

The very act of asking your questions indicates an ability to experience thoughtful introspection.  Therefore, you are not the narcissist.

Sincerely,
Big Bear

[TurnThePage]

I often asked if I was the one with the issues....Therapist so No! (quite strongly). 

Agree that if you were the one with the problem you wouldn't even be asking that question.


Someone with a PD does Not see themselves as having an issue...it's everyone else.

Stay Strong and Know It is Not You....It Is Him!

[Truthseeker1]

Wow, what a great post. I can relate to ALL OF IT!!! Thank you for the post and the replies.  I have only recently learned about the cause of the strange dynamic in my marriage. I believed my wife's  accusations  and accepted the blame for our problems for sooooo many years. I would constantly strive to improve myself and change my behavior, yet somehow, I was still always to blame for every disagreement.  I tried to disagree with her. I felt so strongly that I was being wronged but in the end I would always come to realize the problem was actually me. I would kick myself for messing things up once again and apologize for my ignorant misbehavior. I was perplexed that my most important relationship was the one that caused me so much trouble. I could manage people at work and my friends with ease. I have been acknowledged by others as likable and easy to work with. I have been given oversight of many departments because of my people skills and ability to motivate while bringing peace. Yet in my marriage I behaved the same way I did at work and with friends yet am heralded as a controlling, selfish, unempathetic narcissist. How I did not see it for so long is really disappointing. I am embarrassed that I did not figure it out sooner. I just made the foolish assumption that she was after the same thing I was. I believed her motives were pure and she was seeking the truth. Even now with so much evidence that I have been manipulated I still can not stop secondguessing myself. What if I am wrong. How much damage would I inflict if I were really the problem and placed the blame on her. That would be hard for me to live with.

[Boat Babe]

BOTH of my uPDbfs accused me of being narcissistic/ sociopathic. Yeah, right.

[Mary]

When I am being blamed/projected against for something absurd, I try to realize that I am being told DH's plans and can act accordingly.