Do PD's Do This

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gary

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Do PD's Do This
« on: May 27, 2012, 04:29:28 PM »
  Hi folks.

 Been noticing a trend and it's one that just kinda happens here on these forums as they go along. It's the : Do PD's do this or that.

Just so we don't become displacement I just want to say that we really can't put them all into one bag like that because there are many differant personality disorders and among those are the differant quirks that an individual with or without a PD may have anyway.

So we really should be more specific in which Pd we are wondering about. I know it's tempting to wonder and try and find coorelations so that it all makes more sense to us but it is best to not drift too far off the criteria and no also not forget the co morbid factor when one is predominate but then other bits and pieces of another PD are there as well.

One could do a study on how many people had a tuna fish sandwich 3 days before they got engaged to be married and say a study shows that there could be a correlation between tuna fish and walking off into the sunset with each other or that tuna fish causes a lack of commitment. :oh:

Thanks

P.S.  Many years ago on our first forum and in our own learning stage we actually had a thread going called: "Do all BPD's eat cheese"  It went on for several pages till it dawned on us that if a professional happened to scan our forum they may wonder what in the world are they talking about. 8-)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 10:31:40 PM by gary »
" A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because its trust is not on the branch but on its own wings.

Believe in yourself ".


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SDK1963

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2012, 08:17:41 AM »
Be careful gary - somebody might just take that idea and run with it  :bigwink: ... although frankly 'my unBPD doesn't eat cheese, she's lactose intolerant' ;) !

Thanx for the reminder though - yes, it's easy to fall into the 'do your PD's do this' trap ... I think it's worse during the 'awakening' phase when we realize that alot of the abuse that we have been suffering isn't as rare and freaky as we had thought.  So much of living with PD's is about feeling like nobody gets what we're going through.  And since many of the PD's in our lives don't seem to want to own their behavior - its nice to have something to 'blame' the abuse on ... chalking it up as just another symptom sometimes feels better !

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gary

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2012, 08:48:29 AM »
Quote
although frankly 'my unBPD doesn't eat cheese, she's lactose intolerant'  !


  LOL...Mine was too...hummmmmmmmm.....Naw, couldn't be ;)

But she really was.
" A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because its trust is not on the branch but on its own wings.

Believe in yourself ".


Josh S hipp

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gary

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2012, 11:42:48 AM »
Quote
And since many of the PD's in our lives don't seem to want to own their behavior - its nice to have something to 'blame' the abuse on ... chalking it up as just another symptom sometimes feels better !

I understand that totally.

I know when I first started I was subconsciously looking for anything and everything I could pin that tail on that would not point to it being my fault. Back then to have thought that it was all or much of anypart my fault would have been a dangerous thing....So it's natural to do that and maybe even necessary for awhile.

Then and maybe only then can we see the whole picture in what parts were theirs ,ours and the parts that just were. Then we know how and what to heal and what to just let go as stuff happens.

But it's only the whole complete truth that we need to light that way otherwords we have just kidded ourselves into another reality just to live it out again.
" A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because its trust is not on the branch but on its own wings.

Believe in yourself ".


Josh S hipp

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Varja

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2012, 01:53:12 PM »
So it's natural to do that and maybe even necessary for awhile.

I think you're right, especially for those adult children who are finally coming to terms with the behaviors of their afflicted parents. For many, this is a person who had a tremendous influence upon their lives and now they're faced with learning a different way to behave themselves. It can be very helpful to identify those behaviors and work through a process of sorting them out - as you've indicated: "who owns what."

Also think that we come by this tendency based upon a few more factors:

- The DSM reads like a recipe: 1 part rage, 2 parts dissociation, a pinch of invalidation = *PD.

- Several popular websites are devoted to one specific PD. Members tend to become fixated upon certain behaviors and often miss the bigger picture.

- Plenty of pop psych. books on the market focus heavily on the "identification" of specific behaviors in order to define an overarching PD label. Strong on definitions, but most fall way short of offering a useful explanation of these individuals.

An undercurrent to most of these behavioral queries is usually, "does my PD know" they're doing (whatever.) As if understanding potential awareness, then ascribing a motive actually changes the challenges before them. This is where we can get seriously derailed if we're not very careful, too.

