Setting boundaries with BPD friend

[acupofcoffeeisallineed]

Hi all, I appreciate this forum so much and have learned a lot from everyones experiences, thank you. I (27) am seeking advice on managing friendship with a BPD person who was my former close friend for a few years (31).

In the last year after dealing with my first split with my BPD friend who thought I suggested a alternative location to meet with our friendship group was a way of excluding her (it wasnt) I started walking on eggshells around her. Following this, she caused massive drama caused to a few other people that I know (not in this friendship group) which has lead me to feeling emotionally distant. She ended up breaking girl code with these other people.

 

Despite trying to keep some emotional distance and citing my busy schedule due to work and study, my friend keeps wanting to have "conflict resolution" talks about our friendship and about my emotional distance and how it is not meeting her needs. We still catchup one on one outside of the friendship group and message but less frequently. I have told her I am not interested in having these talks however she still tries to push me into talking.

 

However, when we have had these talks about our friendship in the last year have usually end with her criticizing, getting angry at me, or blaming me which is taking a toll on my mental health. It has lead me to avoid having such talks. I'm looking for advice on how to handle these conversations and set boundaries as I want to protect myself while still being part of our shared friend group. I am wondering if I let her know I am not interested in talking as a way of setting boundaries? Or should I keep delaying the need to talk without saying why? Or should I just give in and talk to her?

 

I dont have family here so distancing myself from this shared friendship group where the BPD friend is in isnt an option. I have spoken to one friend in the group but want to keep this matter private as I think thats the kindest approach. Thankfully, her upcoming move to the midwest in September might make things easier for me. I am interested in maintaining a friendship but one that is less close.

 

Looking for advice or anecdotes, as I would highly appreciate that, thank you again everyone.

[notrightinthehead]

First of all Welcome! Take a look at the Toolbox, you will find some useful strategies there you can implement when dealing with the PD in your life.

You sound like you have a healthy approach to this difficult friend. You are right, you don't have to get into conflict resolution talks, just because the other person pushes. In your experience these talks have not resolved the conflict in a satisfactory manner for both sides but rather have given your friend an opportunity to berate you. Why should you stick around for that?  It's better to allow your friend to deal with her frustrations herself.

The boundary you can set is pretty much what you are doing now. You can avoid having the talks altogether by not getting into a situation where she can force it on you. Or you can agree to having a conversation and set the framework beforehand- something like, we can talk as long as we both remain calm and polite and we both can speak in turn. You can put a time limit on how long you are willing to listen. However, you must be prepared to then walk away if your boundaries are not respected or ridiculed.

Ask yourself- is this friend important enough for you to get into such a talk with her? Does she bring enough good into your life for you to want to have her in your life?

I recently pulled away from a friend who would talk 90% of the time we spent together. I rarely was allowed to finish a sentence before she cut in again. I tend to listen more and talk less normally, but with her I started to resent the way she treated me. And she had the right solution for all my problems and knew better than I what I should do. So I did a fade-away.

As others in this group are important to you, I would attempt to strengthen the bonds with others from the friendship group, people who are easier to get along with. And I would put effort into expanding my social circle outside this group too.

I think you are doing the right thing, not to talk about her with others, gossiping about others can make us feel connected but often leaves a bad taste. However, you might find that others have similar experiences with this person.

Maybe your best bet would be to medium chill it with her until September.

[Rebel13]

Hi cup of coffee!

From what you said, you sound pretty clear that you don't want to have the friendship conversation with this person. A lot of well- meaning, conscientious people think that we have to keep explaining our boundaries to people who keep trying to violate them -- after all, WE wouldn't do what they're doing, so it must be that they don't UNDERSTAND our limits and if they did, they would stop!

