I have to learn to stand up for myself!

Eternal Ocean · December 23, 2023, 05:06:59 PM

Greetings,

This is my very first post here, and did not think I would ever seek a forum to help me...but somehow I feel guided here. I 'came across' Dr Ramani on YouTube (not sure how that came into my feed!) and listened to a few of her videos - one of her suggestions was to join a forum for support, so here I am! I think my husband has some narcissistic traits and I'm feeling very lost and alone. We've been married for 21 years, and have two sons. We were married very quickly, within 4 months, and I felt I did not really know him before making this huge commitment. To make matters worse, my whole family is in another country so there is the isolation, and I feel he has further isolated me.

He can be very charming and witty, especially to people he has just met, but behind the scenes is very critical and has contempt for just about everyone. I have just being going along to get along for all these years, but we have zero intimacy, this is my choice as I just don't feel that close to him at all. We sleep in separate rooms. We did try an intimate relationship about 7 years ago, and had our second son and even tried for a 3rd, but I really hated being intimate with him as the daily criticizing and put-downs did not foster any feelings of closeness for me.

Things have come to a head recently as my mom in another country is turning 80 and I really want to go visit her. My husband thinks this is totally unnecessary and a waste of money. I have brought it up a few times, and just get either passive aggressive responses like "you will do what you will do...", or "I wish I had your money" followed by the silent treatment.

He is very controlling around money. I have a job but all of my income is for household expenses, I pay all the monthly bills (except property taxes), car insurance, groceries etc, and while he does work and gets a good income, his is just stockpiled and saved. He does make big purchases for our family like cars, a new greenhouse, etc and it was his savings that bought us a beautiful home, so I feel like I really can't complain. When I have brought up him assisting with some of the household bills, he just criticizes me for spending too much and that I should just stop spending.

I really want to stand up more for myself, but feel incredible guilt and shame, on top of being isolated and lonely. I want to just book tickets for myself and my son to travel to see my mom, but am dreading bringing this up again and the guilt trip I will get. Thank you for listening to my venting :-)

SonofThunder · December 23, 2023, 08:59:31 PM

Hi Eternal Ocean and welcome to Out of the FOG! Im so sorry you are experiencing the narcissistic traits in your husband of 21 years, and that he is attempting to control you in so many different areas of your life.

There are many here who walk this same trail with you, either married to, or prior married to a narcissist. You are certainly not alone in your experiences!

Dr Ramani is excellent! If you have not watched Dr Ramani's excellent glossary series, I have put the link at the bottom of this reply. (Always watch, listen and read privately, as PD's will weaponize that kind of information against their target person)

Also, please see the top 100 traits list (each term is clickable for more information) in the Personality Disorders tab at the top of every page here on Out of the FOG. While you are up there, camp out next door at the Toolbox tab, which is your growing self-protection going forward.

On that note, I highly recommend you privately read 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist' by Fjelstad and be prepared to see both yourself and your husband in that book.

See you around the boards!

SoT

Dr. Ramani: Glossary of Narcissistic Relationships
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3QtnfcMTMhEfRXN-Kk2vndn89nBZxKUj

Eternal Ocean · December 24, 2023, 12:08:57 AM

Thank you SonofThunder and user!

I have a lot of reading and research to do, as I'm just now beginning to realize that my husband actually has a personality disorder, and that I've attracted this type of person my whole life! His father had some anger issues and physically abused him as a child, which seems to be the cause of this.

My best friend all through school was also neglected as a child after her father divorced her alcoholic mother , and has many of the same traits. It been such a wake up in the last few weeks how much I fall for their tactics.

I see that I have a lot work to do on myself in order to set boundaries and not get lost in my own emotions. This needs to take priority now.

I will check out your links and book, and start this road to recovery for my own sanity! Glad to be here, and thank you again!

notrightinthehead · December 24, 2023, 03:50:33 PM

Just want to add my welcome! And a suggestion: one of the first steps to freedom from narcissistic abuse from my husband was the opening of a savings account in my name that he knew nothing about. And saving a part of my income every month as well as putting all bonuses and other extras there. You might consider something like that. I also want to encourage you to go visit your mother. It's something you want to do. And your husband will criticize you no matter what.
Let us know what you decide. See you around on the boards.

notrightinthehead · December 25, 2023, 05:44:45 PM

When I started this, I considered it my emergency leaving fund. It gave me moral support to know that if I needed to, I could pack our bags and leave with my kids. By the time he filed for divorce our kids were adults, so custody was not an issue. However, I had to disclose my financial situation.

Eternal Ocean · December 26, 2023, 04:28:37 PM

For the last 2 days I have been listening to the audiobook version of 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist' and I just wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart for recommending this! It's like opening pandora's box and I am reading my life story. I have been in tears numerous times as she is describing me (the caretaker!) with absolute accuracy. This is EXACTLY what I am like and I so very much needed this to be explained to me.

I seem to fall somewhere between the pathological altruist and protesting colluder. My best friend growing up is a borderline personality (she actually had this diagnosed professionally not long ago), and my husband is a narcissist personality type.

Now begins the steps to see how to dig myself out of this emotional mess. I think my father was a narcissist too, he was an alcoholic and nothing we could do would ever seem good enough, he would just switch off and not have much involvement in our lives. I don't quite understand how I ended up a caretaker - perhaps my desperate need to please my father that never quite worked.

