Feel Painted Into a Corner: uCNPD MIL Manipulating H Again

[Phoenix18]

TL;DR: uCNPDMIL has been pushing our buttons for too many years. I Went VLC a couple years ago and am okay with that; H went NC last fall for a few months, then somehow got guilted back in by the flying monkeys. A few days after a recent conversation with her, he "casually" asked me if I've thought about taking a trip to the area where both our FOOs live, to see them before they expire. I said no, I've been through all that twice already with my parents and don't feel a need to see MIL. I said if he wants to see her I'm not going to stand in his way, but I really don't want to spend $ and time to go there. He said he doesn't know what to do because he doesn't want her to come here. On his last call with her, I overheard him saying we're working on it and he'll let her know when we figure it out. Now I'm feeling betrayed, but I haven't said anything yet. How should I handle this?

Longer Version / Background Info - in case anybody has more insight on it:
In H's FOO he is the scapegoat. We put up with all the classic CNPD MIL tricks- triangulation, boundary trampling, grandchild grooming, meddling in our marriage, competing with her kids, control-seeking manipulations, weird gifts, drama over holidays, you name it, for over 30 years. Well, I put up with it while he worked, went to school, played video games and otherwise avoided it as much as he could. He knew how she operated, but he made excuses for her and placated her by telling her what she wanted to hear. Even when she criticized him, infantilized him, interfered at his job, made his much younger brother (GC) the executor of her estate saying "he handles money better", you know, all the standard demeaning stuff.

I was entirely too much of a pushover and let her walk all over me. Example: I was once coerced into driving to a different city several hours away for the weekend, while sick with the flu, with our 3 kids in tow, to attend her ordination ceremony (which she attained so as not to let her younger son outshine her when he got ordained), which H could not attend as he had to work. She was hopping mad about that, and took her anger out on all of us when I said I was too sick to go without H. But No was not an option. We HAD to be there. This was, in her mind and words, such a "hugely important event for her grandchildren to witness so they can look back on it in later years and reflect on it, yadda yadda ad nauseum". I went to keep the peace. We had to leave Sunday morning to be back in time for the funeral of one of our kids' friends, and she was VERY unhappy that we'd miss the big service where she would be honored the morning after the ceremony. I was still feeling nauseous on the drive home. Worst weekend of my life. That was about 18 years ago and I'm still looking back and reflecting on it; but not in the way she thinks.

Anyway, about 10 years ago we moved far away, and our kids are now grown. Fast Forward - 2 years ago my kids and their SO's all took me brunch for mother's day, and we were having a lovely time visiting. Both my mom and mil texted me "Happy Mother's Day", so I replied in kind to both. A while later I received a text from mil, with a forwarded copy of my text to her as part of a text chain where she and another unknown person were bashing me, saying "she didn't get me a gift for mother's day or Easter either" "How disrespectful" "I guess I just have to take it" etc. She had mistakenly sent her conversation with a flying monkey to me! Of course I was hurt, angry, and it ruined my time with my own kids - aren't they good at that?!

I went home and showed H. He actually got quite angry at her on my behalf, when confronted with her hatefulness in writing. He said, "Why does she think it's your responsibility to get her a mother's day gift? She's my mother. And since when do we get anybody Easter presents? How ridiculous!" A little while later I got another text from her, saying, "Forgive me. That text was meant for someone else. The Lord convicted me". My kids said, "No he didn't - she just got caught". They're all on to her. I decided I didn't want to even bother trying to hash it out with her, based on past history trying to do that, and H said he didn't blame me. So I didn't reply to her. I also didn't reply a few weeks later when she sent me a long rambling letter full of bible verses meant to make me feel guilty and explain how confused she is that I won't talk to her... A few weeks later a birthday card with a check. I didn't cash it. She continued texting me - still does - lots of long rambling morality tales and bible quotes. I just ignore them. If she sends me a "Happy Thanksgiving" or some such, I reply in kind and that's it. I decided if she behaves rationally I will acknowledge briefly in a grey-rock manner, but otherwise I ignore her. It has been like this for 2 years now and I'm fine with it.

Last fall mil had a huge meltdown at H, when he said he couldn't get off work to fly over and attend her 80th birthday party. She yelled at him, told him he'd live to regret it; just pulled out all the stops. When he finally told him he should quit his job to come to her party, he hung up on her. He didn't talk to her for about 4 months. Then the flying monkeys got to him, "She's just a lonely old woman", etc. so he started replying to her texts again, tersely. Then somehow he got guilted because he found out she lied to the monkeys, saying he still wasn't speaking to her. That should have been the final straw, but surprisingly, instead he felt the need to prove he was speaking to her so he started calling once a week, then calling his brother, cousin, whoever to prove he called her. Not sure why he felt the need to exonerate himself to these people. But whatever, it's his business - he can deal with her.

