Anyone with a sib or other family member who is otherwise pretty great?

LemonLime · July 23, 2022, 07:30:43 PM

Hi All,
Sometimes I just need a check-in re: uPD sib, just so I don't start missing her. Do any of you out there have the mind-scrambling issue of a family member who is actually a normal and nice person 98% of the time and a crazy monster from He&% the other 2% of the time?

I suppose I'm quite lucky that sib and I have had lots of fun and good times over the years. Sure, I'd seen rages (at mom) since she was 12, but they weren't explicitly aimed at me, and I could always sort of see sib's point that mom was being sort of a jerk. So maybe mom and dad "deserved" the rages? And all those people out in the world who are so dumb and incompetent....well, there ARE a lot of silly people in the world so I guess maybe sib convinced me that her self-righteousness was justified.

We truly have had very good times. She has been there for me during a health scare and when all my hair fell out. She was the maid of honor at my wedding.. But when an out-of-the-blue rage turned on me a few years ago.....well, I guess I'd done some maturing that even I didn't know about because I calmly told her "no". No raging at me. And well.......that was a boundary. And she cannot be told of a boundary. Apparently.

After some lovebombing by her that I did not "bite" on, we are VVVVLC. Because.....well, what is there really to say now? No rages are allowed. She has not acknowledged wrongdoing nor apologized, nor promised this will not happen again. What is there really to say? Small talk? That seems silly and I don't think I have the stomach for it.
My daughter is graduating high school and I gave sib an announcement (through mom) and we've heard nothing. No card. Nothing.

This makes me so so sad. And it makes me question my boundary. My kids have lost their aunt, the only one on my side.
But I know that what I'm doing has got to be the healthy thing....right?
Ugh.
Truly no-win. It's like a death.

notrightinthehead · July 24, 2022, 01:23:49 AM

Very strange. So your sister looses it out of the blue, has a temper tantrum, and then does not feel bad about it after- at least doesn't say so? And after she raged at you, you have cut contact. Do you want to re-establish contact? If so, it might need more from your side than an information via your mother that your daughter is graduating. You seem to miss the good times you had with her. Is there any way for you to keep yourself self safe and still be in contact with her? What do you really want? Other than for her to change, which you know is not likely.

LemonLime · July 24, 2022, 10:34:32 AM

Thanks for the reply, notrightinthehead. And for the good questions.

What do I want....as you said, she isn't likely to change. I'm feeling sort of stuck, because I'd like to enjoy her good qualities but I don't think I'm willing to do that with the risk of putting myself in the line of fire again. It feels that if I re-establish contact, with her not acknowledging that "raging is wrong and not OK", then I'm taking the bait. I'm allowing her, once again, to get away with being judge, jury and executioner in any matter that doesn't suit her. She is being given tacit permission to rage when she sees fit (and she has, in the past, excused her rages as "passion" and indicated that the person deserved to be set straight).
Maybe it's partly my ego that rails at being taken as a fool. One who is willing to be abused just to maintain a relationship.

I should have specified that my sib and her spouse live remotely in another country, and getting snail mail to them is close to impossible, so I gave the announcement to my mom to give to her the next time sib visited my parents. Both my family and my sib visit my parents, just at separate times now.

So I think it boils down to the question you poses....is there any way to keep myself safe and still be in contact with her? That's really the question, and I don't know the answer.

feralcat · July 25, 2022, 03:18:51 AM

Hi LemonLime.
I have a sister who sounds very similar to yours. She's always been alternative, and very preachy about issues she's 'passionate' about. Unfortunately that includes trying to ram things down your throat ...... Ironically about things that you ALSO believe in, but in a more reasoned type of way. And she won't stop.

The problem is, I didn't realise how skewed our relationship was getting. She's pretty good at the old love bombing as well. You're just like meeeeee. I was flattered . Yahoo, a FOO member who's actually interested in me !
Until I asked for reciprocal support, and gently asked her to stop ringing me so she could emotionally dump on me. Did she have a think and move onto similar frequency, nicer calls ? Did she hell. After a very snarky text I've heard virtually nothing. Discard !
Tbh I've rolled my eyes and accepted it. It was getting pretty damaging to my self esteem. I don't miss the rants. Bit sad, but if my only use was as a one way sounding board and yes person, then on balance I'll take the silence. Maybe, when my unPdM dies and enabler Sis starts to feel at a bit of a loss, then we'll talk. But it will be on my terms. Not hers. Restart.

