When/if I should initiate contact

[SaintBlackSheep]

I've been trying to go vvvlc with my nMom w/ dementia and enDad. At the beginning of the month, Mom repeatedly harassed us all via text, so I slipped and sent a JADE-y text message explaining the reasons I needed to step back--how during our last visit in July she was repeatedly very hurtful to all 4 of us, the impact its had on our health, and explained how that's why I've been avoiding her and would not be able to host them for TG. I expected tons of flying monkeys, but aside from a bunch of weird gifts to my husband and kids--every day for 10 days someone in the house (besides me) got an odd Amazon package from her. Since then, I have not heard a peep from them! It's been blissful! But I KNOW she is stewing and smearing.

This is honestly the longest I've gone in my whole life without contact with my parents! My vvvlc intentions were to reduce contact from near daily FaceTime calls, constant text messages, and Alexa ambushes, to once or twice a month FaceTime calls. My kids are their only grandkids, and I'm pretty shocked that my parents haven't even contacted the kids at all--each has their own device and ways to be reached that nMom used fairly frequently before.
So now, do I just continue NOT reaching out and let the silence persist? Or do I use that break to establish that new pattern of 1-2x/month chats per my original intent? If I do reach out, it feels sort of like I might be walking into a hornets nest and I really don't want to try to call them if I have to deal with any of their feelings about this past month of silence.
A BIG part of me just wants to see how long their silent TREATment will continue before she initiates contact. Will it go on forever? Or do I have the upper hand by deciding when I reach out?
As the silence continues and the fog keeps lifting, I am realizing that a big part of my trauma response has always been to initiate contact to get it over with on my terms--I read that this is common in abusive families. The victim might even trigger the abuser at times more convenient so that the narc meltdown might be less likely to happen during big events like holidays. I think that's what I'm contemplating here--if I make the first move, I feel more in control and can control when I deal with them. But I am so full of self doubt that I feel like I can't trust myself, which makes me angry, which makes me not want to deal with them at all. I just don't know what to do.

[Cat of the Canals]

As the silence continues and the fog keeps lifting, I am realizing that a big part of my trauma response has always been to initiate contact to get it over with on my terms--I read that this is common in abusive families. The victim might even trigger the abuser at times more convenient so that the narc meltdown might be less likely to happen during big events like holidays. I think that's what I'm contemplating here--if I make the first move, I feel more in control and can control when I deal with them. But I am so full of self doubt that I feel like I can't trust myself, which makes me angry, which makes me not want to deal with them at all. I just don't know what to do.

This is uncomfortably familiar for me, and it's always a hard one to answer. Something that has helped me in scenarios like this is to center it on ME and what I want. Not what mom wants or what the flying monkeys think I should do. Not what mom will do if I let the silence ride out for longer. The hardest part is separating [doing what I actually want for myself] vs. [avoiding what I really don't want, which is a mommy meltdown].

So I ask myself if I even have the energy to talk and if so, am I willing to give X minutes for the task today? If yes to both, then I will set a timer (25 minutes is my personal limit) and call. If I get one whiff of drama, the call ends. "I didn't call to argue. If that's all you have to say, we'll talk some other time." Quietly withdrawing anytime they try to bait you with a fight or a guilt trip gives the least reward for their behavior.

[moglow]

An old friend used to say: start out how you can hold out. You wanted to lessen contact, do that. Don't feel guilty - DO make good use of the time without them in your head.

If you reach out, let it be for the right reasons - you genuinely have something to say or share. Calling just to appease the hornets nest doesn't really serve any purpose. If you're like me you'd fall down the JADE rabbit hole and you'd end up wishing you hadn't called at all.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi there,

I was listening to a video from Dr. Ramani recently where she spoke to this. When we are bonded to people (i.e. our parents) and we get some distance from them (can be for various reasons) the first few weeks are ok, but then some anxiety sets in and we feel compelled to contact them again.

There are a lot of theories of narc abuse and some of those theories suggest that narc abuse has a lot in common with the stuff that makes gambling addictive. We can feel compelled to go back into the relationship.

With narc parents, I think there is an illusion of control - we want to have some control over how they treat us, and we imagine that if we make the first move, we'll have more control over how they treat us. There can be a fantasy that now that some time has passed, they will be better at listening, they will be better at respecting our boundaries, and so on. 

Narcissistic parents are extremely skilled at doing things to keep their children disoriented or confused. Not knowing if we should reach out or not, is a very common feeling for adult children of narcs. Instead of the dynamic that comes from secure attachment, we have this on-going drama of not knowing what will work (to make this parent behave better).