She periodically asks him why I won't talk to her, says I'm unforgiving, etc. He tells her, "No, I've never experienced her being an unforgiving person." or "She's hurt and everyone heals at their own rate", or "You can't force people to forgive before they're ready", and things like that. But it doesn't stop her from going on and on about who wronged she was.

I've explained to him that the Mother's Day Debacle is not the only event she needs forgiveness for. It was just the straw. I'm working through 40 years of stuff, and that is going to take time. Besides, she never even asked for forgiveness; she demanded it, and with no apology! The way I understand forgiveness is that it's for the forgiver, not the forgivee, and she doesn't even need to know when or if I have done it. I don't feel I owe her a forced faux apology on her time-frame. And even when I do truly forgive her, I won't have amnesia, and I don't have to keep subjecting myself to more abuse. He says he totally understands, and I believe him (even though he has a diagnosed PD - Histrionic, we've done a lot of therapy on it, and he does have a good amount of empathy for others, and a lot of anger at his mother).

But now we come to this month, and she's manipulating him again to come see her. When he brought up the topic with me, I said I really don't want to spend $ on a flight to a place I have no desire to go, just to see people I don't want to see. I offered that she could come here, thinking we'd be at an advantage in our own home vs. being a guest in hers, but he (rightly) stated that she would find too much wrong with our life and our kids' lives if she came here. As though any of what they do is truly within our control. We are "black-sheep", terrible parents, she definitely does not approve, and feels it's her duty to instruct us in how we should be living our lives and how our kids should be living theirs.

So, long story short - her coming here is a no-go. I have no intention of going there. I guess I should just tell H if he wants to see her he can go whenever he wants. I've been thinking about that, but tbh I'm a little afraid it will cause him to think I'm being the difficult one. I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to go either, but he'd love to use me as an excuse if he can. And master manipulator that she is, I think it's a fairly no-win situation - bound to cause trouble no matter what I / we do.

So, now I'm angry again. I'm angry at all the time this woman has stolen from me over the years. All the peace she has stolen. Angry she is still doing it from thousands of miles away. Angry that I went along with it. How stupid could I be? Angry that she's trying to paint me as the villain after all she's done. Angry that she damaged her son so badly. Angry at him for not having my back. Angry she damaged our kids so badly. Just don't want to see her or talk to her anytime soon.

So long story long, I just feel stuck in a corner and not sure how to get out right now. Any thoughts or suggestions you might offer would be welcome!

[notrightinthehead]

Hang on to that anger for now . It helps you to fight the manipulation and coercion techniques applied on you. Stick to your decision. You don't even need to discuss it anymore. Your mind is made up.
Remember: No is a full sentence.

As for what she thinks, your husband thinks, anybody thinks, you have no control over that. Even if you bend yourself into a pretzel people will still think what they want to think about you. Remind yourself that it's a futile exercise when your mind goes there.

It's totally ok to not forgive. You might do it eventually, or not. The important work is, to not allow yourself to be abused in the present. To find peace and acceptance within yourself. To be kind and compassionate with yourself. And to spend time with someone so toxic would be none of those things.

[Hilltop]

Whatever is happening between your husband and his mother it's their business. As you say, if he wants that contact with her he can deal with it. Probably better not to be dragged in to their drama. It sounds like you have handled things on your end really well.  You put boundaries in place which work for you.

As for seeing her now it sounds like your answer is no and that is perfectly ok.  Your husband is free to go see her on his own.  I wouldn't worry about being painted as the villain.  Think about it this way, when you were seeing her and talking to her more, there were texts messages sent to you already painting you as the villain so it sounds like it doesn't matter if you see her or not, she will paint you as the villain, so in that case why not do what you want to do and what is best for you.

It doesn't matter if she is upset you don't visit her anymore.  She hasn't apologised and what she is probably more upset over is losing her supply.  If she sees you or talks to you that gives her things to gossip over etc.  If you are absent there is nothing.

I remember when I first limited contact with my MIL.  I was really angry and it took time and distance and NC to really heal.  Forgiveness is not so much for them, I see it as clearing it from your own heart so it's not poison to you.  It doesn't mean forgetting and it doesn't mean people are able to be close to you again if you don't want that, it just means not holding onto it in your own heart.

You are not stuck, in fact freedom is just around the corner.  Just because your husband and MIL are demanding you visit doesn't make you stuck. You can say no.  No.  Just no.  You do not need to see her again if you don't want to.  Your husband is free to visit her.  When you realise you can move on with your life with your MIL severely limited in contact with you, well there is freedom in that. She can jump up and down as much as she likes but it isn't your problem.  The truth is if she had of been nice to you, you would be visiting.  She was hurtful and cruel and it is completely normal to protect yourself from people like that.  If you husband is stuck in enabling her about this issue again this is between them. Leave the drama to swirl around them whilst you move on.  Work on your own healing, feel that anger, that is the first step toward you healing.