If your sis lives at a distance, then you've got time to think. Become your best you, as they say. A new you. When you meet up again, let your demeanour illustrate that. Loving but boundaried. NO is a complete sentence. Took me ages to learn that. It was scary to say. But if she can say it, so can you. Good luck.

LemonLime · July 25, 2022, 10:26:45 AM

Feralcat, thank you so much for your kind words. It really helps to know that you have a similar sib....they sound scarily alike!! Although of course I don't wish that for you.
Yes, the "emotional dumps" are a bit much, aren't they? And the lectures! About, as you say, topics that you actually agree on! It's so strange.
I think their desire to be uniquely passionate about a subject makes them steamroller anyone, even if (and maybe especially?) if that person also feels similarly strongly about a subject. "I'M the MOST passionate!!!"

It's riduculous, and you reminded me that I don't miss that at all. I have been becoming my best me, as you say, and I will continue to do so.
Thank you for the help.

Starboard Song · July 25, 2022, 12:30:35 PM

Quote from: LemonLime on July 24, 2022, 10:34:32 AM
It feels that if I re-establish contact, with her not acknowledging that "raging is wrong and not OK", then I'm taking the bait. I'm allowing her, once again, to get away with being judge, jury and executioner in any matter that doesn't suit her. She is being given tacit permission to rage when she sees fit.

I gotta start by admitting that I am 7 years NC with my in-laws, so I am not categorically opposed to cutting people out. It happens sometimes. But I'd offer a gentle nudge back on this one.

Generally, even very healthy people don't like the formalism of being told they must apologize. Even when someone feels they got carried away and regrets it, it is very common to let it go, and for everyone in their own hearts to promise to do better.

Boundaries are not about controlling the other person or constraining their choices. Boundaries are an expression of what we will or will not do, or engage with. I'd encourage you to have this boundary: you will not listen to or argue with someone who is raging at you. You will politely end the call, conversation, or visit. I wouldn't require anyone to acknowledge they were wrong or make promises going forward.

Resuming contact without such a promise gives her no permission at all: this isn't a game or contract. The very next time she rages, the call, conversation or visit will end promptly. You will NEVER endure such treatment. You can always just DO your boundaries: they don't require prior announcement or acceptance. In the meantime, VVVVLC is a sort of fighting words, even when justified. VVVVLC is bound to make the other party feel rejected: they are being rejected. So slights to do with special occasions and such may possibly be innocent.

That said, if someone becomes destructive of your boundaries, if they make them repeatedly impossible to enforce, if they reliably do you harm and invade your peace: then it is time to take more extreme measures to preserve your peace. VLC and NC are definitely on the table.

Maybe that is where you are with your sister. Maybe this one massive rage against you brought home that whole history you describe. Maybe you are now re-evaluating and realizing how strong her pattern of destruction and rage is. And getting there doesn't make this not hard. You will still miss the good times. You still miss enjoying the times you enjoyed. That's just hard and there is no answer for it. It just sucks.

Good luck in whatever course you choose.

feralcat · July 26, 2022, 02:13:30 AM

Lemon and Starboard, a big YES to both of you.

It's sad. Because it's yet another family member slipping away. And also an illustration of what might happen when you state/ act out your boundaries. As people age, especially when they've not been challenged on unsocial behaviour, that behaviour entrenches. To the point that they can become very isolated. I see that happening across my FOO. They do feel abandoned , but don't/ can't understand why, because few seem to think it's down to them. If that makes sense. E.g. The sister I spoke of diagnoses as ADD, so says her abandonment related issues should be excused. My unPdM is 'old' , or whatever the latest excuse is...etc etc, across the Borg.

