Thought Policing

[Basil Bachelorette]

I went NC with my uPD sister in 2022. Since then I have had conversations with friends who have had similar people in their lives. All that time we would talk about the unexpected rages, the circular arguments, and the guilt tripping. These conversations were helpful, but all the time I felt like my sister had a behavior I couldn't put my finger on, but I think I have figured it out (thanks to the list of behaviors posted on this site): it is thought policing. I count it in three different ways:

1. In my early 20s, I distanced myself from my sister, but she pushed back against this, saying I had become secretive. She interpreted much of my silence as judgment. In short, it often felt like she wanted in my head, and if I didn't want to tell her what I thought or felt, that was the problem.

2. For many years I was also afraid to disagree with her about anything, personal or impersonal. Disagreement was something which caused her rage.

3. She told me what I thought, felt, experienced, and who I was. This did not always feel bad. In fact, when she was in a good mood, it was a source of reassurance. She was telling me how special I was, how gifted. But I noticed that it was something most of my close friends never did, or only during key moments, and that our relationships worked fine.

Sometimes it was casual. I told her that as an adult I had moved past the problems I had with my parents growing up and I no longer wanted to criticize them during every conversation. There after, she would mention casually that my experience growing up was different, was better, or I handled it better. This was completely ignoring my own interpretation-that I had some difficulties growing up, but had moved past them.

But when she was angry, telling me how I thought or felt was downright evil to me, and it is the reason I went NC. It caused me extreme self doubt and always made me feel like if I simply explained myself then that would solve our disagreement, cause then she could see I was both vulnerable and understand how I really felt. Of course, this wasn't what happened.

So, from anyone taking the time to respond, I would liket to know two things. 1) Do these all fall under the umbrella of thought policing? I want to know if I understand the concept correctly.

2) What have been your own experiences with thought policing?

Please leave as much detail as you want to. I am very interested in knowing others' experience. And thanks in advance for your answers

[Cat of the Canals]

These definitely fall under "thought policing" to me. I've experienced it myself with my PDmom.

If I say something my mother doesn't agree with, it's almost a guarantee the next thing out of her mouth will be, "But don't you think [opposite of whatever I just said.]"

If I express interest in something she doesn't like, then it's, "You don't want to do that!"

If I complete a task in a way she doesn't approve of, then it's, "That sounds like a LOT of work."

On my birthday, she would ask what kind of cake I wanted. If I said anything other than chocolate (what she likes), it was, "You don't really want that! Don't you want a nice chocolate cake?" The only acceptable response to this is "yes."

We had a minor political disagreement maybe ten years ago, and she not only offer to bribe me to change my vote, but when I refused, she went around telling family members she thought I was brainwashed. If I've ever been brainwashed by anyone, it's her.

[Call Me Cordelia]

If I complete a task in a way she doesn't approve of, then it's, "That sounds like a LOT of work."

Another exact quote from my own mother!

[moglow]

Familiar. I learned that any and everything can and will be held against you in mother's inner court of law, as she chooses. Even if it's something she voiced herself, my opinion could be [and frequently was] spun all out of recognition, and any attempt to explain only made it worse. I remember many times [in more recent years] mother picking at something trying to force a fight or confrontation - but no. Very rarely was it anything over which I had any control or even concern, usually a whole lot of invented drama. She'd get just as angry about my refusals to engage. That's what you think/how you feel? Okay, cool. But you get on with your mad self. Not.My.Stuff.

The only way I know to combat thought policing is to become the warden of your own and guard yourself. Another person coming at you with their absolute set in stone opinions, is still their stuff. Raging, angry, pushing it all over you changes nothing in that regard. It takes time and practice to shut off a lifetime of the shoulds and oughts, telling you how you feel [as if they somehow know you best], but it can be done. 

[NarcKiddo]

I have had this from my mother my whole life. But then she thought polices everyone in her head, even if she does not tell them out loud. For instance a friend came into some money and bought cars for her children. Expensive, fast cars. My mother thought this was a total waste of money and said to me that the friend should have bought a cheap car of the same type my parents own because if such a car is good enough for my parents it is good enough for the friend's children. 

[Catothecat]

Thought policing, in my opinion, also includes the right you give someone else to live in your head--when their thoughts become your thoughts, even if you don't really like or agree with or benefit from those thoughts.  Yet there they are.

Seems most, if not all, PDs and narcs in your life are as dedicated to this process as they are to their usual control and manipulation bag of tricks.  They can't stand for someone to be outside of their sphere of influence.  It's one of their "tells" as to who they really are.