[bloomie]

So, long story short - her coming here is a no-go. I have no intention of going there. I guess I should just tell H if he wants to see her he can go whenever he wants. I've been thinking about that, but tbh I'm a little afraid it will cause him to think I'm being the difficult one. I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to go either, but he'd love to use me as an excuse if he can. And master manipulator that she is, I think it's a fairly no-win situation - bound to cause trouble no matter what I / we do.

So, now I'm angry again. I'm angry at all the time this woman has stolen from me over the years. All the peace she has stolen. Angry she is still doing it from thousands of miles away. Angry that I went along with it. How stupid could I be? Angry that she's trying to paint me as the villain after all she's done. Angry that she damaged her son so badly. Angry at him for not having my back. Angry she damaged our kids so badly. Just don't want to see her or talk to her anytime soon.

So long story long, I just feel stuck in a corner and not sure how to get out right now. Any thoughts or suggestions you might offer would be welcome!

Hi Phoenix18 - Hoo Boy! There are decades of pain, confusion, invalidation, frustration and fatigue in your post! My heart hurts just imagining all you describe having experienced at the hands of your mil and DH's hot/cold, back and forth with her.

Here's the thing... you have all the choices. You have all the power. You have full and total control over you.

Your mil only has the power over you that you give her. She does not have the power to steal your peace or rob your joy. You cannot 'thought police' your mil, DH, adult children, the neighbor or anyone else. I mean this gently, but saying 'yes' to something because you believe it will finally result in your mil thinking and speaking respectfully of you, or make peace is folly and, dare I say, unwittingly manipulative.

Phoenix18 there is discomfort in saying 'no'. There is a space between 'enough' 'no' 'I decline' 'that won't work for me' where others react that is uncomfortable. One of the hardest parts of setting boundaries and sticking to them for me is getting comfortable in that space.

Being misunderstood or having my character maligned hurts, but showing up to be emotionally abused, exploited and mistreated hurts more.

As for your DH... go to him, wrap your arms around him and let him know you love him, are for him, but that you are not able to travel with him. It is too painful for you. And if you need him not to go... tell him that. If the thought of him going stirs up this much pain for you why would you not tell him that?

And if he doesn't go and says to his mother that her treatment of you makes it impossible for you to come and he doesn't want to visit without you... well, isn't that the truth? My DH can tolerate so much more in person than I can with the in laws. I don't expect that I can handle what he can. I simply cannot.

If from that you are labeled 'the problem' and coming between he and his mom... well, I have learned to wear that badge proudly. I am a problem to them and I do have the position in my DH's life to come before my mil, in law family and for my well being to be considered over theirs. I am his wife. The center of his life and the mother of his children.


As one of our hero members Starboard songs says: "Don't let people who do not love you come between you." 

[Cat of the Canals]

On his last call with her, I overheard him saying we're working on it and he'll let her know when we figure it out. Now I'm feeling betrayed, but I haven't said anything yet. How should I handle this?

I would take this with a grain of salt, personally. Would it be better/preferable and more mature/assertive for him to just tell her no outright without the waffling? Of course. Sometimes we aren't ready, and it takes some false starts before we get there. And sometimes it can even be to our benefit to use some finesse and even to intentionally kick the can a little further down the road. I'll give you an example from my own life with a PDMIL...

A few years ago, I needed surgery. MIL invited herself (yeah). Insisted on coming even after my husband told her, "That's OK. We don't need you to be there." He let it go for the few weeks leading up to the surgery, even though he was dead set on her not coming. That made me a little nervous, because wouldn't it obviously be better to just tell her flat out: no? He waited until literally the night before, and then he called her and said, "Please don't come."

This was before I was completely Out of the FOG, and I have since looked back and realized that my husband knew exactly what he was doing. Because what I've noticed since then is that when MIL is told "no," she doesn't accept it. She badgers, cajoles, lies, manipulates, guilts, etc. That's what we would have been in for during the weeks leading up to my surgery (which were stressful enough as it was) if he had tried to give her a more forceful "no" in advance. He knew, I think subconsciously, that there'd be far less nagging if he waited until just before to tell her not to come. It also gave her no opportunity to scheme. Because there's a decent chance, if she'd had notice, that she would have decided we were just wrong to deny her this entertainment and simply shown up anyway (100% her style). But I believe the shock of being told right at the last minute, "Don't come," set her off-kilter just enough that it probably didn't occur to her until it was too late.

