Bringing the kids into his projections

[rockandhardplace]

I've been searching through old posts on here about projection and how to deal with it. While there are lots of helpful ideas I don't know to recognise projections and just ignore when he is bringing our kids into it. If I'm honest I don't cope with them on any level. One of this favorites is him spewing nasty abuse at me and literally blaming me for everything that's wrong in our family. Literally he will say "you are to blame for everything". This is a man who has been emotionally abusing me for 15 years and when I started to recognise what was happening refused to come to counselling (maybe a blessing?) or in any other way address any of the issues in the family. But the thing that I find much harder to deal with is in the next sentence (we mostly communicate in writing) he will say "you always blame other people for everything" and tell me that I need to take responsibility for my behaviors. I've listed all of his abusive behaviors, linked him to domestic violence websites listing all the same behaviors, offered to come to dv counselor with him etc and every single time I bring up any of his behavior he repeats the same mantra that I need to take accountability for MY behavior. He will just completely ignore anything I say about his. When I ask him what he means, what behavior he's talking about, he can't ever say. It'll be some nasty comment like "you know exactly what behavior I mean, your behavior is disgraceful, you should be ashamed" etc. The emails read like something from someone who could not function in real life and yet he has a great job etc.

I know I need to disengage completely. I need to stop falling for the bait. But what about when he starts to include the kids in his projections? I was trying to have a conversation with one of my kids this week and he completely took over (fairly common), but also started to encourage her to laugh and mock my opinions. Later on I told him how angry I was at him mocking me and again his response is to tell me I need to face up to my bad behavior and starts listing the things he did saying that was me. And then again the whole thing became about how I need to work on MY bad behavior, I need to take accountability for MY behavior etc etc. And I feel like I have to defend myself and set the record straight in case we end up in family court. But I also feel like the more I protest my innocence the more he digs his heels in. He keeps adding new things onto my supposedly bad behavior. Every time I speak the truth he adds a new lie. And he has the kids so brainwashed and I fear that standing up for myself, setting the record straight is causing him to make up more and more lies that he could be telling the kids. It seems like he actually believes his lies but at the same time I don't think he could. I'm sick of trying to figure out what's going on in his twisted mind, but I don't know how to react to this level of crazy.

[square]

Hi hon,

It's awful.

But you're right. You've got to stop engaging.

It's time to face the fact that you explaining that his behavior hurts you is not going to stop him.

In fact, I suspect your attempts please him and encourage him to try to hurt you more.

When you tell him how him encouraging the kids to mock you hurts, he thinks "perfect, I will do that more."

I know it's a difficult skill to master medium chill, grey rock, and noJADE. But as an emergency protocol, the highest priority for you is to stop handing him weapons to hurt you with.

Ignore his emails.

Walk out of the room when he is nasty.

Avoid him as much as possible all day every day.

If you must answer him (for example if he explodes if you don't and fearfor your safety) use phrases like these, all said dully and boringly and like you are barely engaged with the topic:

Oh
Okay
Is that the case
Whoops
Maybe
Sure
I guess

[Poison Ivy]

 

[square]

It is mind bending to face the idea that your husband likes to hurt you.

I would struggle to wrap my head around it were I in your shoes.

You might not be able to. But you don't have to understand it to accept that it's a fact.

Imagine one day you casually open the door to a room in your house. Inside the room is a lion.

Some people would freeze and get mentally stuck on "how the hell is there a lion in there?"

Others would slam the door shut.

You've been wondering how a lion got in there. You can keep wondering after you've shut the door.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

I agree with Square's thoughts -

Once I stopped engaging, and simply walked away, shrugged my shoulders, or just said "okay", it would be over.

I also started to recognize that I was modelling for my son how to approach his father and also trying to show that his words don't impact me because they are meaningless.

The projection word salad is so ridiculous - and for many years, I would engage and I ended up more frustrated, hurt, angry, confused, etc.... so to my son, I looked like the parent causing all the drama. Go Figure.

My ex wanted me to engage with him - that would fuel his fire.  UGH. 

[rockandhardplace]

I get the concept of grey rock, no Jade etc... and walking away when he gets abusive. I did that for years. When he talked over me at dinner, monopolised dinner conversations etc I said nothing. When he started having a go at me I would be the one to walk away. The problem is that it feeds the kids image of me of having no agency and no power within the family. Dad makes the rules, dad makes all the decisions etc. I can't count the number of times he's said something nasty or even made a threatening gesture that only I recognise and I've gone to my room alone and had to listen to him play the good dad character. I cannot count the number of times he has encouraged my kids to laugh at my perspective, mock me etc and I reminded myself that it's not their fault, this is his nasty game, and just ignored. But I don't want my kids growing up thinking that mum has no agency, no voice. I don't want them to grow up thinking it's okay to mock me and laugh at me. I'm in the preparing to leave stage and trying to use this time to rebuild relationships with my kids after he's worked so hard to destroy them. But whatever I do I lose. He is always here, like 24/7. Other than my youngest kids activities and school pick ups it is so hard to find time to be with them without him around. He doesn't want them to see him rage at me so his method to stop me being able to talk to them is to use them by encouraging this mocking and belittling behavior. All he has to do is laugh or roll his eyes at what I say and they take the baton. Like plantflowers this is how he gets them to think that I am the one causing drama if I stick to my perspective or call them out on being rude. My eldest is particularly influenced by him and will even punish me with silence for days after. 

