Too much too late

[hhaw]

There will be more lies, more chaos and confusion will multiply if the stbx is in charge of timeline and what happens next.

Getting out in front of that might still be possible.  Maybe not.

[escapingman]

Currently listening through "Cloce encounters of the worst kind" written by Randi Fendi. This might honestly be one of the best books written in history, at least for where I am in my process. The book explain the abuse and what is going on with such accuracy I am getting so validated. I am really starting to feel like I am going to take her on, she will try to take me down and leave me with nothing. So why should I not do the same? I tried to protect STBX but not anymore. She declared war, she will get it.

[hhaw]

Don't be surprised if stbx gets everything she asks for then refuses to settle and asks for more, then more then more till you're forced into a trial to it.

That's why I said to lean into a trial early on, as quickly as you can.     

It's typically the quickest way out if divorce with a PD, IME

[escapingman]

Don't be surprised if stbx gets everything she asks for then refuses to settle and asks for more, then more then more till you're forced into a trial to it.

That's why I said to lean into a trial early on, as quickly as you can.     

It's typically the quickest way out if divorce with a PD, IME

The thing hhaw, is that I have changed since this started. I am no longer protecting her, I can see clearly and I am not hesitating going to the police again, but not for abusing me but the kids.

[hhaw]

You were focused on waiting for the STBX to accept or reject the divorce for.....what?  A month?  Two?  Three?  Longer? It seemed so important at the time.  To wait.  For that decision.  From the stbx.

Divorcing a harmful PD can feel like having tunnel vision, IME.  The PD waves a hand up high so your eyes move there.  Meanwhile, the PD is doing other things down low, or behind you, but you're so focused on that waving hand, likely bc you've been tuning into people your whole life, so you're not even aware you're doing it.

And that's your default setting.  How long does it take to change that default?

I think everyone has a different timeline for snapping out of that trance, if they snap out of it.  The point where one knows and accepts all norms and familiar things are unsafe and dangerous, particularly to the children involved.....and that's a very difficult pill to swallow and keep down with so many dauntingly terrifying realities we helped build when we protected and enabled and hid from view what is now imperative to prove/explain/attempt to square up for people who don't understand how the frog in the pot ends up in boiling water, jumps, but is overwhelmed, bc bc bc
the children are still IN the pot....
the PD is sometimes STILL the person we needed them to be.....safe....at the very least ,..safe, but they aren't.  They never will be but that goes in and out if focus.  The divorce process is brutal and long and expensive and traumatic and crushes the children in the already boiling pot!  How can one think clearly, for heaven's sake!?!?

And staying with the PD so long makes explaining the story more difficult, bc everyone lies in divorce court.....everyone questions intentions and motives and assumes exaggerated stories, if not wholesale lies from both litigants.

And now you aren't protecting the PD and she wants all your money and you're talking about that.....money.

You have to try to see it like outsiders see it.  Outsiders know abuse and harm to children is wrong and bad and should be a line in the sand....a priority, but you've talked about how your PD terrorizes you ( using the children)...you talk about the PD bothering and controlling you while you're working and controls you or attempts to control you and you're waiting for her to tell you what you should do while waiting is exactly what she needs you to do and maybe you aren't as ready to change things as you believe you are and that's not a judgment.....I think it's how people come out of trances.  In increments, more or less slowly.  Many years into the woods....many years out, but there have to be limits and everyone will see those limits and lines differently, IME.  Everyone.

Maybe you can't even fathom what that would look like?  To act with single minded focus with one thing in mind.  Maybe that kind of change will be a reverse frog in boiling water, bc IME there are many moving pieces to leaving a toxic PD willing to lie, cheat and steal while you follow every rule, tell the exact truth and wait for the PD to inform your next move or decision or game plan.

Waiting is what you've always done and IME your children will be in high school before you've settled the divorce, the custody, the money, the visitation,who gets this and that candy dish and maybe a trial or two ....three? 

The longer you wait to hold the PD accountable for everything they've done
creates  more chaos and confusion you help the PD spin around everything and there was only ever one real issue, imo ......the violence and abuse, particularly regarding the children who never had any choices.   The children are hostages in this.  You, as an adult, had choices or could have if you could have seen your stbx with clarity, but here you are...  Talking about money and a whiney stbx asking to keep the family together....professing love for you and WE understand how creepy that is, but outsiders won't. 

