Ideas for boundaries with uNPD sis so I can have relationship with nephew?

[BlairBennet912]

I'm a long-time lurker and have learned so much from all of you. I was hoping you could give me some suggestions of things that have worked for you in similar situations.

My sister is a malicious uNPD, and my mother's sole purpose in life is to enable her. I had a rough Mother's Day with them again this year. I think I would be able to go no contact with both of them after years of emotional abuse, except that my sister just had a baby. He's currently 9 months old, and I want to be in his life.

I'm trying to decide what boundaries I can put in place in my relationship with my mom and my sister to protect my mental health and still be able to see my nephew. They live within driving distance of me, so I am thinking no visits longer than 4-5 hours. And when my nephew is older, seeing if my husband and I can take him for a "day of fun" by ourselves. But I would love other ideas that have worked for all of you. Thanks for the support!

[Starboard Song]

I'm trying to decide what boundaries I can put in place in my relationship with my mom and my sister to protect my mental health and still be able to see my nephew.

I think you are taking a wise approach. I myself am No Contacth with my in-laws for over 7 years, so I am not opposed to NC. But it should be a last resort: we are trying to actually make our lives peaceful and strong, not trying to win a video game. Declaring NC can be satisfying, but brings in a whole new set of challenges that ought to be acknowledged.

First, please do go read our Boundaries page. Remember, boundaries are not about what others may do. Boundaries are what we will or will not do, or engage with. They are an expression of our own morals. The best boundaries can be enforced without a nuclear option. Some people are so hostile that they make boundaries impossible, and it is with those people that we often go NC.

Do they visit too often? Select a cadence you can live with and simply do not make or accept more frequent invitations. You'll need a happy, chirpy way to deliver bad news.

Do they stay too long? Create conditions to end visits in reasonable time. Like, pretend you have a dinner date to get to so you have to leave your house by 5pm. Remember, you can't count on others to enforce your boundaries, and your goal is peace, not compliance.

Do they get toxic on social media? Disconnect. Just send a little white lie that you are disengaging from a lot of social media. If you get busted, just say you prefer to share with relatives IRL rather than online.

Do certain conditions make socializing worse? Arrange visits that don't involve that ball game, or alcohol, or whatever.

Do they get toxic at random in conversation? This is the hard one. It is hard to deal with toxic talker. But it can be done.

I wish you so much strength and good luck.


Be good. Be strong.

[LemonLime]

I have a big list of "rules" for myself in terms of dealing with my NPD sib.   Full disclosure:  I haven't needed to try implementing them yet, as we live in different countries and don't really interact.

However:
1)  I will not sleep under the same roof as her
2) I will not be alone with her at any time, only in a group
3)  I will not consume alcohol when visiting with her
4)  I will not cook in a kitchen with her
5) I will not share chores with her when visiting as a group
6)  I will not stay in a room with her if there is so much as a whiff of her trying to bait me
7)  my children will not spend extended time with her alone

I like how you're thinking.  I might encourage even shorter visits than 4-5 hours if possible.   Shorter visits allow less mischief on their part, IMO.

[Starboard Song]

I have a big list of "rules" for myself in terms of dealing with my NPD sib. 

That's a well-written list of rules. They are self-enforcing. They are clear. They are actionable.

Well done.

[square]

Just wanted to comment that I would be super careful about not revealing any interest in getting nephew alone.

No mentioning "maybe at some point we could take him for a few hours/the day/overnight."

Just wait until it seems possible then suggest you could do X, emphasing the activity and not the "alone" part.

And the right opportunity is when sis needs it. She has a long doc appointment scheduled, a conference, is sick. That's when you say "I could take Sam to the new Pixar and give you a few hours."

[Leonor]

I'd like to offer another point of view to consider.

We go no contact because any contact has proven to be damaging to our wellbeing. It's not so much a last resort as a full standing in our truth of, "I don't deserve to be hurt, and this person consistently hurts me."

Now, the other person is still, in airplane speak, free to move about the cabin. They have the right to live their lives as they see fit. They can get married or divorced. They can move to another continent or right next door. They can get married, and raise children. Our no-contact does not have any impact on their lives, because we have made the decision for ourselves, not to control them.

Once we go no contact, we relinquish any possibility of staying in contact this or that way or for this or that reason. We can shift our boundaries. We can readjust our expectations. But we don't get to say, "Oh I'm no contact except for holidays because I want to feel part of a big family twice a year." That's not a bad thing - in fact, it might be the exactly right and healing boundary for you - it's just not no contact.

Nine month old babies are the most adorable and delightful and scrumptious little beings on the planet! But this is your sister's baby. You are not in your rights to decide to go no contact with her and still have access to her child, and it's manipulative to really want to go no contact with her but fake otherwise so you can play with her Baby. This little baby's primary bond is with his mother, and no matter what failings you may observe in her mothering, unless her behavior crosses into illegal activity punishable by law, you will only inflict more damage by getting all up in a relationship with him while in strife with his mother. He's too little to have a relationship with you independent of her; you, the supermarket cashier, the daycare teacher - you are all the same mildly interesting smiley person to him. His world is Mommy. Let that be. He doesn't need you in his life. Why are you trying to finagle hours long drives to visit him when you are in strife with his whole world?

