Newbie

[Truthseeker1]

Hi, I am so glad to have found this forum.  I hope to find some validation of my thoughts and feelings. I have a long complicated story but it's after midnight and I have to work in the morning so here it is in a nut shell. I have recently learned my wife has a PD. I had believed for over 30 years that I was the problem. Not saying I didn't bring my baggage to the marriage but now that I am seeing more clearly it seems mine was a carryon and hers was a shipping container. I really do mean well and I stand for the truth. I am willing to admit when I go wrong. I am quick to apologize. I am committed to walking in truth and being a good person. No matter how hard I tried however, I just could not seem to get things right. I grew up in a dysfunctional family and was seriously lacking in my emotional IQ. I met a woman who seemed to understand it all. I have always been hungry for understanding and she consistently showed me things from a new perspective. I enjoyed learning new things even if it meant I had to own my dysfunctional behaviors. I didn't mind being wrong because I was not malicious and I truly meant for the best.  So I was quick to see my part in every problem and quick to learn and move on. I would sincerely apologize and commit to move forward with my new bit of understanding.  I guess I was pretty dysfunctional so took awhile to work out my flaws. I developed a trust in her opinion. I believed she always knew better and when I thought she was wrong it was just because I was still lacking in some crucial bit of understanding.  Dating led to marriage which eventually led to a family. We did our best but the same dynamic was observed with the kids. I still gave her the benefit of the doubt and sided with her in dealing with the kids. After all, my parents were virtually absent in my childhood so I again did not feel I had any expertise. After many years and much growing I started to struggle with some things. I remember making the statement that I can't believe after ten years of disagreements that I have never been right. Not even one time. That comment was over 20 years ago and I am sad to say I still am never right.  Even when I have irrefutable proof, I receive no concession. I knew something  was wrong but did not really understand what. Seemed like everybody in the world was messed up to her. Long term friends were so hard to keep.  We even went to counseling for marriage issues but I would leave with my head spinning wondering why we never seemed to make any progress. She is so convincing that she could manipulate the therapist.  Eventually I saw a therapist on my own who recommended a book. I read stop walking on eggshells in one weekend. It felt so amazing to finally understand. I was not alone and I was not crazy.  I discovered that a he has boarderline personality disorder with narcissistic traits. The prognosis was not good but understanding helped me to cope. 
She also has a bachelors in marketing and a masters in psychology. She is incredibly intelligent and high functioning. That's how she was able to manipulate seemingly everyone around her including the counselor. She had me so confused for so long.  Now I can see the tactics. I assumed she was like me.  I assumed she was really all about the truth and wanted to get to the bottom of things to move forward in a healthy way. That assumption caused me to remain blinded to the manipulation that is now obvious. The kids are grown and out of the house. So now it is just the two of us. 
I have learned some coping skills but I am really grieving the loss of my dream. I did not marry the person I thought I did. She is verbally abusive and controlling in her covert way. 
I am just so sad. I know with God all things are possible so I hold onto that while I try to let go of my dream of growing old with my other half. We are still married. She does not respect boundaries so I am really uncomfortable. But mostly sad.

[bloomie]

Truthseeker1 - hello and welcome! I am thankful you have found this compassionate and caring community to work out these truths you are uncovering in your marriage alongside.

I am very sorry for the heartbreak and loss of a dream you are experiencing. Grief work is an important part of this journey, I have found.

The prognosis was not good but understanding helped me to cope.

Having a better grasp of what is driving the lack of harmony and unity in our relationships, accepting what we cannot change, does help us to develop further insights, tools, and coping. Seeing such similar scenarios in the lives of others like we do here at Out of the FOG, has also been a tremendous help and source of strength for me as well.

As you settle in, there are great resources and a toolbox at the drop down menus above. Good recommendations for books and other online resources as well as great conversations taking place all over the forum boards. Make good use of all the community has to offer and keep coming back and sharing. It helps to lighten a heavy load!

Again, we welcome you!

[IsleOfSong]

Welcome, Truthseeker. Sorry that your circumstances have led you here, but you are in the right place for sure.

Just curious, was your wife diagnosed as BPD, or is that just a best guess on your part?

Also, are you planning on staying with your wife now that the kids are out of the house?

[SonofThunder]

Hello Truthseeker1,

Another warm welcome to Out of the FOG ☺️.  Another multi-decade husband of a PDwife here. You are definitely not alone in your experiences!

All of the wonderful people in this worldwide community are camrades, hiking the same trails together, scattered at different locations along the journey. I am joyed to have you with us as a fellow traveler!

I like to think of the various forum boards as friendly campfire-sites along the trails.  We always leave a few empty chairs open, so I want to personally invite you to adventure into the camps, find a chair, put your feet up to warm them around the fire and jump right into the discussions. 