Recognizing their voices "speaking" in your head is the start of kicking them out.  I first became aware of my own tendency to listen to those voices when I suddenly heard myself repeating words my father had said to me (repeatedly, actually) as I spoke them aloud to someone else.  I immediately apologized and said, "that's something my father would have said..."  It was something of a turning point, years before I knew about PDs or much about narcs.  I saw how my FOO was still exerting their toxic influence over me.  To this day, I still have to work to separate out what I was "told" from what is really going on.  I also had to learn how to put up that "wall of resistance" that arises whenever those in my FOO who I am still around bring up those old tropes I once fell for.  Seeing the blank expressions on their faces when they realize their words are no longer getting through is quite satisfying.

[Basil Bachelorette]

To this day, I still have to work to separate out what I was "told" from what is really going on

I am very intrigued by what you wrote, particularly this quote. I want to make sure I understand clearly though. When you say 'what is really going on' do you mean what was really going on in your own head, as in what you really intended or thought, but someone in your FOO would tell you was not that? Or do you mean what was really going on in an external situation?

To me, that former is more psychologically distressing than anything, because I cannot have confidence in my own thoughts. But likewise, once I was able to develop confidence in my thoughts about my thoughts and behaviors, it was like a bedrock, a sort of Cartesian foundation of certainty.

As for the latter, although my sister's opinions about external events are less distressing to me, they are also harder to refute because I don't have that certainty of knowing what is going on in say the head of whatever person she is criticizing.
Is that apart of the work of separating what you are told from what's really going on? Or do you mean in instances where you can demonstrably prove the truth and they are lying?

[Catothecat]

It's kind of hard to explain, Basil, but basically what I mean is the process where I still apply false or misleading information by my FOO from the past (either about myself or a situation) onto the present.

It's part of the thought policing where I reflexively put my own thoughts about a situation aside and instead substitute what someone in my FOO has said.  It's not really a deliberate action on my part but rather a habit that I've mostly broken but it can still occur.  For example, my father always told me how stupid I was.  I am not stupid, I didn't graduate college cum laude by being stupid, but if I don't understand something his words will still play in my head if only for a brief moment.  I had to go through a long process of proving to myself over and over and over that he was wrong, and yet those words can still pop up.  No, I am not smart about everything or even a lot of things, but neither is almost anyone else, and the understanding that that's ok and what my father said is BS took a long time in coming.

It can also occur in other instances.  Another example--my sister believes that, on the whole, my father was a great person, and my thinking otherwise is just plain wrong.  She's a narc, so not only can't accept that someone might disagree with her but also feels compelled to tell you just how you should regard a certain situation or person.  In fact, I've noticed this tendency with most narcs.  They want you to hear what they have to say but they don't want to hear what you have to say.  Not if it's something they disagree with.  And if they do it enough times, you don't even have to be around them to know what they'd say about a certain situation or person.  Their words can just pop into your head--if you allow it.

That's basically my whole point about always having to be on guard about those words.  Sometimes I still have to second-guess myself and step back and ask who's really talking here (in my head, I mean). 

Hope that makes a little more sense.

[Basil Bachelorette]

Yes, that makes sense and is very relatable! For me, it is that 'I don't care.' I struggle continually to remind myself that I do care and notice how often I think and feel about those people or events that I supposedly don't care about. And it wasn't just a way of making me feel bad about myself, but also a manipulation. If I disengaged from my sister, that was proof to her that I didn't care, so to prove her wrong, I had to defend myself, and then she got what she wanted: conflict.

So, in your first example, you are being told who you are. In your second example, it is that your opinion about an external factor,(your father) is wrong. (it is helping me to categorize these a bit).

Thanks for your response!

[Cat of the Canals]

If I complete a task in a way she doesn't approve of, then it's, "That sounds like a LOT of work."

Another exact quote from my own mother!

I almost didn't list this one, because it took me years to hear the judgment/disapproval in it, even though in the moment, I felt exactly what it was. That's exactly her wheelhouse -- being subtly, covertly disapproving.

[NarcKiddo]

I was going to say more in my earlier post but got interrupted.

My mother engulfed me completely as a child, to the point I had no clue who I was or what I liked. This has persisted and now, in my fifties, I am trying to find out who I am. There was a film I saw some years ago with Julia Roberts (Runaway Bride?) where she kept getting engaged and would mould herself to like whatever her then fiancé liked. Even down to how she liked her eggs cooked. That resonated with me.

