Labels and the Nuances of Narcissism

[Basil Bachelorette]

 I've had a recent breakthrough I'd like to share in case it's of use to anyone.

When I first came Out of the FOG, I immersed myself in content about narcissism and other personality disorders. This content was eye-opening and extraordinarily useful in helping me make sense of what I had been through, but I found at times I was becoming a little paranoid, and eventually, when I saw Nsis again, it gave me much cognitive dissonance. I couldn't reconcile her complexity with much of the online discourse on narcissism, which I now think of as more of an amalgamation of all the ways narcissistic behaviour can show up. I noticed times when my sister was genuinely empathetic, thoughtful, and humble. You could say this was all a persona, but then I would never know who to trust with such behaviour, hence the paranoia.

I've begun to think about my sister's narcissism differently. I have been consuming content by Heidi Priebe and JH Simon; I was also talking to a therapist, and this breakthrough evolved through all of this.

I now think of my sister as someone who has an unhealthy relationship to shame. When she feels shame, she cannot handle it, and she projects it viciously onto others by listing all their faults, making them feel bad for how they made her feel, and so on. She can learn that there are certain things she should not feel ashamed of. Maybe she can even handle shame in small doses. But too much shame, and she will burst. Maybe she even represses a lot of shame until the moment she can't. She probably feels shame over much that she shouldn't. 

I feel at peace with this explanation. It fits my observations of her better, and helps me to take her behaviour towards me less personally.

[moglow]

The Four Agreements helped me a lot, taught and reminds me that little of what others do or say is about me, but rather their own stuff. I grew up believing (because I was told frequently) that it was all my fault or my responsibility to fix or I was just roundly berated when things went "wrong" in general. I look back now and wonder how I was responsible for everything and yet no one seemed responsible for me. Nobody seemed to notice that part.

The shame is probably as close an explanation that you'll ever get. That they assume all that shame, that everything is and will be about them personally, is narcissism at its most basic. 

[Rebel13]

Hi Basil Bachelorette, I have had thoughts along these lines too. Sometimes it seems to me that these traits can be on a spectrum. I wonder if people who grew up with a PD parent or another kind of ongoing trauma can behave somewhat similarly, but also have moments when they behave in ways a truly disordered person would not be able to. Maybe these are cases of "fleas" of varying severity. I have also looked at my own behavior sometimes and thought it could seem, from the outside, pretty disordered or self-centered, although I believe in my case it was "fleas" or CPTSD. I think there can be overlap between how personality disorders get expressed and how CPTSD sufferers behave. One important thing I learned from Lindsay Gibson's book about emotionally immature parents is that there are people who are willing to learn and change and grow, even though it's hard, and people who aren't. Sometimes I think that willingness is the biggest difference between people who spend their lives behaving in ways that pass on the trauma they suffered, and other people who grow in kindness, wisdom, and compassion as they work on themselves throughout their lives. I know which group I want to belong to, anyway.

[Invisiblewoman]

Being unable to handle shame and viciously projecting is a classic trait of narcissism. I have family who seem capable of empathy until they are in situations that require to give empathy beyond themselves. they are in short supply of empathy if it doesn't benefit them in some way.

[LemonLime]

Wow Basil, you really hit the nail on the head for me.

I coincidentally also have an undiagnosed N sis who sounds like your sib.   I was just yesterday saying to my hubby that my sib (who I'm VVLC with) can be genuinely empathic and generous.  And how that is confusing to me, as she is not clearly narcissistic all the time.   However, I can remember like it was yesterday the last time (years ago) when she "dressed me down" about some random small issue where she felt disrespected by me.   I can still, in my mind's eye, see what I can only describe as contempt in her eyes.   As I've said before on this forum, Dr. John Gottman believes that contempt is the worst of the Four Horsemen of the Apocolypse, and that contempt will kill a relationship faster than anything else.  And that explains to me why once I really and truly experienced my sib's contempt, that there was no going back to a relationship with her.   I just couldn't experience that again.   Totally traumatic for me.

That said, she has been my best friend at times in my life.  That will not happen again, but in years past she has been the most comforting and understanding person in my life.  I don't believe that was fake.

And the shame...yes.   She was a child who was very difficult to handle, and my mom let her know that.  So she grew up with shame.  For sure.  And yes, I believe things can be good until her Shame gets triggered.

I've chosen not to stick around to walk that minefield.  And it's a darn shame, so to speak.  She will not look inward to see what she can fix, so I will need to stay away.

Thanks for the insight.  It's brilliant and explains a lot.

[Poison Ivy]

I think that almost all traits occur on a spectrum, including ones related to narcissism and including for most of the people who post on here as "non"s. I am not an exception. I agree that it can be helpful in coping to get away from labels.

[Basil Bachelorette]

The Four Agreements helped me a lot

Thanks moglow! I'll keep an eye out for it.

Sometimes I think that willingness is the biggest difference between people who spend their lives behaving in ways that pass on the trauma they suffered, and other people who grow in kindness, wisdom, and compassion as they work on themselves throughout their lives. I know which group I want to belong to, anyway.

Well said Rebel!

LemonLime, I remember you commented on some of my earliest posts, and I always found the similarities of our situations comforting.

she has been my best friend at times in my life.  That will not happen again, but in years past she has been the most comforting and understanding person in my life.  I don't believe that was fake.

This too is my experience. I can't believe it was fake, or I wouldn't be able to trust any friendship. But like your sister went too far with contempt, mine went too far with her accusations. At some point, we have to have self-respect.

[Invisiblewoman]

I think that's a good way of looking at it. At the end of day the behaviour will always frustrate and cause misery but it's like they never developed proper coping skills for properly expressing emotions. Like they're stuck at the maturity of a child at that point when they were wounded. Deflection onto others deflects the pain.

[LemonLime]

now think of my sister as someone who has an unhealthy relationship to shame. When she feels shame, she cannot handle it, and she projects it viciously onto others by listing all their faults, making them feel bad for how they made her feel, and so on. She can learn that there are certain things she should not feel ashamed of. Maybe she can even handle shame in small doses. But too much shame, and she will burst. Maybe she even represses a lot of shame until the moment she can't. She probably feels shame over much that she shouldn't. 

Thank you Basil. This is so eloquently stated, and captures my thoughts about my sister exactly.  There is this "little" problem of Shame, which while a seemingly small part of my sib, turns out to be a very very big problem for our relationship.  Because it is vicious when it explodes,and it destroys other people.  For this I feel compassion for her, and yet that compassion does not change what I must do to protect myself.   I feel compassion for psychotic people too, but I don't walk up to them  and hug them if they appear dangerous.
Thanks for putting into words what I have felt for so long.  It makes me feel less alone.

[LemonLime]

one more thought:  I think Brene Brown is considered one of the shame experts.
I've dabbled in her content, and found it does make sense in the context of my FOO and upbringing.

[Basil Bachelorette]

Thanks for your responses Invisible

Like they're stuck at the maturity of a child at that point when they were wounded

I've heard this before, but I feel I understand it now!

Thanks for putting into words what I have felt for so long.  It makes me feel less alone.

I am happy to hear this Lemon! I will have to check out Brown some day; she is very prolific!

I just started reading "The Courage to be Disliked" and it also touches on these themes. Here is a quote: "If someone were to abuse me to my face, I would think about that person's hidden goal. Even if you are not directly abusive, when you feel genuinely angry due to another's words or behavior, please consider that the person is challenging you to a power struggle."

This makes it sound very conscious on their behalf, but to me it can definitely represent an unconscious projection of shame.