You're likely now going to have to allow harm to your children so you can prove harm to them before you can stop it....
where you perhaps co uld have skipped that had you filed charges up front for past violent behavior your stbx committed, but that seemed impossible early on.  It does for the majority of spouses suffering abuse.

I guess I'm saying I agree with too little too late, EM...not protecting your stbx is too little too late from where I'm standing and that's just my opinion.  Not law or particularly important, so don't get upset reading it.  It's my story, in my head ...not necessarily your reality.

I refused to file charges against my PD too, btw....then it was too late, or so  I was told by my attorney.

I had to allow harm to my children to prove it, then stop it.  You're a kind of hostage too, bc you can't see you have choices....you do and you always have as an adult, but it's almost impossible to see it, IME.  How can one act when one can't even see the moving pieces all at once? 

That's the spell we believe, IME.  That we have to wait, tell strict truths and follow every rule while the PDs splash around the justice system with impunity and very rare consequences, if any.....and it's difficult to see what part one plays in it till it's spiraled well out of control and runs it's messy course.

Why we build and stay in these terrible traps is the stuff we figure out in T sessions, IME.

Your stbx will fight tooth and nail against your children getting T.  She'll sabotage anything you manage to put in place, maybe poison the GC against the idea of it......so ya.  Maybe the time to mitigate harm has passed, EM.

All that evidence against the stbx and no way to use it. Right?  That's what the police and your attorney told you, right?  Because you waited and there haven't been any recent assaults, right?

I still don't understand it, but I know we  sabotage ourselves and can't see it till way too late to reverse it, IME.

You're not protecting the stbx anymore.  At this point.  After all she's done and is doing to your children.... I'm afraid for your children....that's too little, too late. 

I hope I'm wrong.  I hope you get the evidence you need and use it.  I truly do but I think it's a kind of learned helplessness.  I think we believe a narrative around having to wait and not being able to act and bring change into our lives and it hurts us and slows the progress we identify as what we need.

So..... unconscious beliefs are at work and we can't see them till we're out the other end, most times.

[escapingman]

hhaw, thanks for your feeback altough I feel you are kicking on someone laying down.

I am not going to defend myself, I have spent way to much of my life defending myself. I did not intend to marry a PD, nor did I intend to divorce one. I have been and still am paralysed at some aspects. If I look at my progress I think I have done way better than I expected, but of course I could have done better. I am not just waiting for her to decide to cause havoc, I have to wait for the solicitors and the courts and follow the process. I can't rush that however much I want to. I had to wait for STBX to reply to the court if she was going to defend the divorce or accept it, without that I could not progress. Right now my solicitor is strongly recommending me to stay in the house (or at least not get a new address) until we can get a deal regarding finances and children. If I move out without this I risk both as then she will have zero motivation to agree to anything as she is still in the house with the children and I am out. Also, I prefer to not have STBX be removed by police in front of the kids with them blaming me for their mum being taken away. I don't want her to cause any harm to the children, I am not baiting her to do so, but if she does it is certainly not my fault - I cannot control her actions and behaviours. But I am sure she got the warning from my solicitor by now, cause when I came home GC gave me a big hug and STBX smiled and smirked. All for show, but this has worked before for her so no doubt she think I believe she is now going to be nice as pie.

Forgive me for not getting a phd in living and divorcing a PD.

[JustKeepTrying]

EM,

I'm sorry you feel like we are kicking you when your down.  I feel your pain and anger and anguish when I read your posts and there are times I find them quite traumatic.  I lived through it and it is hard to read it everyday when you post.  But that is my problem not yours.  You need to post in a safe environment and we need to tell you we hear you, we see you and we are supporting you in our invisible, yet tangible way. 

I have to tell myself that it has only been a few months since you filed and it took my ex quite some time to respond and get his act together.  From start to finish it was seven months.  I think that is about average here in the states for most middle class marriages with average debt/income.

This is also the time that real physical harm occurs which is why there are so many of us afraid for you.  Your situation is scary and quite frightening.  i hope that have conveyed that to a lawyer.  Do not underestimate that side of things. Yes you are a man and most likely stronger but a PD is not thinking right so please please please be careful.

I guess I don't understand why you can't take the girls with you and leave.  It shouldn't matter that you are a man - you are still the biological parent.  But I know laws are different in different places.

Please know we support you and we got you.

[escapingman]

I am sorry if my posts are triggering to you JKT, but this is really my only place to vent.

