The cycle goes on

[escapingman]

It has been sent, lets see where their bread is buttered.

[escapingman]

I am not sure what to say, I am tearing my hair out. Got the call from social services and the accusations that has been reported are straight from what uNPDxw invented. I am not the best person in the world, I make mistakes, but I am not a bad person. I can't go through what has been said but I am basically accused for bank robbery when walking against red. At the same time uNPDxw is let off because she is after all the mum that just want her children by her. DD tells me she said nothing remotely like what has been reported, why would she when the worst nightmare she could think of is to move back to her mum.

What is wrong with people. What is wrong with this world.

[square]

It's beyond baffling.

And think, she could just behave normally and DD would come around more voluntarily.

Or could have stopped being abusive and still be married and live with both kids, imagine that.

But I guess winning was all she wanted, even if she loses.

[Rose1]

I'm sorry this is so difficult. Would they interview DD for her opinion?

DH had a number of police call outs by exw alleging domestic violence. She had thrown herself down the stairs. Fortunately the kids backed him up independently. They were in their teens at the time.

After that episode the local police chief told him that they still had to respond but that she was now on their crazy list.

[escapingman]

It's school holidays so will have to wait to next week, but this is getting ugly. I have spoken at length with DD and she is being pressurised to agree with what uNPDxw is saying. I know my daughter and she will crumble under pressure, so in the end if they want her to agree she will. Thing is she is sitting playing the piano for me laughing whilst she is supposed to be scared of me raging at her.

[escapingman]

I really can't do this.

There is nothing more frustrating than being accused of things and not being allowed to tell the truth. The system is not going to be happy until it has destroyed me, stopped all contact between me and DD2 and reunited DD with uNPDxw. DD is useless in the truth war as she is not strong enough to really tell a truth no one wants to hear from her, she is also having a terrible memory and hardly remembers what has happened. DD2 on the other hand is being fed what to say and come across as trustworthy as she is very firm with what she says. Another problem is that DD is completely unaware of the seriousness of the situation and if I get it right was talking to the teacher together with DD2 and in the end gave up protecting me because the teacher would not give up pressing her and she just wanted the conversation to end. When speaking to DD about the concerns the social worker told me she had reported DD was puzzled as she never reported them, where does that leaves me? I mean, how can school make up an allegation that DD is fearing for her safety? I am just baffled. 

[square]

DD's ability to understand this situation and prioritize the truth over endig a coversation is indeed critical here.

You have this school holiday week. You know your daughter and you've had some deep conversations with her.

Maybe one key for both you and her is to just put it in her hands. She has a choice about whether she wants to live with mom, or whether she wants to deal with the annoyance of pushing back on someone's questioning.

[Rose1]

The teachers are not really qualified to do this. If they were they would know that continual pressure gets wrong answers.
Is there some way to pre-empt during the holidays and take DD to a qualified counsellor and let her talk? Maybe one that is prepared to make a statement in court?

[escapingman]

I have had a long talk with DD and she has calmly revealed what has happened. If she is telling me the truth, and I have no reason to not believe her, uNPDxw is about to hang herself with all the rope she has got. DD never said what school reported to social worker, the teacher has only used the story told by uNPDxw and DD2 and completely left out DD's side, or more to it not listen from the beginning. I suppose we all know how convincing a PD is when telling their lies. But since what was reported is factually incorrect and I am sure DD can give a true statement when not pressured. To be honest, the so called discussion that led to the report was conducted with the girls together with DD2 starting to cry after telling the lie so DD never got a chance to tell her side of the story. The teacher had then called XW afterwards and suddenly things not even talked about in the actual meeting was suddenly included as fact reported by DD. I am pretty sure DD2 will crumble if pushed by the right person, XW will rage if she is exposed and end result could be good. But knowing DD never said she was unsafe, and that she told me she would never say she is unsafe means I am as safe as I can be and DD should not be taken off me.

However, I am extremely worried about DD2 and that she is nurturing her own path to becoming a PD. Thing she says, how she behaves and her lack of individuation is and lack of friends is so frightening. But, I am not sure how to help her can I not get her out of the house of PD. Even if I manage to get her out, is it to late?

Thanks for all feedback, I am really apriciating it.

[square]

Glad to hear this update.

With DD2, it's pretty much out of your hands. You fought the good fight. You keep your door open. She had a nice day with you and DD some weeks or months back. There is nothing more you can do at this time.

I know the idea of her making her own choices is quite complicated by her being a child and being manipulated, but there is a degree to which children have some agency and we must honor that. The situation may yet change someday and you'll be there if it does. 

[escapingman]

You are right square, but when DD2 is actively spreading lies in uNPDxw's big fight to down EM and ruin his life action is required. I am going to try to expose this lie, if that fails but nothing else happens I will cut off contact but leave the door open. It is hearth breaking to deal with a child that is being used as a pawn and every interaction has an intent and an agenda.

[square]

100%. I was responding to your very understandable worry about DD2's direction and your saying you didn't know how to help her.

[square]

Oh, just another thought. You could talk to DD about being aware she is feeling pressured, and responding by literally saying "I'm feeling pressured by you right now" or even "I feel like I am being expected to give an answer that isn't true."