Unfortunately not everyone in the world operates in this way. Some people want what they want and don't care what others want. When it's clear this is what you're dealing with, the boundary doesn't have to be stated, negotiated, explained, discussed, or acknowledged in any way. If you don't want to have the conversation, you just. don't. have. the. conversation. If your friend asks you to, you can say, "No thanks." If she asks why not, you can say, "Because I don't want to," and walk away. If she keeps texting or otherwise contacting you about it, you can ignore or block her. The blogger Captain Awkward has tons of posts about friendships, managing them, ending them, etc., including scripts that help in dealing with difficult people.

Gray rock/medium chill are also really useful suggestions when you have to be in the same place as this person in order to hang out with your other friends. And hopefully she will move away and be out of your hair at the end of the summer!  Good luck with this.

[moglow]

my friend keeps wanting to have "conflict resolution" talks about our friendship and about my emotional distance and how it is not meeting her needs. We still catchup one on one outside of the friendship group and message but less frequently. I have told her I am not interested in having these talks however she still tries to push me into talking.

Maybe it's just me but if it's necessary to keep having conflict resolution talks about your friendship, it's not such a fulfilling friendship for either of you. It's not meeting her needs? Okay, well, all this certainly isn't meeting yours either. And really, are friendships all about meeting someone else's needs [if we even know what those are] or about finding space between us where we mesh and are there for each other? Why can't we accept each other in our ups and downs without a whole heap of demands that we fix something that may actually not be broken at all. Some people are more demanding or needy than others, and she may be one of those - that doesn't make it yours to take on.

What about something like: "Melanie, I've told you I'm not interested in having those conflict resolution talks. Nothing seems to get resolved and life's just too short for all that drama. People won't always be on the same page, and that's okay. We don't have to be in lockstep. If we can't enjoy the friendship as is, maybe we need to just be friendly and carry on. Really, I'm more than okay with that." And if she comes back with more wanting to talk it out, the answer is still no, just like you said before.

[Rebel13]

Maybe it's just me but if it's necessary to keep having conflict resolution talks about your friendship, it's not such a fulfilling friendship for either of you.

LOL, so true moglow!  No reason to keep negotiating a relationship you don't even want to be in! I got tied up in knots like this so many times over the years, worrying about being fair, being kind, what the other person deserved, and, I think subconsciously, what the fallout would be if I really asserted myself. The last few years I've really learned I don't owe anyone my time, attention, and care, especially if they are not returning the favor at least in kind. I can be polite and calm and just decline to engage. Drama kings and queens seem to hate the lack of uptake on their provocations and go seek their supply elsewhere, leaving me in peace.

[walking on broken glass]

I agree with everyone above!
You know how you feel about this friendship, now it's time to act accordingly. Be polite but firm, and if she still pushes for a conversation, walk away. If she gets upset, that's her problem. You are not being mean to her, you are just protesting yourself and reinforcing boundaries that you have already communicated to her. She is the aggressor here.

[acupofcoffeeisallineed]

First of all Welcome! Take a look at the Toolbox, you will find some useful strategies there you can implement when dealing with the PD in your life.

You sound like you have a healthy approach to this difficult friend. You are right, you don't have to get into conflict resolution talks, just because the other person pushes. In your experience these talks have not resolved the conflict in a satisfactory manner for both sides but rather have given your friend an opportunity to berate you. Why should you stick around for that?  It's better to allow your friend to deal with her frustrations herself.

The boundary you can set is pretty much what you are doing now. You can avoid having the talks altogether by not getting into a situation where she can force it on you. Or you can agree to having a conversation and set the framework beforehand- something like, we can talk as long as we both remain calm and polite and we both can speak in turn. You can put a time limit on how long you are willing to listen. However, you must be prepared to then walk away if your boundaries are not respected or ridiculed.

Ask yourself- is this friend important enough for you to get into such a talk with her? Does she bring enough good into your life for you to want to have her in your life?

I recently pulled away from a friend who would talk 90% of the time we spent together. I rarely was allowed to finish a sentence before she cut in again. I tend to listen more and talk less normally, but with her I started to resent the way she treated me. And she had the right solution for all my problems and knew better than I what I should do. So I did a fade-away.