I've studied, and that's probably a fitting description, two people seriously afflicted with PD's since the 60's. Beginning in the 70's, at least three more came into my orbit, and I've had the dubious distinction of seeing them throughout many phases of life. One I've known from birth to his mid forties.

I've come to appreciate the fact that I didn't fit in with them, and while I certainly wouldn't wish my experience upon anyone else, I've made some observations that I believe are applicable to many other people so afflicted:

- We can't separate the PD from the person. They're simply being who they are.

- At various times in our relationships with them, we may attempt to assimilate. As children, many had no choice in the matter. As romantic partners - we may have had a choice, yet we chose to remain in the relationship in spite of certain behaviors.

- Once we've accepted that we can't tolerate our relationships with them any longer (for whatever reason) quite naturally, we tend to identify and label their behaviors as (bad, wrong, whatever.) Somehow this helps in justifying our inability to tolerate them. Perhaps we're actually protecting our egos.

We often see folks who are enduring this phase of a relationship with a PD join the site and begin asking questions. They're either in the process of attempting separation or teetering on the brink. Some have already done so, and are trying to make some sense of the experience in order to heal and move on with their lives. Thus the tendency to see these sort of questions crop up repeatedly.

I think it is fascinating yet tragic that many people have gotten sucked into these relationships because their partner "seemed" so normal - so caring, so loving, so affectionate, so kind. Sometimes we see what we want to see - and overlook the rest if the perceived reward is big enough. Once it becomes apparent there will be no expected reward, then often our ability to see the problematic behaviors is restored. Some report that once the (seduction) phase is complete - only then do they begin behaving badly, so probably its a combination of both.

What we are actually seeing is a person "being" themselves. Freud theorized that certain sets of behaviors are actually ego defense mechanisms. We all use them, too (even "nons.") We seek to protect the images of ourselves, and our behaviors are in keeping with this subconscious "prime directive."

Since it operates on the subconscious level, we/they don't realize what we're/they're doing most of the time. A common limitation of those having PD's is their inability for self-reflection, and this shouldn't be overlooked.

Those considered as "nons" do have the ability of self-reflection - therein lies the all-important discriminator. Nons do understand the impact of their behaviors upon others, then adapt as necessary.

Consider it like a computer's operating system. It's hidden beneath many layers of graphic user interface (programs) yet we don't see it working. Without the OS, the computer would cease to function. Without ego defense mechanisms, we would cease to be human beings.

These ego defense mechanisms only become pathological when their persistent use causes maladaptive behaviors (rage, dissociation, projection, lying, etc.) and their physical/mental health is affected.

Pathological ego defense mechanisms might be further defined as PD's. And we're back to where we started - with the DSM and trying to identify and further define "behaviors."

How many of us have confronted someone with a PD - with an obvious behavior (like lying) only to have that person steadfastly deny the behavior? How about accusing someone with a PD of "deliberately" intending to hurt us by their behavior?

It usually doesn't go very well, nor result in a mea culpa admission of fault or responsibility, does it?

I believe this is because they simply have zero awareness that their behaviors are - what they are, and that anyone else might find those behaviors problematic. They really "don't get it." In their minds, they're only being who they are, and doing what they do.

This just might be because their operating systems are corrupted on a fundamental level. Often, we can isolate the specific fault within the pages of the DSM.

I don't want to overlook "stayers," nor parents of children so afflicted, either. You folks must be some of the strongest, most dedicated people on this planet - and you have my absolute respect and admiration. For those of you who are learning to become emotional caretakers in relationships with PD's - I suspect many of you already "get it." In spite of the daily challenges, you're hanging in there and learning how to adapt your behaviors in order to preserve the relationship. Hat's off to all of you.

Oh, and by the way - one of my PD's has a fear of pomegranates. Go figure. :blink:
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

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gary

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2012, 02:14:18 PM »
You put a lot into that response..thank you.

Yes the DSMV and it's being revised as we speak.

That has to be the base we keep coming back to to stay in the ball park of being relevent even though we might like to be in on the re writting of it at times. ;)

A few years ago I tried to come up with a new trait that might cover lots of what we experience that didn't make the edit cut into the DSMV as a condition.

