Son of uNPD Mother discovering and battling his own uNPDH tendencies

[UnsolvedMrE]

My wife and I have been married for almost 18 years. We have two teenagers. W has been complaining to me from day one about my mother's uNPD-like behaviors, but for a long time I couldn't see them for what they were, and I dismissed W's complaints. Even as my eyes slowly opened, I couldn't bring myself to confront Mom about those behaviors (because of our unhealthy relationship), which only invalidated W's concerns even further. Add to this multiple incidents of me lying to W over the years, about big and small things, every time offering excuses (usually involving my upbringing and/or my ignorance/emotional immaturity), and every time promising that it would be the last time I lied to her.

W is at her wits' end, and is contemplating divorce. If it weren't for the kids, it probably would have happened years ago. And she would be completely justified if she chose to go that route. I am hoping that she does not, because there is so much potential here for a good relationship. We are in couples therapy, and I am in individual therapy. I also watch Dr. Ramani videos, and other related videos, on YouTube. I am trying to figure out what the heck my problem is, and what the heck I can do about it (and ASAP).

I realize that I am speaking to a group of people who are more sympathetic to W than to me--and that's a good thing! (W has said that I have a way of making people feel sorry for me--including therapists--and then they just try to make me feel better about what I've done, rather than help me DO better going forward.) I would love some advice. Right now, our relationship is "strictly business"--just communicating about what we need to for the sake of the kids, and the household. She is not interested in spending "positive time" with me (and understandably so). I am trying to spend that time doing work on myself. That is taking several forms, but I also feel like I'm just flailing a bit, doing a bunch of Googling, but unable to turn what I find into any kind of action plan. I'm hoping that my therapist can be of some help in that regard, but if any of you have advice for me, I am all ears. Thank you so much for making it this far, and for considering responding.

[moglow]

Having grown up in/around presumed NPD behaviors, it makes sense to me that you may have picked up any number of fleas, to say nothing of some pretty pitiful coping mechanisms. With that I kind of get the lying - you knew the repercussions of saying or doing something mother wouldn't like, and likely weren't always sure what that might be or when it might hit her wrong. So lies became your workaround, it's what you did and how you got through when you were uncomfortable or put on the spot. And that habit became ingrained. The good thing is, you see it now. You know and are hopefully working to change things. So you address what you know. You can always say, Give me a minute. Let me get back to you on that. I need to think this through... instead of blurting the first thing that comes to mind. Put yourself in the other person's shoes and think what you would want in an ideal world.

Confronting your mother though - Why? Do you have or want any relationship with her? Is she even remotely likely to address anything with any level of sanity or respect for others and how she's treated them? I ask because I know how the few confrontations with mine went and it never ended well. She'd go volcanic rage then play victim of it all [while telling God and everybody how awful you are], go quiet until she thought it was safe to play nice for a little while until things built up inside [like a pressure cooker] and the whole cycle would start over again. There was no remorse, no responsibility for what she'd done, no apology. We were just supposed to play along. And we did until eventually dipped out. It's safer and more peaceful now.

Thing is, I suspect your wife needed you to defend or at least stand beside her when your mother did/said the unthinkable. She may have needed you to stand up and say No more, and mean it. To not do that may have left your wife thinking mommie dearest took precedence and always would. That is, after all, YOUR mother. It sounds good on paper, but is damned difficult in practice. Maybe you need to do that anyway though?

You can't change your mother or anyone else. You're responsible for yourself and your own behavior, so do that. Start there. I guess you kinda are, being here.

Welcome.

[square]

I'm guessing you gain sympathy by being self insightful and saying you want to change. Do you want to change? Will you be showing your wife this thread?

[UnsolvedMrE]

Having grown up in/around presumed NPD behaviors, it makes sense to me that you may have picked up any number of fleas, to say nothing of some pretty pitiful coping mechanisms. With that I kind of get the lying - you knew the repercussions of saying or doing something mother wouldn't like, and likely weren't always sure what that might be or when it might hit her wrong. So lies became your workaround, it's what you did and how you got through when you were uncomfortable or put on the spot. And that habit became ingrained. The good thing is, you see it now. You know and are hopefully working to change things. So you address what you know. You can always say, Give me a minute. Let me get back to you on that. I need to think this through... instead of blurting the first thing that comes to mind. Put yourself in the other person's shoes and think what you would want in an ideal world.

This is great. Thank you.

Confronting your mother though - Why? Do you have or want any relationship with her? Is she even remotely likely to address anything with any level of sanity or respect for others and how she's treated them? I ask because I know how the few confrontations with mine went and it never ended well.

She doesn't do the rage thing. Just the guilt and passive-aggressive comments. But even those have decreased, thanks to the firm boundaries that W eventually established herself three years ago. So her behavior is better, but her displeasure still leaks out from time to time. It doesn't rise to the level of NC for me.

Thing is, I suspect your wife needed you to defend or at least stand beside her when your mother did/said the unthinkable. She may have needed you to stand up and say No more, and mean it. To not do that may have left your wife thinking mommie dearest took precedence and always would.

That is absolutely what happened (and didn't happen).

It sounds good on paper, but is damned difficult in practice. Maybe you need to do that anyway though?

Not sure what "it" or "that" is here.