Their inability to treat us well is what is driving the dynamic we have with them. It really isn't about becoming so skilled that we figure out how to be treated well by someone with narcissism.

The narc mother silent treatment is likely familiar to several others here on the boards. I know mine deployed the 'radio silence' strategy at times. They do it because it works. It keeps the drama going, because their adult child is spending energy worrying about how to fix all the drama. Nmom has her own rules for reality. You DO have the upper hand in that you live in actual reality, where you can trust that you know what healthy relating looks like and feels like. As you said, your parents could contact your kids on their devices but have not done so.

I would suggest that there's some very understandable grief around watching your kids get dismissed / ignored by the two people who should be in the grandparenting role.

Whether you reach out or leave it another week or so, I think it would be helpful to do what Cat suggests and really remind yourself of what you want and what you need, and make your wants and needs very central in your mind when you think about different options for contact.

For background, I went NC years ago, and what you wrote is how I felt as well- "I don't want to deal with all their feelings". Bingo. I got so sick and tired of being the one to hold their feelings for them. Those are their feelings. I got very tired after dealing with grown-^&* adults with their narcissism / enabling BS, when I needed that energy for other things.

The older I got, the easier it was for me to recollect the many times that they completely ignored my needs and what I wanted and needed. I did what Cat suggests, I focused more and more on what I wanted and made my decisions from there.

Trees

[SaintBlackSheep]

Once again, thank you all so much! I have read, re-read, and considered all of these comments a lot since I first posted this, and I still have not contacted my parents (and they have not contacted me or my kids!) My family has been sick for this whole past month, and I think that's part of the reason I slipped and handed nMom a huge supply of my emotions last month when I told her why I've been distant--aka the text that ended it all!   My kids and I have all had recurrent infections and two rounds of antibiotics, so we really do need our energy for more important things than fussing over the wacky and unpredictable emotions of narc adults!

I LOVE the mindset of deciding what *I* want and need instead of trying to bend myself into a pretzel to try to make my parents happy (HA!) or at the very least, mitigate some sort of meltdown on their part. Do you know what has been a real gut punch here? Being middle aged and having lived 10-12 hours away from my narc parents for more than half my life, seeing them only 2-3 times a year, and STILL struggling to answer the question of "what do I want?" My wants and needs were always enmeshed with theirs, and it's really shaking me to realize that, when it comes to that relationship, I still feel very tangled up and find it incredibly difficult to identify which of my thoughts and actions are reflections of what *I* want, and how much of what I do, think, and say to them is a dysfunctional family clusterfVck. How very sad. This realization has caused me a bit of distress that I was unprepared for. I've spent a lot of time in therapy in years past and really worked to disentangle myself, and I did, I made so much progress. But at the heart of it, within that relationship, I still can't trust myself to make a decisive action and know it is truly motivated by what I want and not just a reflection of what I think they want.

I guess part of it is because what I really want--what we probably all really want-- is never going to happen with my parents--and that is to have a loving supportive healthy family. A big motivation to distancing myself, besides my health, was so that I could at least break the cycle and be (for my kids) the mother I've always wanted.   

I do also feel a lot of grief about my kids having NO loving grandparents. We've tried cultivating relationships with other older people in our community, and it's nice, but they all have their own grandchildren. It ended up being more sad to have these non-relatives treating my kids better than their own grandparents do, but not as close as how they'd treat their actual grandchildren, if that makes sense. It's also sad because it had never been like this before my mom's dementia. My kids do have memories of these same people being much more loving and engaged. They still had their problems, but were mostly able to set them aside for the duration of a visit. Not now though.

[Cat of the Canals]

Do you know what has been a real gut punch here? Being middle aged and having lived 10-12 hours away from my narc parents for more than half my life, seeing them only 2-3 times a year, and STILL struggling to answer the question of "what do I want?" My wants and needs were always enmeshed with theirs, and it's really shaking me to realize that, when it comes to that relationship, I still feel very tangled up and find it incredibly difficult to identify which of my thoughts and actions are reflections of what *I* want, and how much of what I do, think, and say to them is a dysfunctional family clusterfVck. How very sad. This realization has caused me a bit of distress that I was unprepared for. I've spent a lot of time in therapy in years past and really worked to disentangle myself, and I did, I made so much progress. But at the heart of it, within that relationship, I still can't trust myself to make a decisive action and know it is truly motivated by what I want and not just a reflection of what I think they want.

I'm right there with you. My husband used to say, "What makes it hard is that they (his mom and mine) always want something, and we rarely want anything, so it's always lopsided." It took us decades to realize that NOT wanting to do something is a want in itself. And a valid one at that. Saying no to a request is the most basic of all boundaries.