I call it, "The Jerk Factor"

Some people don't met the criteria for any PD but are just a common ole garden variety jerk. ;)

Nice thing is out tools here work for those as well.
" A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because its trust is not on the branch but on its own wings.

Believe in yourself ".


Josh S hipp

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http://gawalters.com/blog/

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Varja

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2012, 02:21:27 PM »
Steve Martin did a movie with that title.... I doubt everyone appreciated the levels of humor within, but some sure did.

They do tend to get carried away with their own self-importance. The trouble is, not far enough.
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

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reclaimingme

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2012, 06:19:42 PM »
Good point Gary,

I found I have had to learn to separate some things

Some things are just male (sure the same thing for us females)
Some things are him just being a jerk
Some things are bipolar ll (in my ex's case)
Some things are NPD (in my ex's case)

The tough thing is working out which is which so you know what to be concerned about and what needs borders, boundaries or no comment!
Coincidence is God's way of being anonymous - Einstein

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SDK1963

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2012, 03:51:43 AM »
The tough thing is working out which is which so you know what to be concerned about and what needs borders, boundaries or no comment!

And that, dear reclaimingme, is my quandry for today ...

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Varja

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2012, 12:20:06 PM »
The tough thing is working out which is which so you know what to be concerned about and what needs borders, boundaries or no comment!

Would it be helpful to approach from a different direction? Here's something that works for me:

Any behavior, any comment, any action, that:

- violates personal boundaries
- minimizes another human
- invalidates another person's existence
- mocks someone
- fosters hatred
- perpetuates cruel stereotypes
- inflicts fear
- causes guilt
- implies obligation
- intimidates
- is inconsiderate of others
- implies cruelty
- is blatantly self-serving
- inflicts unwanted influence
- is coercive
- causes pain: emotional or physical

Be they intentional, or through acts of omission - they're things we don't have to tolerate. People with PD's and nons both are equally capable of engaging in these behaviors.

We rarely, if ever,  see these behaviors from emotionally healthy and mentally stable people. Surrounding ourselves with people who don't is one of the best gifts we can give ourselves.
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

~ Bodhipaksa Krishnamurti

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sms12122009

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2012, 01:16:22 PM »
I love this last response! It's almost like we're teaching a child what behaviors are unacceptable an the diff in right and wrong.   But honestly my unPDH, sometimes can't rationalize why he has done XYZ or how XYZ afftects me emotionally etc.   
This is like a Guide to reiterate what is acceptable and what's not.
Thank you!

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Ljcrew0617

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2012, 06:16:45 PM »
Ok...glad someone said something...I'm a new bee and was just wondering...and couldn't figure out everyone was lumping all of the PD's together...ok....I'll stay a little longer...

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SDK1963

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2012, 06:26:36 PM »
it's a temptation we have to lump it all together so we feel the connection between us more strongly ... so many of us have suffered from isolation and that 'is it only me' fear with the PD's in our lives - THAT we have in common.  And so we forget, sometimes that our PD's are individuals and each and every one of them is different ... and that the disorder they suffer from is different too.  Sorry !

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gary

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2012, 06:41:24 PM »
Quote
and that the disorder they suffer from is different too.  Sorry !

It's common and something we have to reign in about once a year or so in order to keep the differant PD pure so to speak otherwise they become a stew and loose their identity.

Reminds me of how Crescent Wrench lost it's brand name by allowing a couple years to go by with people calling any adjustable wrench a crescent wrench where Crescent was the brand name of their adjustable wrench. A Fedreal judge agreed that they didn't protect their name and so.....poof it's gone. Sears can call their adjustable wrench a crescent wrench.

Besides I guess when you look at each PD's criteria they already have so many negative factors working against them that they don't need anymore ;)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 06:49:03 PM by gary »
" A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because its trust is not on the branch but on its own wings.

Believe in yourself ".


Josh S hipp

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http://gawalters.com/blog/

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IDK

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2012, 07:31:38 PM »
Varja, love everything you wrote on your list of things not tolerated by anyone, whether pd'd or not.