[UnsolvedMrE]

I'm guessing you gain sympathy by being self insightful and saying you want to change. Do you want to change?

One thing I have recognized is that it is very easy for me to say that I want to change (I have done it many times in the past). But W has emphasized that making such statements without a concrete plan for how I'm going to change is, effectively, a form of lying (or, as Dr. Ramani calls it, "future-faking").

But I do want to change. I don't want to be someone who only looks out for himself. I want to be more empathetic. And I am going to be working on that with my therapist.

Will you be showing your wife this thread?

I don't have a problem with showing it to her, but I don't want to seem too eager to present her with "proof" that I'm making changes. I'm posting on here for me. I'm not necessarily trying to keep this a secret from her, but I would like it to be something that I am doing for myself that she doesn't need to get involved in.

[moglow]

It sounds good on paper, but is damned difficult in practice. Maybe you need to do that anyway though?

Not sure what "it" or "that" is here.
*** 
Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant confronting / talking things over with your mother, clearing the air. Can you make it clear to mother how unacceptable her behaviors are? How are your boundaries with her, or are there any? 

[square]

I don't have a problem with showing it to her, but I don't want to seem too eager to present her with "proof" that I'm making changes. I'm posting on here for me. I'm not necessarily trying to keep this a secret from her, but I would like it to be something that I am doing for myself that she doesn't need to get involved in.

Yes, that's exactly where I was going with that.

You said there was a lot of potential for a good relationship. What are the reasons you want to make it work?

What are the commonalities of the things you lie about (including by omission, eg being secretive)? Are you avoiding responsibility, taking more than your fair share of resources (money/time), making promises you have no interest in keeping, prioritizing other people over your W, all of the above, anything else?

[Rose1]

I was in that situation in my previous marriage. Exbpdh enmeshed with updmil. It was awful. She took precedence mostly because exbpdh got a lot of attention from her and was unwilling or unable to stick up for me. It was definitely mother first wife second. Maybe third after exbpdh.
Eventually she felt quite secure in rubbishing me in front of my kids and exbpdh bought into it or at least allowed it to the point where his respect for me and marriage disappeared.
He went back home to mummy at the age of 50.

So if he had stood up for me and had my back it would have been different. We certainly would have had mummy and enfil shouting sessions but we had them anyway.

Best advice I got was from an elderly lady who said make him choose and move away. We did but they followed. They also used to visit and stay for weeks which was worse.

Make boundaries for yourself and live them. Do not lie. If you want to put up with your mother ok but don't bring it home. Never ever repeat her stuff to your wife and dont force her to associate if she doesn't want to. Limit your time. Don't go and stay all night. Your priority is your wife. Visit your mother for a brief time, then come home.

Find out what bugs your wife the most and work on that first.

Basically decide who you should put first. Leave and cleave is correct. One foot in each camp spells trouble. If your mother can't handle that then that is her problem to work on.

[Call Me Cordelia]

 

Your wife is on the point of divorcing you. You have a crappy "business only" relationship. That's not what either of you really want. You know your uNPD mother-based issues are at the root. You left your wife to establish all the boundaries with her, and from your perspective it "worked." And yet here you are.

She doesn't do the rage thing. Just the guilt and passive-aggressive comments. But even those have decreased, thanks to the firm boundaries that W eventually established herself three years ago. So her behavior is better, but her displeasure still leaks out from time to time. It doesn't rise to the level of NC for me.

Her displeasure still leaks out, eh? But still it's not bad enough for you? What would it take for you?

Seems like your wife has good reason to believe you've chosen mom, or at least you are going to continue to leave her to deal with mom all on her own. Which amounts to the same thing. You are not on her side.

It's not bad enough for NC, but it's bad enough to have created this mess of your marriage. You allowed it 100%. You've owned that much of things. What's the next logical step?

I'm NC with MiL for 6 years. DH remains in very tenuous contact and I'm not happy about even that. So I'm very much a hardass here but MIL has made herself my enemy. No good comes to the home front from fraternizing with the enemy. She would absolutely love it if we got divorced. In a normal family there is room and love for everyone, but that is not our reality, my friend.

"Her displeasure leaks out." I bet it does! I think it may be more helpful to you to get at the root of your attachment to your mother in spite of everything she's done and get that out. As long as that denial is there you're going to stay somewhat stuck.

That's where I am with my own DH, so take that for what it's worth. I've referred him to Dr. Ken Adams Re: mother-enmeshed men, he says he's going to speak to a counselor about it but that's stalled out (again). I've decided MiL simply no longer exists for me anymore. I have a husband problem and the sooner he deals with it, the better. He HAS set major boundaries and barely speaks with her. In fact his parents have mostly discarded him. If they hadn't, this would be a much bigger problem for us. But there's still a lot of residual crap that only DH can clean up for himself. Meanwhile his slowness about it runs the risk of piling up further hurt because I've been hurt enough and this is still not a priority, and it's completely an opportunity cost where things could have been much better for everyone.

Looks like you are having some clarity. Good. It also appears you've been here before and your wife is understandably not willing to get her hopes up again. All I can say is stick with her, deal with your stuff, make some hard choices Re mom and stick with them. You're needing to earn your wife's trust back, and that's a tough job but if you do love her more than mom you can do it. She apparently is still giving you the chance or she would have been long gone. Best to you both.