I do have a separate bank account - I saw the need for this early in my marriage as well as having a separate source of income. The stress now is that my income from a part time job is used to covering all household bills while my husband's is just saved and he has control over it. This morning I finally mentioned having the car insurance come out of our shared account (that he still has most say over) instead of mine, but I was an anxious mess thinking of how to bring this up without getting a put-down. I think my fear is of the put-down and criticisms I will get. It causes so much anxiety in me it is like a physical pain in my chest.

What has been positive this week is that I spoke with a dear friend on Sunday who is also a very skilled counselor. This is the ONE person my husband actually respects. He agreed with me that going to see my mom is a good idea, as we need to organize her end of life arrangements and will with my siblings. I brought it up matter of factly again with my husband when I got home, and mentioned our friend's support. He still disagrees that it is necessary and I got all sorts of negative comments, but I felt so much better that I had that outside validation and support from our friend that I was able to stand my ground. I can see how having outside support is so important in navigating this relationship. I would drown otherwise!

So it looks like I will be going!!! It's still painful that I cannot really look forward to it as I still feel guilty. My husband will be looking after my 7 year old son and I'll be going with my 19 year old. I will likely be getting a lot of grief from now until then.

I will be listening to the second half of the book and hopefully start to get some tips on how NOT to feel this guilt and shame.

Glad to be able to post this here too! Just writing this out is helpful.

SonofThunder · December 26, 2023, 06:41:00 PM

Hello Eternal Ocean,

So very glad to read you are being proactive. You will continue to have ah-ha moments throughout the book. I want to encourage you to be gentle to yourself. One doesn't become a caretaker overnight but over a lifetime of being groomed by predator-takers as they create situational and highly emotionally charged double-binds.

The caring traits in you are wonderful traits, but out of balance and manipulated, they steadily become self-destructive as we become conditioned to normalizing our behaviors. The purposeful double-binds present us with two bad options and we must choose. Over and over and over again and caretaking becomes habitual.

Reversing those caretaking behavior habits is difficult but necessary work, and to make the obstacle course more complex, the high-radar predator PD turns up the heat because they sense their prey meal is climbing out of the pot. Keep reading and rereading; keep noticing your caretaking thoughts and actions that have become second-nature in attempting to appease the PD.

Keep a private journal (some wonderful, password locked apps exist) of your experiences and how the book's teaching aligns with your experience and how you can improve upon. Allow yourself to fail and be gentle on yourself as you analyze how you can use the teaching and tools in steady improvement, which is your goal. It takes time. The Toolbox tab is filled with great tools that work very well alongside the book's teaching, so educate yourself continuously and start implementing and tweaking the tools to fit both your personality and the unique situations in your life.

I wish you the best in your learning and in your proceedings with your mother. See you around the boards.

SoT

IsleOfSong · December 27, 2023, 02:37:25 PM

Quote from: Eternal Ocean on December 26, 2023, 04:28:37 PMSo it looks like I will be going!!! It's still painful that I cannot really look forward to it as I still feel guilty. My husband will be looking after my 7 year old son and I'll be going with my 19 year old. I will likely be getting a lot of grief from now until then.

Hello Eternal Ocean, and welcome. Margalis Fjelstad's book changed my life, too! And as I was getting caught up on your story, I was thrilled to read the above quote. Good for you! We only get so much time with our parents — make the most of it, regardless of what your husband thinks.

I'm a big believer in running my thoughts through what I call the "What's more important?" filter — if I were in your shoes, I would decide that it's more important to visit my mother than to worry about negative comments from my spouse about it. I don't mean to trivialize the pain of enduring his zingers — I know what those comments can feel like — but you're making the right choice as to what's more important for you (and your son).

Keep reading and keep posting!

notrightinthehead · December 28, 2023, 02:19:45 AM

Two issues:

you want him to contribute more financially. How can you go about it? Do you have access to the shared account? If so, just start paying from that account. He might throw a fit. But he does that anyway. He puts you down now. He will continue doing so. Set a boundary what you are willing to allow yourself to be called and when you will physically remove yourself from his presence and the put-downs.

Feeling guilty. Just like feeling scared, anxious, sad, feeling guilty is your own feeling. You might want him, or others, to behave in a way that you don't have to experience such unpleasant feelings. But these feelings are your own. And just like fear, guilt is not a good counselor. Trying to avoid such unpleasant feelings makes one behave in a way that might not be beneficial for oneself. I have found that if I acknowledge to myself or my diary how I feel, if I embrace that feeling and sit with it, just like suggested by Tara Brach in Radical Acceptance, the unpleasant feeling wanes. So: feel the guilt/fear and do it anyway!

Eternal Ocean · December 28, 2023, 04:55:49 PM

Thank you all for the encouragement! I have just got to the part of Margalis Fjelstad's book where she recommends creating a journal. I will start doing this. Over the last few days, I've really started to observe my feelings and why I am feeling that way. Guilt and avoidance of guilt are a big part of it. For example, I booked the airline tickets yesterday, but I have not told my husband yet. I am fearing his reaction and the consequent guilt and "feeling bad" that I will feel. I feel bad that he is not happy for me, feeling bad that he may be jealous of me taking a trip without him. Feeling bad that he has to look after our 7 year old and that may be inconvenient for him (I'm usually the one doing all the meal prep, helping brush teeth, playing, doing homeschool etc). I go over in my head that I have to make 2 weeks of freezer meals so he won't have to worry about this while I'm away.

These are all MY reactions and feelings that need to change, because as Margalis states, I cannot change his behaviour. I need to change myself!

I will take a look at Tara Brach - Radical Acceptance. Is this a book?