And if you do decide to somehow pursue a relationship with a nine month old while in strife with his mom, guess who is going to be in hot competition for Baby's attention with you? You betcha! If your mother is a pain in the you-know-what now, just wait a few months when Baby enters toddlerhood and can say "I love you" and give hugs and kisses! You do not want to be in the middle of that crazy, I promise you. That is not going to have a happy ending for you. You are going to feel resentful towards your mother for her scapegoating of you back then, jealous of your sister for getting all the admiration now, or left out because Baby doesn't have enough brain development to have long term memory and will shy away from you. How is any of that nurturing for Baby?

And if you tell yourself that you want to be present as a "good influence" for Baby, check that. You live too far away, for one thing. And when you are present, you will be offering yourself up for abuse by his mother and grandmother in his presence. You will be interfering in his relationship with his mother. You will be adding to the crockpot of crazy that is the dysfunctional dynamic among trauma bonded women when a baby comes into the family. And you will be furiously constructing and maintaining complicated boundaries so as to not trigger your own past traumas while playing with blocks and teddy bear tea parties. That is not helpful.

I know we all have a fantasy of, "Why didn't Auntie B say something? Or, Why didn't Cousin J step in? Then I would have been saved!" It's a fantasy. It's the fantasy that things could have been different if only, if only, and then we carry that into our adult lives: "Now, I can be that Auntie B or Cousin J! I can save my niece or godson or whoever!" And the truth is, we can't. We can't hold vigil over other people's children and wait for our disordered sibling to mess up so horribly we can call protective services and then feel like "Finally, someone did something." That's not about our niece or godson. That's about us, about our trauma and our wish to be saved.

There is grief in no contact. There is loss. There is a void where family celebrations and histories and shared memories and joyful beginnings used to be. Those celebrations were probably uncomfortable and empty, the memories are usually repressed traumas, and the joyful beginnings were more dashed hoped and false promises, but there is loss. It may be that Baby is a loss for you. And I truly am sorry for your loss.

[InvisibleDaughter]

My Mom is NPD, your nephew has a very hard life ahead of him, but you know that!

My sister in law is also NPD, I have 1 niece and 1 nephew. My hubby has a daughter from a previous relationship. I tried my best to integrate into his family for years. His sister would talk trash about her Mom the minute she left a gathering, she did it with everyone.

My sister in law ended up turning my stepdaughter against both my husband and myself.

I know you think you will be a breathe of fresh air, but depending how bad your sisters NPD is you may not have any say, that is the sad reality.

I was always a loving aunt, but was never accepted. I've moved past the hurt.

If you want to be part of your nephews life you will have to endure your sisters wrath to some extent.

My stepdaughter had a child. I chose to not be part of his life when he was about 6. I couldn't take my husband's family anymore. I'm sure they've filled his head with lies about me. I've chosen my mental health over the drama. Having a NPD Mom was bad enough, I had no idea I married into another level of a nightmare.

Whatever you chose just know your sister and Mom won't change.
It's ok to put your sanity first

[Starboard Song]

So much good advice in this thread.

I hope you are able to define and maintain healthy boundaries, minimize the drama from your sister and mom, and maintain a relationship that is a net good. And others are right: whenever that cannot be done it is always OK to fully stand in your truth, and move on.

I wish you the very best on this effort, and I wish you success. Truly, success may not be smiley-face success. But it can be peace.

Be good. Be strong.

[BlairBennet912]

Thank you all so much for your input, you have given me a lot to think about. Leonor is right that I was wanting to be the savior for my nephew that I wish I had, and I need to let go of that. I will certainly be here for him if he ever needs me, but I can't spend the next 20+ years of my life hovering around the margins of his life just in case. I am beginning to realize he is another thing I am going to have to let go of and grieve, and I'm so very tired of grieving. But I appreciate the words of advice and support from all of you who have been through similar situations. My therapist keeps telling me that I should just discuss how I feel with them...I don't think she has worked with NPD families before.

[moglow]

Fwiw, it always helped me that one of my aunts reached out (she didn't live local so I didn't see her near enough, but she tried). One of the uncles made a point to reach out to my brothers. Mother resented and tried to interfere, but it still helped us that they tried and knowing they cared.

[Big Bear]

I am beginning to realize he is another thing I am going to have to let go of and grieve, and I'm so very tired of grieving. But I appreciate the words of advice and support from all of you who have been through similar situations.

Dear BlairBennet912,

I know how hard it can be to let go of a family member.  It is often necessary to grieve the loss.  I am VLC with my narcissist sister.  I haven't seen her in person for over five years.  It has been over a year and a half since I had any direct contact with her.  Possibly the hardest part of this is that I have very little contact with my nephews.  I would like to be more of an influence in their lives, but I accept the reality of my situation.  This is something that I have had to grieve.  It is a loss, and it can be difficult at times.  I have had to mourn this loss.  I still send my sister and her family a Christmas letter once a year to maintain some sort of connection.  I hope that my nephews would see that the door is always open and possibly reach out when they are older. 

Perhaps when they are older, they might realize that I have left the door open and reach out.  Perhaps not.  Either way, I am here for them and willing to do what I can when the time is right.  I may have stepped away for this season of their lives, but I still remember them and will continue to keep the door open.

I hope all the best for you on your journey.

Sincerely,
Big Bear