As an adult, the things I notice are:

She makes it clear what her views on any given subject are. You might then be invited to comment. She might even say "of course, you might disagree" but you disagree at your peril. She manages to get people to confide in her and was "helping" a friend's daughter who had just been dumped by her boyfriend by a rather short and unkind text message. She wrote an example of a break up letter that might have been nicer and asked me what I thought about her version. I thought it was far more unkind than what the girl received and on a whim I told her so, and why. This resulted in several days of aggro as she doubled down on her approach. Since the topic was nothing to do with me, and was fictional, I was prepared to have the argument just to see what happened. But eventually I tired of it and told her we would have to agree to disagree. She did not like that very much but since I was careful not to criticise her personally (and it had nothing to do with me personally) she was prepared to drop the issue. If there is anything actually personal (me or her) then she is like a dog with a bone.

If you go shopping with her she wants you to buy what she wants you to buy. So you might get a conversation like:

Mother: Oh, look, those earrings would go so well with your amethyst necklace.
NarcKiddo: But my necklace is white gold and the earrings are yellow gold.
M: So?
NK: I prefer my gold to be matching.
M: Oh, that doesn't matter. Nobody will notice. It is the stones that matter. And the earrings look so expensive.

Or you might try a dress on and say it is too big and she will say "Oh, that doesn't matter." Has been known to follow up with "Then it will still fit when you put that weight back on."

That doesn't matter = you don't matter.

[Cat of the Canals]

That doesn't matter = you don't matter.

Yeppp.

Your opinion doesn't matter.
Your needs don't matter.
Your wants don't matter.
Your fears don't matter.
Your likes and dislikes don't matter.

Everything is secondary to THEIR wants and opinions.

We drove past the mall a few days ago, and I cringed at the notion of having to go inside, even though it had nothing to do with the errands I was running. I don't remember the last time I was in a mall -- I avoid them like the plague. And your post made me realize how much of my dislike of "in person" shopping is because of shopping with my mother. Forget ever being allowed to pick something for myself. She had to "approve" everything and of course would push me to try on and buy things she'd picked out for me. I am her living doll after all. 

[LemonLime]

Basil,
Your post is a great one.  Thought policing.....I don't know that I have a clear definition but I for sure think my uPD sib does it.   I think of it in 2 ways:

1) she asserts that she "knows" what I'm thinking.  She literally has told me that she has a special power to know what others are thinking    So I guess there's no doubt about it....she does believe she can read the mind of any person.  So that just about wraps up any argument....after all, if one person truly is omniscient, there really is no reason for all the other involved parties to express their opinion, is there?  Because the omniscient person already KNOWS what the others think, so why should Omnicient Person listen to the Others at all?   So she feels free to interrupt and shut Others down.

2) she does not believe their are "other sides to the story".  Her opinion is the only well-thought-out, thoughtful, considerate one.  All others are hogwash and usually also cruel and selfish.  She is Better- Than, and Decent, and everyone else is stupid and selfish.  And the world is going to Hell in a Handbasket because she doesn't have enough power to squelch all other terrible, selfish people.   And if I don't 100% agree with her on every subject, her crosshairs get focused on me as Enemy.  And then I might as well be Satan, because I am not 100% totally on "HER SIDE".  Nothing good I've done in the past counts at all at that moment, because all she can see is Evil, Selfish LemonLime.  No benefit of the doubt for the sister who has been very kind to her.   Nope.  The black-and-white thinking prevents her from looking favorably upon me when there is any type of disagreement.  I am either EVIL or I am GOOD.  And there is no in-between.  So since she can read my mind and it isn't always totally in agreement with her opinion, you can imagine how often she has a total meltdown.

It's toxic.  It's maddening.  Even my mom, who is not PD but is an Enabler, has yelled at my sib to "stop telling me what I think!"

[Basil Bachelorette]

She manages to get people to confide in her and was "helping" a friend's daughter who had just been dumped by her boyfriend by a rather short and unkind text message. She wrote an example of a break up letter that might have been nicer and asked me what I thought about her version. I thought it was far more unkind than what the girl received and on a whim I told her so, and why.

This story is wild! First of all, that she went to so much extra effort to help someone, when some kind words of reassurance would have sufficed. It seems like just a way to make herself feel important. But THEN, that her 'help' is worse than the initial problem! That is messed up.

My sister is interesting because she is a hippie spiritual type, so I have never had problems with her in malls and she hasn't commented much on my appearance (except when I was in highschool and she told me I had an adrogynous sort of beauty and convinced me to get my hair cut short. I then had a super awkard haircut for the last two years of highschool). But here is an example of how she will invalidate my opinion. Once she sent me an article via text about Jungian female and male archetypes. I replied that I agreed with the article. And she replied  'But when will it become not about agreeing/disagreeing, with the article, but how it resonates with you?' So even though I did agree with her, it was not enough because I didn't do it in a feely enough way with poetic and flowery language.

[Basil Bachelorette]

Thanks for your response LemonLime!