I think it's particularly bad now because his contempt for me is so all consuming. I've been a stay at home mom for my kids whole lives, nearly 17 years. And he's completely trashed that. Says I wasn't dedicated to my kids and this family I was a lazy, selfish bum. I've been looking for work but it's hard after so long out and he's literally obsessed with harassing me about finding a job. But also I'll hear him talk to his parents about how our kids are going and he has the most inappropriate pride in our son finding a part-time job. Because he decided recently that all of the issues in our family are my fault for not having a job so he's obsessed with kids working and having well paid jobs in the future. Nothing else in their life has any meaning now. I assume this is part of the whole splitting thing that I became all bad, but I have no idea how to deal with it. My kids are being told that the care they got from their mom was worthless, that she's a lazy bum who they have to be the opposite of.

[square]

He is causing an extreme amount of damage.

You won't win because he is willing to cheat at this so-called "game," and willing to cheat at an extreme level. Because you have morals and values and care about your children, you are not willing to weaponize them by indoctrinating them with lies, etc.  So you won't "win" this toxic sport, and that's good.

You don't wantto be the little defeated mousey wife who just scuttles around as a non person. Sister, I hear you.

The email battle doesn't do a thing. Nobody is seeing it, and in his eyes you are weak because you keep taking the bait. Be strong and ignore that foolishness.

You can scuttle away from an insult with tears in your eyes. Or you can walk out with your head held up because you respect yourself too much to engage in his childish games.

You can take the kids with you. "Who wants to go to the park?" (Better to invite than demand they come and set up a battle on that). If nobody comes, you just go yourself and enjoy a coffee. Strong Mom not taking any BS. Strong Mom walking away from the drama rather than being an active participant. Your kids don't know or care who started it, they just hate it.

There is NOTHING that is going to make this situation sane or tolerable. You fighting back is only adding fuel. You can disengage with your head up, a sparkle in your eye, like an adult, like a warrior.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

rockandhardplace -

It is such a hard place to be in;  I hear you and I've been there.

I was also in the same situation as the last two year of our marriage I had less and less time alone with my son.  My ex was always around dictating conversations/what we did/etc....   

I do know that my son saw how I was contributing to the family, so....even with all the jokes he knew my role.  Perhaps so do your children? 

What brings you joy?  Do you have a hobby? Do you exercise? hike?  I encourage you to embrace some activity that provides some peace and fulfillment.  I think it is important that your children see you put yourself first.  You are important and worth it.

[rockandhardplace]

Thanks for all the kind replies.

Going back through old posts I found a recommendation to the covert passive aggressive narcissist and realised I own but maybe didn't read in full or forgot what was in it. OMG she literally described him to a t. I had a few hours feeling better, seeing his behavior laid out, knowing everything he says is meaningless, nothing about him is real and  I have a plan for leaving so one day I can be free from him. Then I read a book about gaslighting and again unreal description of him. But my eldest is still punishing me by not speaking to me because of that conversation I tried to have and him laughing and mocking me. And I realised that lots of the gaslighting tactics that he uses, she also uses. Like "you already told  me that like 6 times", "you're overreacting", "you're too sensitive", "it's not a big deal", "I never said that" etc. I don't know whether she is mimicking things she's heard him say to me or these are PD traits? She constantly criticises me and her siblings. Before covid when I had each weekday after school and dinners with my kids I was constantly telling her off for calling her siblings names. She could never take any kind of correction from me. It would always escalate into an argument. I've always thought this was because he elevated her above me in the family hierarchy but now I wonder if it's more than that? She dishes out the most awful things to me and her siblings but is so super sensitive to even a hint of criticism towards her. Which is what uPDstbx was like before he became more overtly abusive. So I went from mild optimism/ acceptance to bawling my eyes out again   

I am trying to work on my own happiness and I know how important it is for my own sanity and wellbeing but also to show the kids that I have a life but I get so weighed down with worrying. And because I was sahm for so long, living other side of the world to my family, being so family focussed etc and most importantly having been subjected to subtle abuse for so long, I feel like I barely know who I am anymore so it's a slow work in progress.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

Lately, I have been re-reading information about nonviolent communication and it helped me quite a lot with my son.

I realized that I was talking to him in an evaluative and aggressive way. 

My son has gaslighted me with those same words, "you're so sensitive".  I found some ways to respond with nonjudgement towards him but also stating how I feel.

Recently, I watched the Depp/Heard documentary on Netflix.  I felt like Heard came across as an emotional mess and Depp looked calm and collected. So, Heard didn't come across as believable.  This is how I believe I came across to my son - I was so battered down that I looked emotional/crazy/needy/etc...  and my exPD looked calm, collected, and wonderful.  I didn't realize that my observable emotions made me look unstable. 

It's difficult to manage these situations especially with our children, it can be so painful and lonely.  And, when no one else is around to be supportive and offer suggestions as to how to communicate/behave, you are left with no feedback.  I'm thankful that I've been able to maintain a relationship with my son so that I can improve as his mother.  Our relationship is still on shaky ground. I know that there is much in this that I can not control.  What a journey, right?

Just a few thoughts