The reason I am not moving out and just taking the kids are that I don't think I can do that. GC would not come with me, and if I got SG with me I would probably be accused for kidnapping, or even worse blamed for only caring for SG and losing GC completely. I am also very worried about the escalation as soon as STBX really understand she has lost and I am out. She is still fighting me on 2 fronts, one through the solicitors where I am a bad bad one, and one at home where all she wants is for us to be best of friends. I is really killing me to see how she can hate me with her left hand and "love" me with her right hand.

We just started the financial talks, and she think she is entitled to it all, and some more. I am not surprised but I wonder if this entitlement will blow up in her face? Everything I have put into the joint bank accounts are to share, everything she has put in is hers. However, finances is my least problem as my main focus is the kids, but I can't let her bleed my dry just because I care more about the kids.

She is playing a game of chess with me, only way to beat her is to play it as well but better.

[square]

I'm in no position to offer legal advice, but what you described about having to stay in the home makes sense to me. I know leaving can be seen as abandonment and imply you are a secondary parent, and taking the kids can be seen as kidnapping, and the specific situation with GC complicates things even further.

I hope that something like an initial or temporary order can happen so you don't have to wait for the whole divorce to be finalized.

[JustKeepTrying]

EM - my post in no way was an admonishment but intended to offer you support.  JKT

[escapingman]

JKT - I know, but maybe I need to be less specific in my posts if it trigger people?

Square - Thanks, I wish I could move out tomorrow with the kids but at the moment I can't.

I had a very mature and hearth breaking conversation with SG yesterday. She think she knows what's going on and wants to know more details. I so want to tell her exactly but I can't, I know she in any moment could tell STBX as she knows throwing me under a bus buys her temporary love from STBX. But I am almost 100% sure she would come with me if it was her choice, she tells me how fed up she is with being shouted at and ignored and the rest. I am trying to keep her out the house as much as possible, doing activities, GC is always invited but refuses to come. SG has invited a friend to the house, she has lots of friends and I am encouraging her all the time to have friends, I do the same to GC but she only want to stay at home with STBX. GC started shouting at SG for inviting this friend, she is to messy apparently and could mess the house up. Both SG and GC have been invited to this friend several times and GC always tries to find reasons to stay at home, the friends dad knows I am struggling to get GC out the house (he does not know the story) and is always trying to include GC when the friends are going to meet up. I am worried things might get tense when this friend comes over, not sure if I should try to defuse the situation and take them out somewhere, or let GC and STBX panic that someone is coming into "their kingdom". I am sure the mask won't slip whilst the friend is here, but it will be rage before as the entire house needs cleaning and be perfect when anyone comes to visit.

[escapingman]

I found this very hard now, very hard, the two faced game STBX is playing. She is pretending to be nice to my face, she expects me to pay for an provide her with streaming services, still give her money for her to spend as she wish. At the same time, she is trying to take me to the cleaner through her solicitor, she is asking for everything and some more, already shown her card that she is going to tell the court she is the victim and I have caused her to be depressed. At home, she washes up all her dishes, but she leave my coffee cup unwashed. She has stopped washing my clothes, but I am not allowed to use "her" washing machine. I can't even look at her, I feel physically sick when she is in the same room, listening to her voice makes me want to vomit.  So she claims to me that she want us to stay together and all this will stop if I just change my mind. To me, if you want someone to change their mind and you have been at fault, you be nice to them and not try to threaten them and make their life miserable to change their mind. 

I am going crazy with this.

[JustKeepTrying]

EM -  you keep posting.   I can tell it's helping you get through this.  Don't worry about it - it's my problem not yours. 

Please get the girls into therapy as soon as you can.  They will benefit from a source outside of school, friends and family to whom they can share and lean on.   It has been a tremendous support to my son.

I am going to encourage you to understand the law in this part of the divorce process.  For me, here in my state, in the US, it's 50/50 everything brought into the marriage unless it was like an inheritance specified for me.  If you understand this, you don't need to share it, then things like washing machines become a mute point.  Do your clothes.  Just look at her in silence and keep being you.

Post post post.  We are here for you.

[hhaw]

I used to throw up in my mouth when forced to spend time with stbx during this time in our divorce, EM.

I can honestly say you don't have any good choices and won't for a while.

Your children are being harmed every day whether you have the stbx removed by the police or not. 

IF she's vremoved you'll at least be validated with the children and courts that the stbx IS the one doing the harm AND finally suffering the logical consequences of her actions AND treatment becomes possible for the children AND the stbx.

I've lived the game you're forced to play and letting the stbx lead was catastrophic for both our families.