1) she asserts that she "knows" what I'm thinking.  She literally has told me that she has a special power to know what others are thinking

That's scary! 

Nothing good I've done in the past counts at all at that moment, because all she can see is Evil, Selfish LemonLime.  No benefit of the doubt for the sister who has been very kind to her.   Nope.  The black-and-white thinking prevents her from looking favorably upon me when there is any type of disagreement.  I am either EVIL or I am GOOD.  And there is no in-between.

I 100% relate to this splitting. It doesn't matter how many dramatic arguments I have with her, showing that I care. It doesn't matter how much I explain myself in great detail. We always end up having the same argument once I have crossed her.

I also wonder if it would matter if you did agree with her. I often suspect of my sister that it's not agreement she wants, but the argument itself.It may be too though that she'd be happy if I thoughtlessly agreed with her. We got along much better when I was younger, before I started developing a mind of my own.   

[LemonLime]

Oh gosh yes!  When we were younger and didn't have minds of our own, they liked us better.  It's very sad, isn't it, that we have to choose either to get along with our siblings OR have a mind of our own.

I often think that my sib enjoys the fight, too.  I think that she has an extraordinary need to show herself superior to others.  Fighting is a way to do this...to differentiate herself as "better".   Too much harmony does not offer her the chance to feel superior to me. 

She has picked a fight with me because I mentioned that I would super-scared to get bitten by a shark.  Yep, you read that right.  How does someone argue with that statement?  Well, my sib told me that I "don't like Nature" and that "Lemon Lime thinks humans are better than other animals".  She implied that I feel humans should always dominate other life forms.

This is patently ridiculous, and goes against anything that a person who knows me would say about me.

My sib also is the spiritual hippie type with lots of flowery speech and has a degree in psychology so uses tons of psychobabble.  She is the "Love Child" who hates everyone who disagrees with her.  I believe the spiritual type is a common Narc archetype.   It's always going to be Better-Than.

It's a no-win.  They NEED to be superior, so they don't really want agreement.  Agreement would not make them special.

[Basil Bachelorette]

*Gasp* You are afraid of sharks?! Don't you know that good stewardship is about eagerly sacrificing yourself to predators (Narcs included)? 

This doesn't surprise me too much though. My sister and I got into an argument once because I told her my friend genuinely enjoyed an experience of casual sex on the beach. It wasn't even about me or her!

Another time, she took issue with the pastor at my mom's church saying that people in line at the airport were never happy. This was just a sentence he mentioned in passing to build towards a larger point in his sermon.
She was still stewing on this when we got home, and the resulting argument ended with her barricading herself in her bedroom and screaming at the top of her lungs.

This was also during her peak 'Love Child' phase, wherein any threat to her vague spiritual worldview would cause a meltdown. Her and her bf would literally post content online about how a tree was 'love', but then they ended up alienating all their friends. Makes me sad to remember it.

It's as though, if everything is peaceful, she will find something no matter what. 

[LemonLime]

*Gasp* You are afraid of sharks?! Don't you know that good stewardship is about eagerly sacrificing yourself to predators (Narcs included)? 

OMG!  Sacrificing ourselves to predators, Narc included!!  Hahahaha!
It is so TRUE! 

The story of your sib getting all worked up over what the pastor said and then screaming in the bedroom...yep.  Been there.  It's amazing, isn't it?   They've been set off and they are in their own world by then, unreachable.

I think your last line is perceptive.  I do think that if everything is peaceful they will find something no matter what.  It is only recently that I have come to see this as a feature, not a bug.  I believe that my sib finds peace threatening to her ego.  It's been very useful for me to understand that her ego needs to differentiate itself from others.  It needs conflict like we need water.  I don't think the conflict is an accident, but rather something her hungry ego needs in order to survive.  It feeds on conflict.  Not sure if it's the same with all N's.  Eckhart Tolle's work on the Pain Body has been very helpful for me to understand my sib from this perspective.  I don't believe she is aware that she gets taken over by her Pain Body in these moments of rage.  But now that I've seen it, I can't unsee it.

[Cat of the Canals]

I replied that I agreed with the article. And she replied  'But when will it become not about agreeing/disagreeing, with the article, but how it resonates with you?' So even though I did agree with her, it was not enough because I didn't do it in a feely enough way with poetic and flowery language.

PDs are masters of creating double bind scenarios. I call it the PD "lose-lose" game. My guess is you would have lost if you'd disagreed with the article, too. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Basil Bachelorette]

Lemon Lime: I will look up the Pain Body concept. I read his books years ago, but I forgotten most of it now.

Cat of the Canals: Lose-lose game-that is spot on! The only smart move is to not play-for which I would also be criticized. But at least then I would still have my self-respect.