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Greyhound

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2012, 01:47:35 PM »
I love that list Varja, i've added it to my collection of 'useful things'.

I sometimes wonder, going back to the original post, if there's a danger that we could all get a bit bogged down in trying to work out what's going on with the PD in our life, and kind of forget to live our own life.

When i was married to exh - there was a lot of what i now know is narcissism, and certainly a lot of drinking, to a disruptive level. I threw myself into learning all i could about drinking/alcoholism so that i could 'help' him. I even went to al anon to learn how to 'help' him. For 'help' read 'control' as that's what i really wanted. I thought it was for me to fix. I was full of fear of things kicking off and that made me want control.

But at al anon I quickly learned that it wasn't my business what was going on in his head, he could only ever get better when it is totally his responsbility, and my job was to live my life and make me happy.

I know alcoholism and PD are two different things (though often happen together i think) but reading people's posts sometimes reminds me of me trying to 'fix' things by reading, learning etc and trying to apply what i'd learned.

I know now that I was just making it worse.

Not sure if this is making any sense, but i think what i'm trying to say is, lets not forget to live our lives too.

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SDK1963

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2012, 01:57:19 PM »
Amen to that, Greyhound ! A necessary reminder, for sure !

And a question for you, Gary ... I'm realizing, once again, that part of the reason that I fall into the 'what PD's do' trap is that I still can't figure out what PD my h has ... and although I know that 'it doesn't really matter' and have understood the whole 'co-morbid' concept ... it still is a hurdle that I still can't get over.  Although I know that my unNPD mom isn't 'defined' by her PD or more manageble b/c she fits nicely in the diagnostic box, it gives me some comfort to know what I'm dealing with semi-clearly.  Or is it just that with her there's a sort of distance (the same distance, I might add that I find with my unHPD MIL & unBPD SIL) ?  But I see that many here on the forum can 'diagnose' their mates even if they are still 'up close and personal'.  Any thoughts ?

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moglow

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2012, 05:48:15 PM »
Quote from: Reclaimingme
The tough thing is working out which is which so you know what to be concerned about and what needs borders, boundaries or no comment!

Why would you need to know which is which in order to make those determinations?  Would not boundaries apply regardless of the situation?  Is there more of a need to comment (negatively?) or not in one situation rather than another? 

What I'm saying is that boundaries are what separate you from other people - ANY other people.  They're not intended for use in just a PD relationship, but with anyone really.  Otherwise we wander around willy nilly being everyone's doormat, or treating them as ours.
“Nothing exposes our true self more than how we treat each other in the home.”  ~ Joseph B. Wirthlin

Stop Stinkin' Thinkin'!

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Varja

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2012, 05:54:00 PM »
I sometimes wonder, going back to the original post, if there's a danger that we could all get a bit bogged down in trying to work out what's going on with the PD in our life, and kind of forget to live our own life.

Makes perfect sense to me. For me - as it pertained to my BPD mom anyway, all it took to "enlighten" me was reading Stop Walking on Eggshells. No, I'll never have my layman's opinion of her actual dx validated by a mental health professional because she'll never - in a million years - submit to it.

But that's alright - because I don't need it to know that she could be the poster child for this disorder. I've self-validated her dx, and this was enough to open the floodgates that held years upon years of confusing and painful self-doubts. I'll never forget the amazing rush of validation I experienced when I read that book, either. This is something I'd - unknowingly - needed for over fifty years, in order to continue down the path of healing from her abusive parenting.

I'd become stuck along my path, and used too many unhealthy and ineffective coping mechanisms over the years, only to end up right where I started. I was an angry person and I didn't understand why. I managed to reign it in, and even deluded myself into believing I could control it and use it as needed. Like a sidearm in a holster if you will.

I see many victims of failed parenting who are still enslaved by this caustic, destructive -and suppressed emotion, too. This helps me remain forever grateful that I just "happened" onto that amazingly healing and validating book, too. Reeling in tremendous emotional pain and deep suffering after enduring a marathon session of her acid-tongued rage and razor sharp projections - I sat down at the PC and googled "verbal abuse."