Another part of this I still struggle with is: "Well, I'm going to end up talking to them (or seeing them) at some point, so I might as well get it over with." But there's never any "getting it over with." More often than not, they are already demanding more with their next breath.

Something that has helped me a lot is that I've worked hard to stop speculating about my mother's emotions. The dynamic in my family is that mom is a volcano, and everyone runs around monitoring for signs that she might be about to blow so we can try to head it off or take cover. So I used to obsessively worry about whether she was mad I hadn't called, if the fact that she hadn't called meant I was getting the silent treatment, etc. Which leads to decisions like, "If I call or visit or do XYZ, maybe that will appease her." Well, if you stop wondering, you can't worry. And the more I've practiced this, the more I've stopped fearing her anger. Her emotions are hers to manage, not mine.

[SaintBlackSheep]

I finally talked to my mom after 6 weeks. Apparently she's been texting my teen, so my husband texted her just to give a brief update, and reminded her that we've been sick and I've been having heart problems and need to destress. He never texts her but he was trying to do a little proactive and welcome gatekeeping to spare me from her drama, which I appreciated.

As soon as he texted her, she called him, then called me. So I answered. It was a record breaking 7 minutes, and on cell not FaceTime, so I guess that's good!

She was very waifish. I knew she'd latch on to all our prooooooblemsssssss and want me to elaborate. It was helpful that my watch beeped warning me of a high heart rate 1 minute in! I really see the toll she is taking on my health, so I did not elaborate on my problems. We are also having wildfires where we live so she was verrrrry worrrrrrried about meeeeeeeee.  She also bid me a mournful "well I hope you have a nice thanksgiving"   since they were NOT invited, which has been my mission since July.
All in all, It was the best convo I've had with her in memory, just because it wasn't too long. I got confirmation that they're both still alive. I just hope it doesn't open the floodgates of past frequent communication patterns.
As I sit here though, I just still grieve the fact that I could never hear one of my kids is struggling the way we are and NOT care, just want to latch onto trauma drama like she does. There is never going to be any help, any sincere concern, anything. And it's sad. But I am able to protect myself better now.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I do also feel a lot of grief about my kids having NO loving grandparents. We've tried cultivating relationships with other older people in our community, and it's nice, but they all have their own grandchildren. It ended up being more sad to have these non-relatives treating my kids better than their own grandparents do, but not as close as how they'd treat their actual grandchildren, if that makes sense.

This absolutely makes sense to me. I have kids and we are NC with all of grandparents, uPDs all. Before NC we lived far from them all (still do) another family and the wife's parents sort of "adopted" us when we had our first baby and invited us to their family get-togethers for holidays and such. One time my parents did come for a holiday, but we brought them to this other family gathering for a while. This other older couple had dozens of grandchildren, but they treated my kids just the same. Thrift store presents, but it was what they could do and it was chosen thoughtfully and age-appropriate. Gifts from my parents were just random junk. These folks would be affectionate to our babies and notice what they were interested in and how they were growing. My folks couldn't be arsed and rarely even hugged my kids unless it was for a photo op. They would do the thing where they would gather the necessary information to convey to their friends, then show no interest in actually interacting with their only grandchildren. The contrast was really instructive to me, who had never seen a healthy grandparent type relationship before. But when we moved away, they didn't really keep in close contact and I could hardly have expected them to.

It's interesting to me that your mom's dementia fundamentally changes the entire family dynamic so dramatically. I mean, of course it would, but I think it might also make it harder to make the necessary detachment in some ways. For us, NC wasn't really much of a drama for the children. For me, definitely, but for them I don't think there's a whole lot of trauma with the NC. They had zero loving grandparents always.

[SaintBlackSheep]