As others in this group are important to you, I would attempt to strengthen the bonds with others from the friendship group, people who are easier to get along with. And I would put effort into expanding my social circle outside this group too.

I think you are doing the right thing, not to talk about her with others, gossiping about others can make us feel connected but often leaves a bad taste. However, you might find that others have similar experiences with this person.

Maybe your best bet would be to medium chill it with her until September.

Hi notrightinthehead, I wanted to sincerely thank you for your thoughtful reply, I really appreciate it. I had a look at the Toolbox that you had suggested too, thank you for that.

It is nice to have validation that I am already undergoing with setting boundaries by not having these talks altogether with this friend. My mental health is not that great and when I have had these talks/check ins with my friend it just feels like my mental health plummets even more.

I think that is a good question to ask - whether the friendship is important to me or not. It is important to me for us to remain friends but not important to me for us to be close friends. I mentally demoted her and am happy with us being less close friends.

It is understandable that you pulled away from that friend, it sounds like it was emotionally draining for you. It seems like a fade away was the right approach to take.

I will strengthen my bonds wit other friends in this group and outside of this group. And I agree that medium chill until she leaves is the best approach.

I am wondering if she asks to have a talk again (which is likely) should I be direct and tell her that I do not have capacity for indepth conversations at all? Recently when she has asked for these talks/check ins what I have been doing is telling her that I currently dont have capacity due to work and study but will let her know when that changes. I am thinking maybe I have to tell her that this is not going to change for me. I am wondering as well if I should wait for her to ask me for this talk again or be the one to initiate that boundary clearly. She usually asks me for these talks or check ins on our friendship via text. I am happy to keep blaming my lack of capacity, I dont have the energy to be honest with her about her behaviour.

[acupofcoffeeisallineed]

Hi cup of coffee!

From what you said, you sound pretty clear that you don't want to have the friendship conversation with this person. A lot of well- meaning, conscientious people think that we have to keep explaining our boundaries to people who keep trying to violate them -- after all, WE wouldn't do what they're doing, so it must be that they don't UNDERSTAND our limits and if they did, they would stop!

Unfortunately not everyone in the world operates in this way. Some people want what they want and don't care what others want. When it's clear this is what you're dealing with, the boundary doesn't have to be stated, negotiated, explained, discussed, or acknowledged in any way. If you don't want to have the conversation, you just. don't. have. the. conversation. If your friend asks you to, you can say, "No thanks." If she asks why not, you can say, "Because I don't want to," and walk away. If she keeps texting or otherwise contacting you about it, you can ignore or block her. The blogger Captain Awkward has tons of posts about friendships, managing them, ending them, etc., including scripts that help in dealing with difficult people.

Gray rock/medium chill are also really useful suggestions when you have to be in the same place as this person in order to hang out with your other friends. And hopefully she will move away and be out of your hair at the end of the summer!  Good luck with this.

Hi Rebel13, thank you for your thoughtful response to my post, I really appreciate it. I think it is helpful learning that not everyone operates in the way where boundaries are respected. My friend keeps pushing to want to have these talks/check ins because she feels that I am not meeting her needs. But meeting her needs would require me to get involved in her constant drama with others, and to rescue her from thar drama. I dont think I can meet her needs.

Its helpful to know that when I set boundaries they dont have be restated, negotiated, explained, discussed or acknowledged again. In my mind it feels like she is not understanding my limits (like you said) when I agree with you, I think she is pushing me into getting what she wants from me which makes me feel sad, as I would not push others.

When my friend asks me to have these talks/check ins its typically via text. It is helpful to know I can state my boundary clearly and say "because I don't want to". I will give that a try. What I have done before is just blame my lack of capacity to have indepth conversations due to work and study, but will let her know when that changes (which it wont change for me but I was hoping she would get the hint?). But I have said that to her twice now. If she asks again I will be more clear and do not have to explain myself. 

Thank you for recommending me the Captain Awkward blog, I will give that a read.

