The cycle goes on

[escapingman]

SoT, you really got me thinking with your post and I have spent quite some time searching around the internet. It's crystal clear that parental alienation is going on and that without interference nothing is likely to get better. I think I need to start laying out war plans again and once again fight for the truth, these latest false allegations might, I say might as I have no idea, play into my hand as I suspect uNPDxw is going to try to overplay her hand.

[Poison Ivy]

escapingman, do you have a lawyer (or solicitor or whatever the term is where you live)? I think it would be reasonable to get legal help given what's going on with your ex now.

[escapingman]

escapingman, do you have a lawyer (or solicitor or whatever the term is where you live)? I think it would be reasonable to get legal help given what's going on with your ex now.

No not at the moment, honestly I have so bad experience from the last time I don't want to near a court. But I will find out early next week what is actually happening. In theory I feel I know more about the subject matter than my last lawyer so might create and submit an application on my own or only hire a lawyer for sanity checks and for the actual court hearings if going that route.

[Poison Ivy]

Good luck.

[escapingman]

But I am worn down as well, DD really doesn't understand and she keep pushing me and being mean and just don't help with anything. If I start getting firm with her she just escalates until she threathen me with something which often includes involving her mum or school. Sometimes I feel it would be best to let her move there so she can see fir herself how good she has it with me. It might come to that anyway as I think she has been used in this big lie that has been constructed.

[Rose1]

Unfortunately sometimes kids need to learn from experience. I know of someone who's son decided to follow the money as a young adult. he was back in 3 weeks with a better understanding of domestic violence.
However it often doesn't go that way.
My ds resented the parental alienation and it contributed to them going NC as adults.

However they weren't fed it daily like a dripping tap. I do think your dd could benefit from counselling if she isnt already. Sometimes someone else calling it what it is can be very helpful

[escapingman]

DD has had counselling but will need more, this is something I am trying to achieve through school and has been promised in the past (not sure current status). But if nothing happens there I will take her private, I have a referral from our family doctor. My aim and hope is that this latest drama will put both girls in counselling and assessment about their mental health.

I have no desire to go to court, nor do I have any desire to start another round of allegations between me and uNPDxw. I have all the evidence, no one seems interested though, and she has false allegations which everyone seems very interested in. There are brand new issues on why DD2 doesn't want to see me, it happened before the divorce so not really sure why there are no warning bells about how truthful they are as they are severe but never mentioned before in 2 years. I am also questioning if school has taken sides here and reported a fabricated story only listening to one side, I have not really go all the details about what has been said and by who. But DD tells me that what she is supposed to have said is not true, but that the teacher and DD2 were pushing here to say it and she was so pressurised in the end she doesn't know what was said. Top that up with that the same teacher spoke to uNPDxw and allowed that discussion to influence her report with so obscure details that DD wouldn't even know how to express.

However, I am  not going to agree to anything based on these false allegations whatever the consequences will be. I am not going to go down in the mud and wrestle with the pigs.

[Rose1]

Have you considered the possibility that the stuff you are being accused of was being done by your ex or something similar she's trying to cover up?

DHs counsellor told him that if he wanted to know what his ex was up to, look at her accusations. It turned out to have some truth to it and she spent a lot of effort and time trying to create an alternate reality.

[escapingman]

Rose, almost her entire case against me during the divorce proceeding were basically a description of exactly what she has done to me and the girls. She has basically taken one of the fake accusations from the divorce case, rehashed it and made it worse than the initial accusations and then put it to school through DD2. As this has been reported by DD2 as her not feeling safe with me school decided to pressure DD to say she isn't feeling safe with me. DD is not remembering the exact conversation but school thought it was best to tell social that DD said she doesn't feel safe with me, which is absurd and why would she do that when she know that she certainly wouldn't be safe with her mum.

[SonofThunder]

"My aim and hope is that this latest drama will put both girls in counseling and assessment about their mental health."

Imo, school's are not equipped to handle these issues. I know of a man who divorced a BPD with multiple minor children. The man realized quick that school counselors were ineffective and therefore has used the hardship created by the PD to get a trauma-trained counselor for his children.

This counselor is authorized, should the counselor believe is necessary, to report any children-wellbeing concerns to social services.  Social services is then able to use those authorized findings to assist a court (if necessary), to choose what is best for the children. 

Social services in my area is purposely focused solely on the children's wellbeing, not the adults in the mix.  Therefore when an authorized trauma counselor of children reports to social services, it's meaningful to the wellbeing of the children, outside any influence from parents. 

BOTH parents choices and activities are equally considered in the counseling of this man's children, which is fair to all parties. Therefore a parents proactive choices in the wellbeing of all the children is recommended, and both parents have the same options. If costs of counseling is in the mix, then there may have to be other expenditures (travel for example) that may have to take a backseat in the priority of the children's wellbeing. 