I consider my base camp to be the Toolbox tab at the top of every page. I have my permanent tent staked there, as the teaching is so very important, no matter what kind of PD one has in their life. There is an open tent space next to mine and I will save it for you, so head on up to the Toolbox tab and start making yourself at home. 

Also, based on your introspective writing, I also want to recommend you read 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist' by Fjelstad.  Lol, you may think the author has been taking up residence in a spare bedroom of your home, as she will seem to describe what goes on in your private relationship with a PD.  Fjelstad's teaching is spot-on and she also may teach you many things about yourself, which in my opinion (imo) is more important than understanding the PD person. 

Lastly, for futher validation, take a look at the linked video series below, by the acclaimed Dr. Ramani. I believe you will find much comfort in her superior knowledge.  Cheers to you and see you around the forum boards!

SoT

Dr. Ramani: Glossary of Narcissistic Relationships
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3QtnfcMTMhEfRXN-Kk2vndn89nBZxKUj

[LemonLime]

Welcome!  I second SOT's book recommendation.  Best book I ever read on the topic.

I have an extremely charismatic sib who majored in....wait for it...Psychology!   Yep.  So she whips out lots and lots of psych terms, accusing others of "triangulating and projecting and being entitled" and so-on.   She's well-written and extremely intelligent and functional.  She's 95% fun and 5% awful.  It is bone-chilling and horrible to me what she is capable of saying to me and to others.

I'm am empath and apparently had very poor self-esteem and was enmeshed with her until a few years ago when I finally had it after one of her rages.  It's been awful as she refuses to ever ever ever be in the wrong or have anything to apologize for.

We were raised actually in a good environment although sans emotions coaching.  This, apparently with some genetic predisposition, was enough to cause sib to have narc tendencies.

Hardest thing for me at the moment is to know how adored she is by extended family who don't "get it" and don't understand why we are VLC.   I've overheard my mom explaining to my aunt that "the girls have had a disagreement and it would be great if they would get therapy together because this is so sad".   Well I initially DID invite her to get therapy with me and she blew it off.   Nowadays I understand that I would never get therapy with her because she is hopeless and she would use it against me.  It pains me that others see this as a petty disagreement when really it's that sib has a mental illness and LemonLime has had to put up boundaries against that illness.  That's the true story, but sib apparently will be protected forever.  I have learned that talking about "my" side of the story only makes people look at me funny and has a strange way of boomeranging back as though I'm the bad guy.  So only a few trusted people get to hear what I have to say, one of them being my T.

I'm doing EMDR now and would highly recommend.  I think it is a grossly underutilized tool to help us recover much quicker than years and years of talk therapy.  Not dissing talk therapy, mind you, but I've had a lot of good talk therapy and bad talk therapy, and I think it just is too hit-or-miss for me.  EMDR has helped change my BODY.

This is very very hard stuff.  We're here with you.  We GET IT.  Please post more as you go.

[Truthseeker1]

Thank you thank you thank you for again validating me.  I can so relate to your story.  I have a friend who just divorced a borderline narcissist and he is the only person prior to this forum who I felt ever understood me. Thank you again for just understanding and helping me to not feel insane.  Thank you for understanding that concept.  I am just so grateful to have found you all. How have you found other people you could talk to in person that truly understand? I love my therapist but I am not sure he can fully understand. I don't think anyone really can unless they have lived it. I feel a little bit guilty for feeling so happy others can relate to my horrible experiences. Is it fair to call it abuse? I feel like I have been manipulated and lied to. I have been coerced into believing things that were flat out untrue. I was convinced of things that actually really hurt me and undermined me. Is that abuse?

[SonofThunder]

I feel a little bit guilty for feeling so happy others can relate to my horrible experiences. Is it fair to call it abuse? I feel like I have been manipulated and lied to. I have been coerced into believing things that were flat out untrue. I was convinced of things that actually really hurt me and undermined me. Is that abuse?

I would define the similar experiences that you are now happy to find with others here on Out of the FOG are 'emotional abuse'.  Yes, its abuse.  There are many reputable organizations who are filled with professionals who classify these experiences as abuse.  Link below to a Psychology Today article just as one example of many. 

Also below is a link to the Top 100  Traits found in the Personality Disorders tab at the top of every page.  I recommend you take the time to look through the top 100 and in a private journal, start making a list of the traits that you experience with your PD person.  Each of traits listed is clickable for more details to aid in understanding. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/emotional-abuse

https://outofthefog.website/traits

SoT

[LemonLime]

Truthseeker, in answer to your question, the only people I have found that TRULY understand are people who have been through abuse by a PD person themselves.   Yes, there are well-meaning friends who love me and will listen to me, but they at some point get a look on their face (?bewilderment) that tells me they don't really get it.  And the advice they give me tells me they don't really get it. And yes, they begin to get bored with my story, and I can't blame them.  They have no real interest other than they love me.  But they cannot relate.

