BPD nice waif mom visit. There's always something.

[WinterStar]

I saw nice waif BPD mom this weekend at a neutral location with the kids and my husband, which is the second time I've seen her since the pandemic. It went reasonably well until the end. There's just always something. I had said we would stay for two hours, and when the time was up, I pulled my husband aside and said that I wanted to head out and use the bathroom at a planned stop on the way home. I told my mom we were headed out. My husband asked in front of my mother about using the bathroom, which prompted her to suggest we use it where we were. I ended up agreeing even though I didn't want to. I could feel her emotions begging me to do what she wanted. She was very triumphant once I agreed. I'm frustrated with myself for folding so easily. Again. Her emotions are always the most important ones.

I'm also frustrated with my husband. He says he didn't hear me say anything about using the bathroom on the way home before my mom came over. This kind of poor communication happens a lot. I told him that if he had concerns about a bathroom on the way home, I'd like him to bring it up not in front of my mom. He got really mad. He said he did everything right during the visit, and I still wasn't happy. During the visit, he had kind of a "whatever you want, dear" attitude, which I find really unhelpful. It puts the whole burden of everything on me, which makes the whole thing more exhausting. I've tried to explain this to him, and he says he's being supportive.

I ended up having an extremely emotional reaction to his anger. I was already upset due to the anxiety leading up to the visit and attending the visit. I was tired from driving and dealing with all the challenges that come with traveling with our kids (our kids don't travel well). And I started saying that I just never want to interact with my mom again. The anxiety of planning and anticipating this visit took from the energy I need for other things. And now I'm recovering, and I don't know how long that will take.

I'm reluctant to actually cut off my mom right now. I'm currently at the stage of dealing with unprocessed anger that I wasn't allowed to feel toward my mom. I was only allowed to feel protective of her because of her Sad Life Story. This deferred anger is huge. I'm incredibly angry about all the parentification I had to deal with and that the patterns are still the same even now that I'm a parent. This well of anger is deep and feels bottomless. I'm hoping it's not actually endless, and I'll move through it to a more indifferent mode that will be less arduous. My kids love her, and she's fine as a grandma.

Right now, I'm planning to take a significant break from visits with my mom. Maybe wait until spring. But I just don't know. I don't know how to handle this better or to communicate better with my husband. Any advice or your own stories are very much appreciated.

[SunnyMeadow]

I can see how you folded even though you had a different plan in mind. But think about how many years you've gone along with her plans. It'll take some time to learn your new normal. I try not to beat myself up when I don't do exactly what I thought I'd do when I'm with my mom. It's all Baby Steps for us! The thing is... now we know. We've learned about BPD or NPD and taking new actions will take time.

I used to list out everything we can and CAN'T talk about to my dh and kids when we'd visit her, it was stressful for all of us. I wish I didn't have to do this but it was my way of protecting us from her. My husband loved to challenge her ridiculous way of thinking and omg, that would cause a tornado to come out in my mother. I was the one who paid the price, not fun at all. I'd get the phone calls and long emails and it never ended well. Now he stays home and it's much better for me. Could this be an option for you?

[WinterStar]

Hello SunnyMeadow,

I know you're right about the conditioning. I've been programmed to go along with what she wants. It's just so frustrating. If I have time to think, I can decide what I want and do it without guilt. But in the moment with the pressure, I fold. I want to avoid that moment of pressure. Though, maybe the goal needs to be to work on taking a minute to think when I feel the pressure. That feels impossible.

I used to list out everything we can and CAN'T talk about to my dh and kids when we'd visit her, it was stressful for all of us. I wish I didn't have to do this but it was my way of protecting us from her. My husband loved to challenge her ridiculous way of thinking and omg, that would cause a tornado to come out in my mother. I was the one who paid the price, not fun at all. I'd get the phone calls and long emails and it never ended well. Now he stays home and it's much better for me. Could this be an option for you?

This is incredibly clarifying line of thought for me. I do want my husband there. He runs some interference and is a buffer. He also helps with the kids. The kids are the best buffer. If I had to make plans with my mom alone, I literally wouldn't bother. I'm just doing it for the kids. I think I should try to keep my focus there and declare trips a success when the kids enjoyed themselves. The kids had a great time, so this one was a "win".

My only concern is at what point does the stress of dealing with my mom impact my parenting enough that it outweighs the benefit of a fun visit with grandma?

[Sneezy]

My only concern is at what point does the stress of dealing with my mom impact my parenting enough that it outweighs the benefit of a fun visit with grandma?

This is a good question and I think it's one of those "you'll know it when you see it" things.  My mom (covert NPD) was a good grandmother when my kids were young.  We used to let them stay at Grandma's house when we visited and DH and I would get a hotel.  Then one visit, mom's husband was mean to the kids and scared them and that was that.  And of course, Mom wouldn't stand up to her husband because that was part of her "woe is me, I'm in a terrible relationship, don't you all feel sorry for me" persona.  Well, from then on, the kids stayed in the hotel with us.  And as time went on, there were fewer visits, because it just got too stressful for a while.  Eventually, most of our visits were just me alone visiting my mom or the whole family visiting (as in a family reunion type of thing, which I found easier because there were more people around, although that may not be the case for you, it depends on your family dynamics).

I think you'll know when it's time to cut back further on visits.  As your children get older, they may start to notice their grandmother's waify behavior and chances are they won't like it.  And so they may naturally hang back from wanting to spend time with her.  Listen to what they tell you and pull back if/when the time is right.  And if you do pull back when your kids are older, you may also start visits up again when your children are adults, as things may change as your mother gets older.  It's hard to predict.