(Tbh I've been moreisolated lately, but that's a choice based on my (current, hopefully) Long Covid fatigue , retirement - and a newfound wariness re the type of friendships I tend to get lured into (a frequent topic on this board). So that's in my control, it's up to me to do something to remedy it. I don't feel abandoned. And I also have some latent abandonment issues due to trauma....but now I realise that, I try to bear it in mind. I'm certainly no longer going to try to alleviate them by allowing people to damage my progress Out of the FOG . I will be LC , but I won't let anyone past my 'red line'. Sorry, but not sorry. It's just not fair)

LemonLime · July 29, 2022, 08:48:27 AM

Oh Starboard, you've given me a LOT to think about. I so appreciate the very thoughtful reply, and your honesty about your impressions. I know it's good advice because it makes me a bit uncomfortable

It makes me look at myself, and look at things from her point of view. You're so right....nobody, PD or non-PD, likes to apologize, and for the most part we go through life ignoring our own and others' blunders in terms of not making formal apologies.
And I have most definitely been the beneficiary of not formally apologizing for silly behavior in my past. My friends have been forgiving.

Reading your reply (and feralcat's) did nudge me toward DOING my boundaries rather than announcing them to sib. Just DO them. It's really my ego, I realize, that wants to be acknowledged. I want to "get the last word" of sorts. To "not let her think she gets to control me". But as you say, boundaries don't work like that.

And I can sort of give her another chance, but I won't be the same person giving her a chance that I was before the rage. I am more aware now, and I am a person with BOUNDARIES. I will not tolerate being raged at ever again. And I can control that by not sleeping in the same house, not allowing myself to be alone with her, not being afraid to walk out of the room at any time, even if it appears rude. I will not be in a situation where I have no car and no escape route already planned in advance. So I really can enforce my boundaries.

This gives me some hope that I can have a "relationship" with her, even if it's superficial. That I don't have to sell out in order to do that. It's still scary, but I feel so much more ready now. It's been 3 years of LemonLime working on LemonLime. And I'm so much better for it.

Feralcat, you're right, they always have excuses, don't they? I'm glad you don't feel abandoned. You have good boundaries, and you take responsibility for your choices. They don't. I wish you well and look forward to more posts from you.
Thank you

Frustrated Guy · August 07, 2022, 09:47:51 AM

Lemon LIme I have read your post and the responses. While I can appreciate the other responses, and while they are certainly worth considering. If you expressed your hurt/insult, and the sibling didn't feel the need to explain/ apologize/ or help correct the situation, I dont think that's ok.

Maybe NC is aggressive as a first step but in my experience, these are patterns to watch out for. It sounds like you have identified a situation that if you do resume contact should warrant monitoring so that you do not fall into a cycle of abuse. (I am guilty of that and is a big reason why I caution you against it) If your sibling has changed (for the worse) for whatever reason, they may not be interested in being better, decent, empathetic, or caring toward you any longer.

It sounds like you are trying to consider how to treat a "normal" person, however, it may very well be that the rules of decency you are following are not the same that your sibling is playing by.

LemonLime · August 08, 2022, 01:44:10 PM

Thanks, Frustrated. I completely agree that if I resume any contact it will be Baby Steps. And I know that the most our relationship will ever be is Superficial. And sadly, I suspect that she has no real use for me anymore, since I won't be her Supply. I am currently grappling with that I think.....the fact that I was just an object to her, not a little sister worthy of love. That's what I will be working on with my T now.

Frustrated Guy · August 11, 2022, 06:42:01 AM

Been there. I have worked through failed basic expectations from my narc-sis. All the while doing my best to meet the needs of what I felt was my duty as a brother. I have said that my sister is like a black hole of support and attention.

It's not easy to let go of that but I think it's important to accept that the relationship may just not be what you want or expect.

Good Luck

Starboard Song · August 11, 2022, 07:06:06 AM

Quote from: LemonLime on July 29, 2022, 08:48:27 AM
I can sort of give her another chance, but I won't be the same person giving her a chance that I was before the rage. I am more aware now, and I am a person with BOUNDARIES. I will not tolerate being raged at ever again. And I can control that by not sleeping in the same house, not allowing myself to be alone with her, not being afraid to walk out of the room at any time, even if it appears rude. I will not be in a situation where I have no car and no escape route already planned in advance. So I really can enforce my boundaries.

This gives me some hope that I can have a "relationship" with her, even if it's superficial. That I don't have to sell out in order to do that. It's still scary, but I feel so much more ready now.

Good luck to you. You sound ready. And remember: sometimes there are some people who just won't let this work. They push and violate every single time. And if you end up there it really is ok to just end things. But that has its own costs and pains, and they are significant, and shouldn't be taken on lightly. I wish you the very best. I hope she is responsive.

You take care of yourself. It's your job to do so.