I have relatives who love me too. But they are dangerous to talk to, because they also know my sib and they LIKE HER.  So they could easily choose sides and I'm afraid they'll choose her, or at least some of them will.  It's irrational in some ways, but I'm not willing to risk it.  Because I truly love my relatives, and I'm too wise now to think that they can understand (they've never been PD-abused as far as I know).

My hubby is wonderful and has watched this all unfold, step by step.  He never liked my sib much, as he found her hypocritical. He has a good BS-detector.  At the time hubby and I met, I was still under sib's "spell" and hubby simply waited and watched while things unraveled with me and sib.  He never said "I told you so" but I believe he knew something was rotten in Denmark.  But even with him, his patience with the topic is limited.  I understand.

I have one friend who used to married to an N, and she GETS IT.  Now that I also "get it" she tells me that she always felt I was "under a spell" in terms of my sib and that even though she only met my sib once, she felt sib had a very negative energy and that there was a negative energy between us.  She didn't tell me that at the time because I was still enmeshed with sib and couldn't see the dysfunction.  But now that I'm Out of the FOG, we talk all the time about N traits and how similar her ex-hubby and my sib are.  She has been a rock for me, and has been quite directive and helpful.  For instance "Lemon Lime, don't even think of allowing your tween child to go to visit Nsib for extended periods of time without you.  That child will be brainwashed against you". 

Therapists who have not personally experienced PDs have NOT been helpful for me.  In fact, they have been harmful in some cases because they are invalidating of what I experienced.  They have told me that what I've experienced in not abuse, that all sibs fight, that I must have triggered her and that I need to learn to stop doing that.  Yikes.

My T now told me right off (because I asked) that she was raised by a Nmom and that she was married for 20 years to a Narc.  She GETS IT.  And she does EMDR with me, and also will be doing Voice Dialog.

Yes, indeed it can be very very lonely at times.  But of course this forum is so wonderful and validating and I visit it almost every day.  Truly insightful wise people here who GET IT.  I would advise you to be quite careful outside the forum of who you share with.  People do not understand and we don't want to alienate those who love us.  IMO the best thing for me has been to rely on the forum, find a trauma-informed therapist that has personal experience with PDs (easier said than done in my case) and maybe share with a friend who is also PD-abused.  But I try to be mindful to keep any friend relationships balanced with lightness and joy and other topics.  It's easy to just settle into the fascinating and morbid world of talking about PDs but I want to keep my friendships healthy.

And then of course read, read, read.  I also always recommend "Codependency for Dummies" by Darlene Lancer because it forced me to look at MYSELF instead of my PD. 

[Truthseeker1]

Thank you for your extremely insightful post and thank you again for understanding and validating me. 
It is so frustrating to have friends who I can discuss much with but nothing about my relationship. With my head in the fog I did discuss a few things in the past and received some really good advice (that is if you are not involved with narcissist or bpd). Being vulnerable and humble are traits that go a long way in my regular relationships but with my spouse they seem to always backfire. If not in the moment then later on my comments will be weaponized. So I live in a high walled stone castle to protect myself. I long for the freedom to be vulnerable.
Even here I struggle to be vulnerable. While writing this post I have worried numerous times she is going to somehow find it and I will be in hot water.  She found a book in my back pack last week about the verbally abusive relationship. After I go to bed, sometimes  she looks through my stuff.  I got an earful. I did a lot of listening. I did try to dialog a little but she was pretty hurt by it all. She really was not receptive to hear what I thought and kept on ranting. She found it when I was asleep at about 1am and that's when the smack down started. She just kept going and when I tried to answer her questions I could only get 1/2 sentence out before is was cut off and told off again. I eventually asked  her to stop. When that didn't happen I said and this is why I am reading that book followed by grabbing my pillow and heading to the spare bedroom.
Then nothing. Hasn't said one word about it in a week. I just find it so odd. If I found her reading a book like that I would want to find out why? I would want to hear what she thinks is abuse and determine if I really was doing that it her. I would feel awful for doing that to her. Yes, I would be hurt but I would really want to get to the bottom of it. I would think that's what a team member would want.  We need to understand each other and strengthen each other not tear each other down. Abuse weakens the team mate. How is that good for her, me or we? It's not. It's just bizarre to me. I don't really mind bursts of anger born out of hurt but they do need to be dealt with and the couple can be made stronger through the adversity. If we don't ever deal with things we are weakening our bond and our team. I so badly want that kind of team in my life. It's a constant battle for me to stay in the relationship because I want that true team so bad and it breaks my heart to think I may live my whole life without it.

[Truthseeker1]

Thank you SOT for the validation and links to resources. I am trying to figure out how to order the books I want and how to keep them confidential. Thanks for your help and encouragements.