SoT

[escapingman]

You are absolutely right SoT, school is not qualified. By their incompetence they really stirred something here. I mean, in a highly toxic situation with the kids having opposite views you don't interrogate one of them in front of the other to agree. Absolute chocking

[SonofThunder]

You are absolutely right SoT, school is not qualified. By their incompetence they really stirred something here. I mean, in a highly toxic situation with the kids having opposite views you don't interrogate one of them in front of the other to agree. Absolute chocking

YOU certainly know its highly toxic, but school counselors only have a relationship circle 4 and 5 view, which is outside the walls of a compound that hides the inside-toxicity truth that only circles 1 and 2 know.  Therefore not a surprise that situations with minors spiral downward in a school counselors office. PD's are professional groomers of children.

A outside, trained trauma counselor may be equipped to decipher what has actually occurred inside the compound, both in the past and also ongoing. If possible in your area, they may be able to report concerns to social services, and social services may already have outside trauma therapy specialist's names with whom they have worked prior. 

SoT

[Rose1]

Excellent point. Good counsellors are likely to be in private practice because they can.
It's possible the school counsellor is also under pressure to not call out the teacher's behaviour. Plus they may report back. Arms length is often very good.

[Rose1]

Also as children get older the abusive pd may have a sudden realisation that they have lost control as the kids get older and better able to understand what is going on. This can cause the pd to double their efforts.

It certainly did with DHs ex. Threats to the kids were sufficient to instill a great deal of fear. Some were threats about what she would do to dh. As one of his ds said when grown "we knew you were the only one that loved us and we were terrified she would take that away."

[escapingman]

DD has completely changed since the incident and the school intervention. She has got back to completely disrespect me and being quite abusive to me. I can see her looking at me and thinking "What are you going to do about it, I have the power and can tell school anything". She has done this in the past when not getting what she wanted, at least last time the safety team in school didn't think it was unreasonable to raise my voice when she flat out refused to clear her stuff off the floor. She has threatened me to tell school in the past where I have had to ask her what it is she really is going to tell school without getting an answer. But now I am really worried she will admit to something or tell something completely untrue just to get attention or punish me (she has lost a top and blames it on me).

I am sure all of you with a PD involved understand the difficulty to get any discipline in order when you are constantly undermined. DD also know for her to get accepted and "loved" she need to join in with uNPDxw and DD2 in the bash EM talks, and if she can tell them some stories about me (doesn't matter if they are true not) she gets treated like the golden child. This is and has for some time put an enormous pressure on me that I am struggling to cope with, I can't really trust the one living with me, it feels like being spied on and that any perceived fault can get reported to uNPDxw or DD2 or to school either directly or through them. I have really done work on myself and I am not reacting much anymore, I am not accepting being judged or accused and I am not going to defend myself against lies other than just state they are not true and then leave it.

I get your points about counsellors, the ones through school doesn't seem to do much so unless social services can provide someone competent (unlikely) it has to be private. But as uNPDxw doesn't want anyone talking to DD2 it is very unlikely I get that to happen unless ordered by court (unlikely without spending thousands of pounds and another year of court hearings).
 

[Rose1]

Maybe counselling for DD only then. She's playing a very dangerous game and will get burnt.

And it's the ultimate play one parent against another. Trouble is she loses. I wonder if she understands that her entire future is hanging on how she behaves now and does she realise the disrespect toward you is unacceptable?

I imagine like you said she gets brownie points from mum but at what cost?

But it likely will not sink in until she hears it from someone else. Imagine trying that stunt in the workforce

[escapingman]

DD has been really good today, I will try to prep her for tomorrow when she is likely to be questioned. I need to remind her to not fawn when being pushed and to stick to the truth always.

But let's see how this goes this week, your guess is as good as mine.

[square]

Again, suggest she name the discomfort when she feels it, eg "I feel like everybody wants me to say X" or "I just feel a lot of pressure right now" or even "this doesn't feel good" instead of saying something just to end it.

[escapingman]

This is just getting muddier and I really don't know what is going on. DD has spoken to the teachers now and they did NOT report to social services that DD has safety concerns about me. Apparently most of the report was about uNPDxw and her verbal abuse towards DD outside the house. Why do I have a feeling that the social worker spoke to uNPDxw first and that she told a different story that the SW decided was trustworthy enough to lay into me about all the safety concerns DD had reported. What makes this smell even more is that the SW said she was going to talk to uNPDxw AFTER she had spoken to me making me believe she had not spoken to her yet.

SOMEONE IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH!

Whoever that is, WHY?????

It's very unlikely DD or school as DD told me school happily show me the report and speak to me.

I will wait to see what is being said next, but DD stood up for me and said the only safety concerns she has is with her mum.

[square]

I'm not sure how to feel about that, but I am hopeful that the cracks you have run into will just bust this whole thing open.