Call Me Cordelia, I have had the exact same experiences as you describe. All the grandparents are uPD here too. My husbands are heinously malignant--I really have yet to read or hear about another MIL that is as evil as mine. We've been vvvvvL/NC with them always.
By comparison, my parents were never quite as bad. My dad is a delightful guy and very sweet, when he's not enabling my mom. We live 10-12 hours away from all of them--on purpose. When we first moved away before kids, mom and I went through lots of drama as I discovered how messed up her mothering was and how many adult problems I had/have as a result. I was in my early/mid 20s and had no kids yet, so lots more mental energy to devote to trying to "fix/save" our relationship. I did all kinds of emotional labor for her, I went to therapy, I required her to go to therapy as a condition of staying in contact. I'm their only kid, so they went along with my demands in a placating and patronizing way. I am 99% positive mom made up her therapist, because said therapist was somehow always on her side and always thought I was being controlling when just setting boundaries that my actual therapist helped me figure out. But the deal was, either respect my boundaries or we would not see them, and every single visit for 20+ years, she'd test the boundaries, "forget," "oopsies!" and then the rest of the visit would be bearable.
For the past 10 years up to 2020, my kids had a pretty decent relationship with them, considering they'd only see each other 3-4 times a year if that. I SO relate to the random crap gifts, those are still coming! Mom is a shopaholic, and it's NEVER anything anyone wants. And I really relate to the hugs for photo ops! If a photo isn't being taken, they just sit there like lumps and expect me to wait on them and listen to their insane info dump conversations. They talk AT us, interrupt our efforts to steer the convo towards anything of substance, interrupt the kids sharing about their lives, and just want listening sponges to absorb their blather.
 But my kids did know they had grandparents who lived far away, but who loved them. That's all I could hope for. When my mom got sick with covid and nearly died in 2020, that's when the dementia PD started. She had such low oxygen levels for so long that her brain just couldn't take it. She can sound normal for up to 10 minutes before the loop starts. She has these catch phrases to sound like she's not spacing out or glitching. She'll trail off her lates monolog about what was being sold on QVC, forget what she was saying, and say a phrase like "any old how..." or "the whole 9 yards," to SEEM like she is still engaged in a conversation, so her doctors haven't noticed she's not all there. And it's like none of that emotional labor or work I did ever happened, like none of my boundaries that kept us able to stand them ever existed. Dad is still mentally all there, but has eternally undiagnosed depression. Mom will do/say something utterly terrible, and dad will yell at me for upsetting her and "making" her say such a terrible thing! And I am definitely not 23 anymore, so I can't repeat that boundary setting process again, and I don't think it would help anyway because her brain is too far gone. But according to her and my enabling dad, she is just fine. They are both just fine! Dad isn't nearly deaf either, so he can't possibly interrupt the kids 100 times in a conversation or blurt out inappropriate things for the kids to hear! That's all in my head because, even though I'm middle aged, I am still just a spoiled brat according to them. I've "always been difficult" for just wanting to be treated the way all kinds of other people have no trouble treating me and my family. 
Sorry this is so all over the place. I really struggle to unravel the mindfvck that is my relationship with them.

[My New Life]

Hi, 
I too, am dealing with the question of whether or not to initiate contact with my NPD mom, who now has dementia.  It is a heart-breaking internal debate and I am struggling. 

I went no contact 4 and 1/2 years ago.  No anger.  No final words or explanation. My last words were, "I love you." Then, I walked away. I had reached a point, where I could no longer exist in the relationship.  I needed to step away to protect myself and my health (I was in kidney failure).  For the most part, I have been comfortable with this decision.  The space, gave me time and perspective to heal and gain a stronger understanding of how conditioned I was to jump in and save my mom, over and over again - as she destroyed relationships, living arrangements, business opportunities, and did I mention, relationships?  I would throw myself into the midst of her Crazy, and "fix" things, so she could be happy - which she never was.  There was a part of me that believed she could not survive, if I was not there helping her.  Which is why it took me 5 decades to finally find the courage to go NC.

In the past year, my mother has developed significant dementia.  I have been involved, behind the scenes but not in direct contact with her.  I organized her move from a home, to independent living, and then to assisted living; while working with hospital staff, when she was hospitalized, selling her home for her, and coordinating my brother to take over her finances, as her doctor deemed her unable to make financial or health decisions any longer.  I explained to healthcare professionals that I was a behind the scenes only, support.  That I was no longer in relationship with my mother.  Which was true.  Yet, the anxiety, fear, and sadness coordinating all of this, was a strong reminder that I was not actually No Contact anymore.  I observed how I dropped everything in my life, to fix hers, over and over again this year, though this time due to an actual physical disease.

The philosophical question for me is this:  Does the fact that my mother has dementia, and therefore is no longer in her right mind, create a shift significant enough for me to re-enter into relationship with her directly?

Going back into relationship, would not be actual relationship.  It would be a continuation of taking care of her, though now, there would be a medical reason to do so.  I just don't have answers.  It feels like, yet another, double bind situation in which there is no correct answer.  If I go back in, I risk losing myself in an endless cycle, from which it took all of my courage, strength and resolve to break away from.  If I stay out, she leaves this world basically alone. 

I don't know that I have helped your dilemma SaintBlackSheep by sharing my own.  Just know that you are not alone.