I'm hoping you can gut through to a better outcome and YES it would mean you're making impossible to fathom difficult choices you never felt you'd have the strength to make.  YES it means choosing something harmful to your children, but they're already in harm's way, living in trauma..... it becomes a matter of mitigating harm and releasing your expectations for protecting your children.

That ship sailed and now you're plotting a course to a new land......and it's a distant land, but a real place you have to
plot a course for and sail through storms and hurricanes and sea monsters with the girls tied to the mast but sail you must to get to that f we safe land.

Or not.

The course the courts and stbx are sailing requires you do as you're told and accept the rules.....you playing fair, keeping your trauma and truth in check while the stbx lies, cheats, steals and harms all of your family basically unchecked.

Changing that would take a tremendous act of courage and trusting you can get the girls therapy and support to help them understand their abusive  mother's behaviors aren't normal or something anyone can get away with....there are consequences and maybe it would be best if your T makes that call for you, EM.

I aire your strength and know how it ebbs and flows.  Please begin radical self care measures and release expectation....do what you can today ( every day) and release the worry.

Find good Ts from r the children....have them lined up.  Your T should have had that in place by now and you haven't said what the domestic abuse people are saying lately.  Talk to them.  Maybe take SG and GO TO THEM and stay there to feel safe and find support and SHOW the courts what you and the children are suffering with for God's sake what is your T saying?

And you speak as plainly as you need to EM.  I'm not triggered.  I see with clarity and strength I send to you through this forum..... Make a good plan, include as many advocates and systems as you can, ask for help and execute your good plan....stuck to it when things go dark, lean on your supporters....they will help you stay or get grounded as needed but don't think your attorney is giving you the best advice.  Your attorney is a tool and you have the power to weild her

In closing.....this is going to be a sh+t show, EM.  Will it all fall on you and the girls or will it not,?

That's the question.

I believe in you.  Please know in your heart you can do this and stop doubting bc the girls need you. 

And final thought....stop paying attention to ANYTHING the stbx says please fir the love of God.....the courts are going to decide who gets what and who's abusive and who gets control of the kids so keep doing trial prep and crack on towards trial.

Have your shortlist of must haves on your settlement discussion page, join in shirt discussions about settling in gen break off discussions when stbx and refuses your very short and reasonable list you've based on the best interest of the children and end this divorce suffering so you can build a better life and model something better for your children, EM.

I realize I lied to you when I said aI wasn't triggered.  I am when I read you're under the impression you have to wait wait wait for the court and PD.

You don't and you might not internalize that in time to utilize it but I've said it here, for you many times and it's possible, better if it's a good plan and you follow it, IME.

You can break out of this helplessness belief system you've internalized.  The attorneys honor each other and make money off their clients.

You can honor yourself and children first, but always speak to your attorney with a calm polite tone while doing it.

I should have ignored my attorney and asked the court for a protective order instead of staying in the house with my PD....like you.....throwing up in my mouth and feeling my body break down around me.....not know wing how to ask for help and too damn stoic to had I known.

Ask your T and the domestic violence people to help you make a plan, EM.

[escapingman]

Thanks hhaw and JKT

GC needs therapy and she needs it soon. She is completely brainwashed and is bullying SG and me with the backing of STBX. She is now physically entering SG's personal space pushing her and harassing her until she gets a reaction and then run crying to STBX to have her shout at SG. This is completely untenable and yesterday it went so bad I had to intervene, which of course got the result that GC shouted and screamed at me with STBX smirking behind her back. I can see the two of them having a masterplan to get me framed as the bad one and that what is making me so scared of taking the next step. STBX is so convincing when she starts, she really can make people doubt if black really is black and white really is white. I don't know if she has any recordings or anything from when I have been baited in the past before I knew to MC and noJADE. I used to shout back in desperation when I was still in the FOG, I was defending myself and I am not sure if that will or can be used against me. I am sure uNPDmil will be absolutely delighted to join a smear campaign and lite to the police or anyone to get me done.

Yesterday SG asked me if we can go away for Easter just her and me, she told me she wants calm. She recently spent quite a lot of time with a new friend and her parents, I have pushed for this as well, and she has started to see how a normal family works and behaves. She now want's this too. She doesn't want to be bullied by her mum and sister. My hearth is really bleeding because if I fail to rescue her, how can she survive with those 2 bullying her all day long every day?

[hhaw]

Talk
To
Your

T
And
To
The
Domestic
Violence
People
And
Police
And your attorney.