Also, what bloomie said, about wearing the badge of "the problem"? YES. I have flat out told my husband that he is free to use me as an excuse to tell his mom no. Carte effing blanche. I am so far beyond giving a crap what that woman thinks of me. If she wants to blame me for everything wrong with her relationship with her son, then so be it. 

[Poison Ivy]

"I have flat out told my husband that he is free to use me as an excuse to tell his mom no."

My ex would tell ME that he was annoyed with his father's nearly endless demands and claims to priority but he wouldn't tell his father that I or our children were more important. This was among the death kisses to our marriage.

[Phoenix18]

I really appreciate all these insightful replies!

Notright: This was such a revelation! "Hang on to that anger for now. It helps you to fight the manipulation and coercion techniques applied on you". That's a new way of looking at it for me, and it's amazingly validating and freeing. I've been conditioned that anger is wrong and I should let go of it immediately. But then I just fall right back into making excuses for people and their manipulations. Do you know that many years ago MIL actually convinced me to take an anger management seminar?! How ironic, when she has been the cause of so much of my anger. But somehow I always thought it was my fault. And of course she wanted me to keep on thinking that.

It's so weird when you start looking back at events in your life through this new lense, and seeing things as they really were!

Hilltop, yes you're right: she was criticizing me even when I was trying to do everything she wanted. I guess it's one thing to know intellectually that you can never please these people, but quite another to internalize that knowledge and quit trying. I guess I did quit giving effort, but still I'm somehow reverting to wanting to be liked. I think I need to face that and figure out how to get over it.

And Bloomie, you said essentially the same message but in another way: "saying 'yes' to something because you believe it will finally result in your mil thinking and speaking respectfully of you, or make peace is folly", and you are so right! I need to keep reminding myself of that over and over until it sinks in. And thank you for the compassionate advice about handling DH - it helps a lot not to be stirred up at him. When I think about it, I realize that I've had trouble both seeing what she is and maintaining boundaries with her, and I wasn't even raised by her; he was groomed from birth for the purpose of being her supply; I can't reasonably hold him to a higher standard than myself.

[Phoenix18]

Cat I LOVE this: "Carte effing blanche." Made me literally laugh out loud! And put a great perspective on things! The more I think about it, that's a really good way of being a more united front, rather than at odds with each other, which is just what she wants. By taking this attitude, you're not playing into her hands.

I recently read something not related to this subject at all, but this author was talking about being accused by the media of certain things that sounded derogatory and weren't really true, and she decided to just own them and declare, "Yes I'm (whatever - selfish for example), and put a positive spin on them, so, "Yes, I take good care of myself!" And she discovered that suddenly she didn't care what the media thought anymore; they had no more control over her.

[Tribe16]

Being misunderstood or having my character maligned hurts, but showing up to be emotionally abused, exploited and mistreated hurts more.

Bloomie, this needs to be made into a bumper sticker, an embroidered wall hanging or a tattoo! Just sayin'. Brilliant.

[Cat of the Canals]

I recently read something not related to this subject at all, but this author was talking about being accused by the media of certain things that sounded derogatory and weren't really true, and she decided to just own them and declare, "Yes I'm (whatever - selfish for example), and put a positive spin on them, so, "Yes, I take good care of myself!" And she discovered that suddenly she didn't care what the media thought anymore; they had no more control over her.

There's a running joke on the Parents board about how we're all embracing our roles as the "terrible daughters/sons" our parents always accused us of being. Well, it's not even really a joke because it's true. Not capitulating to a guilt trip makes me a bad daughter? OK, guess that's what I am, then!   

[Hilltop]

Being misunderstood or having my character maligned hurts, but showing up to be emotionally abused, exploited and mistreated hurts more.

Bloomie, this needs to be made into a bumper sticker, an embroidered wall hanging or a tattoo! Just sayin'. Brilliant.

Yep this is brilliant.  I think when we show up again and again and again to see people who are hurting us and mistreating us it hurts so much more as it's us, it's ourselves who are letting us down.  We are not protecting ourselves and on a deep level that is one of the most hurtful things of all.

When I stopped expecting others to change their behaviour or stand up for me and I simply stood up for myself and changed my own behaviour such as not seeing those abusive people any more, it honestly  felt very empowering.  To finally say I am only going to spend my time around those who are respectful toward me felt really good.  I mean work situations are different but our personal time is ours to do with as we please and I am no longer willing to share that time with people who abuse it.

Cat of the canals - love it.  This is something I recently thought as well.  My mother tells me I am difficult and in the past I would take it in and it would damage my self worth but lately I'm like whatever, think of me however you like, if standing up for myself is difficult, I am a proud difficult person and I stand tall with my difficultness.