[acupofcoffeeisallineed]

my friend keeps wanting to have "conflict resolution" talks about our friendship and about my emotional distance and how it is not meeting her needs. We still catchup one on one outside of the friendship group and message but less frequently. I have told her I am not interested in having these talks however she still tries to push me into talking.

Maybe it's just me but if it's necessary to keep having conflict resolution talks about your friendship, it's not such a fulfilling friendship for either of you. It's not meeting her needs? Okay, well, all this certainly isn't meeting yours either. And really, are friendships all about meeting someone else's needs [if we even know what those are] or about finding space between us where we mesh and are there for each other? Why can't we accept each other in our ups and downs without a whole heap of demands that we fix something that may actually not be broken at all. Some people are more demanding or needy than others, and she may be one of those - that doesn't make it yours to take on.

What about something like: "Melanie, I've told you I'm not interested in having those conflict resolution talks. Nothing seems to get resolved and life's just too short for all that drama. People won't always be on the same page, and that's okay. We don't have to be in lockstep. If we can't enjoy the friendship as is, maybe we need to just be friendly and carry on. Really, I'm more than okay with that." And if she comes back with more wanting to talk it out, the answer is still no, just like you said before.

Hi Moglow, thank you for your perspective on this situation with my friend, I really appreciate it.

I agree on your definition about accepting friends in our ups and downs. I think I approach friendship in this way but I do not think my friend with BPD does. She can be demanding and critical towards me in a way that does not make logical sense. An example is that in my distancing from her I stopped hanging out with her over drinks (she does not drink) and instead want try to hangout with her doing nonalcoholic activities during the day. In our last conflict resolution she brought up this change in the way that we hang out and critiqued me for this, saying she wants to hangout for drinks. This critique didnt make sense to me as she is not a drinker and we are still spending time with eachother. I do not feel comfortable drinking by myself whilst she remains sober during a hangout. 

I like your line about the demands to fix something that may actually not be broken at all. I think her demands to want to fix this have pushed me away and I dont think I will want to be close again to her. She has high needs/expectations in a friendship and as I heal my codependent tendencies I do not think I can no longer meet those high needs/expectations. I really hope she can get those needs met by someone else or elsewhere as I cannot do that for her anymore. That does not mean that I am not interested in a friendship with her. I would like to maintain our friendship but be less close.

Thank you as well for providing that example of what I could say to her to set boundaries around not wanting these talks anymore. I find them to be draining. I feel that she may ask me that again, so it is helpful having an example.

[acupofcoffeeisallineed]

Maybe it's just me but if it's necessary to keep having conflict resolution talks about your friendship, it's not such a fulfilling friendship for either of you.

LOL, so true moglow!  No reason to keep negotiating a relationship you don't even want to be in! I got tied up in knots like this so many times over the years, worrying about being fair, being kind, what the other person deserved, and, I think subconsciously, what the fallout would be if I really asserted myself. The last few years I've really learned I don't owe anyone my time, attention, and care, especially if they are not returning the favor at least in kind. I can be polite and calm and just decline to engage. Drama kings and queens seem to hate the lack of uptake on their provocations and go seek their supply elsewhere, leaving me in peace.

Hi again Rebel13, thank you for this reply too. I was wondering a bit more about how you went with asserting yourself with people who start drama. I can really related to getting tied up in knots (which is how I feel right now) and worrying constantly about being kind and fair to others.

This friend of mine has tried provoking me in different ways. The drama that she caused was breaking girl code with my friends. She needs a lot of external validaiton from others and is happy to throw friendships under the bus to go on a date with someone. One of my friends spoke with her about her tendency to break girlcode and my friend with BPD apologized and said she learned from this mistake. However, she ended up breaking girlcode with me shortly after. This is whilst she was wanting these conflict resolution talks with me. I feel like she is trying to start a fight but I am not a fighter, harmonious relationships are important to me and this is the first toxic friendship I have been in and I am almost 30.