In US I could have asked the court for a protective order, even though my $900.00 an hour attorney told me I wouldn't get one at friggin Christmas.

Document.
Pull the best of your evidence .....
Ask for help.

It's unlikely stbx recorded anything early on. 

Yes, MIL will likely lie with stbxBUT it's not easy to lie consistently without repeating certain phrases and that's what they/ the experts look for when witnesses have been coached, particularly children.

You should have lodged charges sooner but you didn't.  I'm thinking stbx directing GC to assault SG in order to bait you is reason enough to file for past aggressions against you.....ask the domestic violence people and your T, please.

[hhaw]

EM:

Remember to tell your story always with compassion for stbx AND GC when relating THE FACTS YOU CAN PROVE.

Give only the burger......no lettuce, tomato, pickles bun or condiments.  The LARGE facts AND evidence to back them up.

You want to protect your children.

You fear for them both equally as GC's sanctioned aggression towards her special needs sister will likely be as detrimental to GC as it is for SG.

Both children are in harm's way and you're looking for a way to get everyone help, including the stbx, bc
A)  You don't know what's going on to cause her irrational behavior and
B) You're hoping she can sort it out if she gets some support.

Stbx is the mother of your shared daughters and you want peace and good things for her.  It's breaking your heart to watch your family break down under the ( insert strongest facts around Stbx's most toxic behaviors) and it's time to get an expert T involved sooner than later if psych evals are going to happen.

Ask your T for referrals of Ts working in your County Court system who knows the Judges and have clout.

You're going to have to act if you're going to stop what's falling on your DD's heads, IME.

Having stbx admitted for evaluation in hospital if she threatens harm seems like least harmful intervention from where aI stand.  It's you asking for help....not asking to punish stbx.

This follows your narrative.....you COULD have filed charges but didn't bc
( Insert care for stbx and hope for her recovery). 

You never use medical terms....only describe behaviors like you're describing them to a child.

Short. Simple.  Stop talking. Repeat.

Stick to your evidence.  Never describe behaviors you can't prove.

Good luck

[hhaw]

EM:

You're not superman so of course you've lost your temper as your stbx's behaviors escalated in the family..... you're overwhelmed and frightened and at your wit's end which is why you've file divorce.

It's ok to be human and admit it and keep asking for help for the girls....always return back to what's best for the children again and again and again.  It's impossible for people to defeat arguments based on what's best for the children.

So....always refer to stbx with compassion BUT prioritize the children, the harm, the dysfunction you no longer find yourself able to mitigate and so.....
you're asking for any and all relief the Courts, police, hospitals and domestic violence people can offer you.

Where is your attorney in this NOW?  I'd ask for an emergency hearing to STOP the aggression and rages in front of and directed AT the children with GC being directed to aggress against special needs SG who's begging you
FOR
HELP.

[escapingman]

Thanks hhaw.

Typically my T is off sick at the moment and I am waiting for my next appointment, hopefully that won't be to long. For my attorney I will speak to her and make a strategy, STBX is about to paint herself into a corner.

SG is not a special needs girl, but she doesn't need the abuse from her sister backed by her mum. She is spending almost all her time with me or friends at the moment (I am pushing for her to build friendships) and very little time with her mum. But she is still very much in the FOG with her mum and do a lot of things (or more like she doesn't do things) out of guilt. This trip away over Easter she asked me for a couple of days ago, she is very unsure about now as she doesn't want to upset STBX - even though she has told me herself that Easter will be spent rowing and being shouted at. I have told her it is her choice if she want's to go with me or stay with her mum, I can or will not force her. But all I know is that if we all stay and celebrate Easter together it will be a ticking bomb that will explode. I will prevent that with leaving, yes it will hurt to not be with the kids over Easter but that is better than the fighting that will happen.

I think I still suffer a lot from learned helplessness as I struggle to get my act together, it's almost like it feels like it is easier to just sit here and wait for it to get better. But at the end of the day, something will have to happen at some point and I know I need to act. I am just very scared of the full out war that is coming where I will be smeared and accused of all sorts. I am also very worried about having STBX removed as I am so worn down by it all that I am unsure how to cope with the girls on my own, especially as I expect GC to be a real pain and blame me if that happens.

Mentally however, I am getting myself ready for the full out war and that I need to fight for my life and not spare any feelings anymore. I am just shit scared of it.

[Poison Ivy]

Going through a divorce is scary. That you are acknowledging your fear is a good thing. You can survive the process!