[SonofThunder]

Thank you SOT for the validation and links to resources. I am trying to figure out how to order the books I want and how to keep them confidential. Thanks for your help and encouragements.

You are very welcome Truthseeker1.  In your daily living, if your regular activities take you through a nearby/distant town or city and there is a bookstore, the store clerk may be able to order the books into the store for in-person pickup, and you pay cash, then read only in private places.  The chances of the clerk in another area knowing your PDw is slim to none.   

I happened to be a kindle reader on my locked ipad, and had a separate bank account always, in addition to joint marital accounts and a separate Amazon account, but if not, I would have gone the cash route.  Im a person who desires to highlight, so Kindle or paper book is my preference vs audiobook. 

Imo, all humans are entitled to privacy, married or not.  If a spouse doesnt respect that, or trust a spouse with privacy, thats their problem and not mine.  I respect all other's rights to privacy.  My PDw is a combo of NPD and PPD and the PPD part of her was very nosy and untrusting.  Thats her problem to deal with, but I will boundary my right to privacy. 

All the best to you,

SoT

[LemonLime]

Truthseeker, I do understand how confusing and frustrating it is to have friends who you can share ALMOST anything with. I too have friends who I can talk to about very very vulnerable things.  In fact one of my best friends for 20 years I see weekly and we walk/talk.   We have shared such vulnerable topics as how angry we can be at our spouses (not PDs) and have been so mad we wanted to divorce, and how at times we fantasize about not having had children.  We both have challenging kids. We have truly shared our ugly sides with each other and our darkest thoughts.  But when I bring up the subject of my uPD sib, she tries to get it but doesn't.  I can tell because her advice, usually so spot-on and thoughtful, is not.  It's the kind of thing people say to someone who has simply had a disagreement with someone else.  And her eyes glaze over after a bit, because she doesn't find the subject interesting. I believe it's because she hasn't experienced it herself.  She doesn't find it mind-bending, morbidly fascinating, confusing.  Because she hasn't experienced it.   
I decided long ago that her friendship is far too valuable to me to stress it by talking much about my sib.  I'll mention it once in a while and I don't sugar-coat, but I don't delve into the subject with this friend.  As I mentioned above, I have a friend who was married to a N for several years and I can speak about my sibling with this friend.  She understands the crazy-making of it all.  And even with her I balance the discussion with other topics and joy.  I don't want to burn her out.  My T gets to hear it all, because that's what I'm paying her for.  And I believe having a T is crucial for me so that I can preserve my other relationships.  My friends aren't my therapist, and I want to bring joy to our discussions.  The PD topic is just too much to ask of people, IMO.  Hope that helps.

[Truthseeker1]

Thank you for your response. I am so thankful for this forum. I know I keep saying that but I really am. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my posts. It's so helpful to feel understood. It's so helpful and reassuring to me and helps me to not feel insane.  Living in the fog actually really had me questioning my sanity. I am wondering when you first learned about the real cause of the craziness, did you struggle to believe it? The evidence in my life is overwhelming but I can't get her diagnosed because "she dosnt have a problem."  I find it interesting that I can read post after post and relate to what is said. I can post and so many people seem to just get it and yet I still constantly second guess myself. I think how awful I am to have these thoughts about my W. I think  what if she is right and I am actually the N. I know it's not true but still keep questioning. Of course I have my set of issues and am always working on several aspects of my life that I think could be improved. Somtimes I think I am just missing something and when I discover it, everything will make sense. I somehow believe it's my interpretation of things that must be off. There is some truth to that. Time and time again I analyze the data and see it for what it is and then 1 hr later I am second guessing myself again. I have been gas lit to the moon and back. Now I seem to have real difficulty trusting my own judgment. I feel like I am becoming more and more convinced of the diagnosis but still a little afraid I am making a mistake. Did you also struggle with that?

[LemonLime]

Truthseeker, the self-doubt is part of the story for most of us here.  Many, if not most, of us have doubted ourselves (to various degrees) about who is the "crazy" one or the one with the problem.  I can pretty much guarantee that someone like you who is taking a good,hard, balanced look at the situation is not the one with the biggest problem.  Your confusion is a sign that you are being gaslighted.

Yes, the confusion has been a huge part of the issue for me with my uPDsib.  She would likely want nothing better than for me to believe her crap.  I did believe it for 50 years.  Now I don't.  Intellectually, that is.  My body was slower to catch on.  EMDR has helped.  Body work may help you.  You likely have a ways to go to get completely Out of the FOG.  But you have begun the journey.  You will make it.  One foot in front of the other.  Be ready for some bumpy rides. But you will make it, just keep swimming!

[Truthseeker1]

Thank you again, I just have to keep saying that. Thank you! It actually made me cry to hear you say I will make it.
Yes I have a long way to go but I am on the path and one thing I know about me is I don't quit!! Thank you again