Thanks again Rebel13  

[acupofcoffeeisallineed]

H

I agree with everyone above!
You know how you feel about this friendship, now it's time to act accordingly. Be polite but firm, and if she still pushes for a conversation, walk away. If she gets upset, that's her problem. You are not being mean to her, you are just protesting yourself and reinforcing boundaries that you have already communicated to her. She is the aggressor here.

Hi walking on broken glass, I really appreciate your reply, thank you. It is helpful to know I should be firm but also polite. And that I am just protecting myself as well, and that if she gets upset that is her responsibility to deal with. Thanks again.

[moglow]

Okay now I'm curious ... how many of these resolution talks have there been?? You mention "the last time" and that makes me think there have been several. Surely not? If so I can even more understand your distaste. I mean, what's the purpose? Friends don't and won't always agree on everything. I say something that hits you wrong? Tell me. We can talk it out or it's just a statement so I'm aware. I apologize and we carry on. I'm not fulfilling your needs? Ummm, not sure what to do with that to be honest. What are those needs and are they mine to fulfill?

But scheduling repeated conflict resolution discussions? No ma'am. I'll have to decline. If we have that much conflict we're probably not actually friends and may need to look at that instead. It's okay, not everyone is.

[Rebel13]

Hi again Rebel13, thank you for this reply too. I was wondering a bit more about how you went with asserting yourself with people who start drama.

Hi again coffee-for-short!

Please know that it has taken me YEARS to get to the point I am at now with friendships, so please be very gentle with yourself about all this. It is so clear, from what you have written, that you are doing your utmost to be a kind, conscientious, good friend to "Melanie" (lol moglow), and she is not treating you with the same respect and consideration. Her behavior is squarely on her, not you.

I think you said it perfectly here, you just need a reframe:  "She has high needs/expectations in a friendship and as I heal my codependent tendencies I ... think I can no longer meet those high needs/expectations. I really hope she can get those needs met by someone else or elsewhere as I cannot do that for her anymore. That does not mean that I am not interested in a friendship with her. I would like to maintain our friendship but be less close."

So let me reframe! When she brings the topic up again, you can say, "'Melanie', I've been thinking about this, and I don't want as close a friendship as you do. I'd be glad to interact with you socially but I'm really not up for a close friendship, and I hope you can find what you're looking for with someone else." If she persists, repeat as needed, say "excuse me" and walk away, or whatever you need to do to stay firm in your boundary. You don't have to be mean or mad, you can even say, "I wish you the best," and show that you're sad or sorry for hurting her feelings. But if it's the right decision for you, that's the decision you get to make.

In the more general sense, the old saying "an ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure" is applicable for these kinds of relationships -- avoiding getting into them in the first place is the best way!

Here's a great quote from ChumpLady about this:
"Any two people are going to experience some conflict at some point. So when those issues arise, watch what happens next. If you enforce a boundary — how does this person react? Do you get the three channels of mindfuckery? Rage, charm, or self-pity? Or is this person capable of self-reflection? Most important, do they care if they hurt you? Do they want to please you? Does the relationship feel reciprocal?"

Because of my upbringing (codependent is one good way I could describe myself too!), it took me a long time to learn to spot these dynamics. I watched a video today where the speaker said something like, "If you were trained to overfunction, when you meet someone who isn't coping with their life well, you see it as an invitation for you to step in and overfunction to fix their problems." Oh my goodness isn't that the truth! I had to learn to proceed slowly with new people, to give the red flags time to emerge. I tried a couple of times, when I was younger, in pretty big, self-sacrificing, life-disrupting ways to help people I barely knew who were in crisis, and those situations did not end well.

The biggest red flag for me now, is when someone only talks about themselves and/or never asks anything about me. This is getting harder, because overall I think it's more and more acceptable for people to be self-absorbed, at least in the US. But I watch for that, and when I see it, or even think I see it, I take a step back and slow down the progress of the relationship. If I'm wrong, there's no harm done and the friendship can proceed slowly. But if I'm right, it's so nice to dodge the bullets instead of having to extricate myself from someone who only wants to use me for attention or whatever other personal needs they have.