[escapingman]

The funny bit that uNPDxw seems to have missed in all this. The court ordered DD to live with me, but nothing about visitation and contact. So if DD felt like it, she could pack her bag and move into uNPDxw's house. If that happened I could only get DD back against her will with a new court order. So.... If DD wasn't feeling safe with me, and all these constructed stories were true she would have moved wouldn't she?

This rat smells and this time it smells to much.

[Rose1]

So good you had a talk with DD. Unfortunate we need to teach our children how to manage a pd, how to enforce her boundaries etc and the whole time put up with parental pressure which can be very strong guilt trips.

Then there's the golden child who lives in fear of being dumped as the golden child and will do stuff to prevent that while convincing themselves it's normal behaviour. She may feel she's burned her bridges with you or just want mother approval.It's really sad and all you can do is keep the door open. One day she may realise how she was played.

It's disgusting how children are used as a pd pawn or even weapon. But you're not doing that, your ex is and she may well reap the consequences at some point.

You are wise to stay out of the firing line and keep communicating with DD especially about the pitfalls for her if she falls into the pd trap.

[escapingman]

I am pretty sure DD2 knows what she is doing and that she is ashamed of it. When I see her, she always look into the ground as if she is embarrassed. But I know it is not her and that she is manipulated, but I don't stand a chance to get that message through. The very hard bit for me is not that I can't see her, it is to see her have her life thrown away to please a PD. That the people that should help her actually work against her by not understanding frustrates me, but why would they think she is lying if they have no experience of PD's and alienation?

With regards do DD I have asked her to not see her mum until this immediate mess is cleared up, then I will ask her to never talk about me with her mum. I think she starting to realise the damage that causes and I am really explaining this to her. I am exaggerating slightly in this example but I think you get my point. If DD tells uNPDxw that I was in the city centre yesterday, uNPDxw would retell to someone else that I was in the city centre yesterday, got drunk and got into a fight in a strip club when trying to hook up with a prostitute.

I wish all contact in any form with uNPDxw could end.

[SonofThunder]

1. That the people that should help her actually work against her by not understanding frustrates me, but why would they think she is lying if they have no experience of PD's and alienation?

2. I am exaggerating slightly in this example but I think you get my point. If DD tells uNPDxw that I was in the city centre yesterday, uNPDxw would retell to someone else that I was in the city centre yesterday, got drunk and got into a fight in a strip club when trying to hook up with a prostitute.

Hi EM,

Two things regarding the quoted paragraphs above.

1. Are you, through the legal system, able to use this incident to flip your paragraph to a positive future paragraph to us? I will rewrite a possible future paragraph below.

"Hi Out of the FOG friends, I was able to use this incident to prove to the court that both DD and DD2 should have a court-ordered, EM-hired professional trauma counselor for both kids. The court will then allow that hired trauma counselor to be a psychological professional witness for both defendant and plaintiff in a court setting and/or provide social services with professional information regarding the wellbeing of both kids. Now friends, there IS someone other than me who understands PD behavior and how the children are being manipulated." ~EM

2. You wrote "exaggerating slightly"

-city center
-drunk
-fight
-prostitute

Not sure how many of those 4 is true (see the bold word above), but imo only the first one is the one that should be true with regard to a future hired trauma psych professional testifying for or against you, and for the children to be around when with you.

SoT

[escapingman]

Hi SoT

There is no court case at the moment, I am not intending to start one either. I know that the only way I will be able for DD2 to see the light is for her to see it herself. I have pointed out to the school that we should get to the bottom of the fabrications from DD2, I doubt that leads to anything as uNPDxw has them beleiving the alienated child is DD and everybody are doing all they can to reunite DD with her mum. I will just have to take a back seat on this and wait for uNPDxw to implode. As for my example it was just a complete fictional one but was supposed to show how much she actually twist the reality. It's so absurd I can't believe anyone fall for it.

[SonofThunder]

EM, best wishes to you in your desire for DD2 to "see the light".  I lived every day as a fully developed adult with my stbx for 20+ years before I was able to begin piecing together the past enough to see patterns and a cycle. PD's are talented manipulators who will snow over a fully trained therapist. 

Imo, children trust their parents to have their best interest in mind and heart and not lie to or manipulate them; more trust even than husband and wife relationships.  "see the light" imo, is a very tall order for a minor. "see the light" is imo, a much smaller order for a professionally trained trauma therapist whose patient(s) is a child of a PD adult, as the children's private and true revelations to the therapist, is a window into life behind the tall wall of the PD's cult-ish, manipulative conditioning compound. 

SoT

[escapingman]

SoT, I am fully aware of what you are saying unfortunately. But I am tired if fighting a battle where everyone is against me and everyone is manipulated. I have 2 chances as I see it, either uNPDxw implode completely and overplays her hand or get exposed. The other chance is that she find a new supply and lose interest in me and the children. Both are very real options, but things I have very little control over. The other option would be to continue this war which will end up everybody on the losing side, but should uNPDxw escalate this war and the current situation demand it I will have to fight. I suppose when everybody are back from the school holiday next week I will find out what the next steps are and if this will escalate.