That simple search lead me to the rest of my life. It still amazes me and often makes me wonder why - and sometimes even if - I am worthy of being one of the lucky ones. That's why I participate on this forum, because I hope to pay it forward.

In balance, I'm no "fan" of many of the techniques offered, and I disagree with some of the attitudes and conclusions the books authors have drawn. That doesn't really matter because it was as if they'd been watching my own mother as they described the behaviors of those afflicted with BPD. I've since found better books that help define and outline the challenges faced by adult children - because SWOE didn't adequately address them. That's another reason I participate here - because I've realized that there aren't any comprehensive books yet available that fully address the challenges for adult children of BPD moms. I usually learn something new with each post I read, too. I've read tens of thousands over the years.

Perhaps there never will be, either - because there are simply too many variables involved affecting the disorder's manifestation, and also realized within each child's individual experience. I believe the parameters defined as C-PTSD come pretty close to being a "one size fits all" description, though.

Now, that's how the impact of having an assumed diagnosis unfolded in my experience. It allowed the healing to begin after so many long years. It didn't instantly "heal" my emotional wounds - that required both time and hard, hard, work. More than a few very dark nights of the soul, too.

I wasn't constantly exposed to mt BPD mom, either. I bonded with a very kind-hearted and loving grandmother, and still consider her as my "real" mother. I spent as much time as I possibly could with her, and my grandpa during my troubled teen years and sought refuge from BPD mom and her NPD husband. They had their own - deeply troubled child - they were in the process of making crazy, and I wanted no part of that family anyway. As soon as was possible, I got far, far away - and found my partner in life then set about raising my own family.

We've been at it for over thirty-one years, and life has been both rewarding and amazing. We are blessed with two wonderful children - both well adjusted and successful young adults. We must have done something right over the years.

As you may now understand - I was shot-at-and-missed by parents with mental illness. At least that's how I feel, anyway. I took enough damage to understand it, as no one who hasn't experienced it can, but I didn't suffer a fatal blow, either. It has impacted my entire lifetime and it always will. I've also learned that "healing" isn't a destination, anyway - but a journey.

I've suffered some of the same emotions that those who've been enmeshed in romantic relationships with PD's frequently express. Although I have no direct experience with this facet of troubled relationships - I've shared some of the same challenges involved in separating from co-dependent, or enmeshed, relationships. There are more similarities than differences - at least that's my evolving hypothesis, anyway.

I think it can be somewhat harder for an adult child as opposed to someone who enjoyed emotionally balanced parenting - to achieve separation though. Reason being, the victims of abusive parents often lack the same emotional IQ as those who had non-disordered parenting. It's often much easier to keep adult chidren stuck in toxic environments because they usually have no solid core from which to summon the skills necessary to complete the individuation process. These folks have my heart, because but for the grace of God, there go I ...

Then again, there's another common thread that frequently emerges as the stories of those in failed romantic relationships become clearer. Many of these folks stumble through the door of support groups like this one, reeling in tremendous pain and suffering and desperately seek refuge here. As they begin learning about boundaries and self-esteem and how we develope these attributes - many experience an ephipany of sorts, when they realize the reasons they were drawn to these unhealthy relationships partners in the first place. Often, it is deeply rooted in their own upbringing.

If we know what right looks like, and we aren't willing to accept any less in romantic relationships - then we usually cut our losses and move on with our lives. When we don't - and we contort ourselves to please a disordered and abusive partner - the dance of dysfunction begins with enmeshment and co-dependence providing the background music.

The lucky ones end up here - or in therapy. Thus their healing begins.


cross posted with another...
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

~ Bodhipaksa Krishnamurti

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JamesP

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Re: Do PD's Do This
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2012, 02:56:31 AM »
Ever put your life in danger?? My ex wife put my life in danger several times...... She texted while she drove and I told her please that is dangerous you can get us killed and she would say hey I am driving mind your own business! Another time ( I know really,really stupid) she was drinking out of a coffee container filled with alcohol I told her you shouldn't be doing this give me the keys and she said it is my car I can do whatever I want and I weigh more than you do the alcohol is not going to affect me  do not worry about we are almost home anyways.  Is that a PD quality??