[lilith]

I relate so much to what you describe. I'm living with my "mother" and every day I resolve in myself to be calm, to set my own agenda, to not get sucked into her emotional field of gravity....and then she -

(Literally as I'm writing she called me from the supermarket because she supposedly needs help choosing dip flavours. Oh my god! 😑😑)

Anyway, she does something helpless, infantile, or complaining, and I feel myself being sucked back into her energy. It's so imprinted on my brain that as hard as I try to resist, I just get pulled in. And I feel so much explosive rage at her being able to literally mind control me in this way. I'm also at that stage where I'm just starting to access all that suppressed rage and it just feels endless, like I could set the whole g-d world on fire. I try not to judge myself for that too much, because at least I'm feeling a self-preservation instinct instead of just automatically submitting.

At the end of the day we are undoing some of the strongest mind control there is. So we shouldn't be hard on ourselves that we can't do it perfectly. (We should be angry at the parent who felt the need to control and dominate us instead of nurturing our independence).

I'm so sorry that your husband isn't supportive. It must make the situation so much more stressful. It almost sounds like he's reacting to you as if you're the controlling one, which would be extremely unfair. If you've explained that this is very traumatic and difficult for you and he still can't be supportive, maybe he should stay behind (it would make sense if you wanted him there though as a kind of safety in numbers). Or maybe you don't have to put yourself through this at all. Your children will be just fine without a manipulative grandparent in their lives. And you don't have to decide whether to cut her off or not. You can just not want to see her for the foreseeable future.

Anyway, I hope I didn't talk about myself too much, but I really just wanted to say that I understand and I support you 🙂🫂

[Sneezy]

(Literally as I'm writing she called me from the supermarket because she supposedly needs help choosing dip flavours. Oh my god! 😑😑)

Ok, this made me laugh.  It is EXACTLY something my mom would do.  Because if she picks out the "wrong" dip flavor, she needs someone to blame it on.  My mom can not order a meal in a restaurant without knowing what everyone is going to order first, because god forbid she orders the "wrong dinner," whatever that is.  She got mad at me once because she ordered a hamburger and then I ordered after her and got chicken and it was a big deal because "if I had KNOWN you were getting the chicken, then I would have gotten the chicken, too." 

In all seriousness, I didn't sign up to be a mother to my mother.  Of course I want to help her and manage her care and do the things that it makes sense for me to do.  But it needs to be one adult (me) helping another adult (my mom).  My days of ordering meals for children and helping children make decisions are behind me.  My mom is not a child and I am so tired of her acting like one.

[jennfr]

...
...I do want my husband there. He runs some interference and is a buffer. He also helps with the kids. The kids are the best buffer. If I had to make plans with my mom alone, I literally wouldn't bother. I'm just doing it for the kids. I think I should try to keep my focus there and declare trips a success when the kids enjoyed themselves. The kids had a great time, so this one was a "win"...

Not being married nor having any kids myself, I may be missing something quite obvious - but - any chance you could just send husband to bring kids to visit with grandma next time, and Not go along yourself?  (Would your husband be a sufficient supervisory presence?)

EDIT:  Only your phrase, "just doing it for the kids,"  has made me wonder if this could be a helpful thought for you.  But NOT to imply in any way that you should even consider this idea otherwise.  Maybe it could be a "win" for her, or just in any way something that's not what you want.  If so, I apologize and heartily withdraw the suggestion!

[lilith]

(Literally as I'm writing she called me from the supermarket because she supposedly needs help choosing dip flavours. Oh my god! 😑😑)

Ok, this made me laugh.  It is EXACTLY something my mom would do. 

In all seriousness, I didn't sign up to be a mother to my mother. 

Well, I'm glad it gave you a laugh 😅 Sometimes you really have to laugh at the total absurdity of their dysfunction.

No, and it would be one thing if we could just set boundaries and form a healthy adult-to-adult relationship, like you said. But everything inside of them is insistent on not coexisting, but devouring us. I hope you can find a way that works for you and pursue it without guilt. They don't feel guilt for abusing us, so we shouldn't feel guilt for pursuing our own healthy lives, whatever that looks like.

[WinterStar]

Anyway, she does something helpless, infantile, or complaining, and I feel myself being sucked back into her energy. It's so imprinted on my brain that as hard as I try to resist, I just get pulled in. And I feel so much explosive rage at her being able to literally mind control me in this way. I'm also at that stage where I'm just starting to access all that suppressed rage and it just feels endless, like I could set the whole g-d world on fire. I try not to judge myself for that too much, because at least I'm feeling a self-preservation instinct instead of just automatically submitting.

At the end of the day we are undoing some of the strongest mind control there is. So we shouldn't be hard on ourselves that we can't do it perfectly. (We should be angry at the parent who felt the need to control and dominate us instead of nurturing our independence).

I'm so sorry that your husband isn't supportive. It must make the situation so much more stressful. It almost sounds like he's reacting to you as if you're the controlling one, which would be extremely unfair. If you've explained that this is very traumatic and difficult for you and he still can't be supportive, maybe he should stay behind (it would make sense if you wanted him there though as a kind of safety in numbers). Or maybe you don't have to put yourself through this at all. Your children will be just fine without a manipulative grandparent in their lives. And you don't have to decide whether to cut her off or not. You can just not want to see her for the foreseeable future.

Anyway, I hope I didn't talk about myself too much, but I really just wanted to say that I understand and I support you 🙂🫂

Lillith,

Thank you so much! Your reply is incredibly helpful. I'm also tapping into the unprocessed rage. I was never allowed to be upset with my mom because nothing was really her fault due to her sad life story. If she did something wrong that might lead me to be angry, she would pre-emptively explain that she didn't mean to, couldn't help it, what have you. Now that I'm in my 40s, I've come to the realization that many of the things in her sad life story are just the slings and arrows that come with life. The rest are true abuse, but I've had a heavy dose of that too, and it hasn't caused me to parentify my kids. She chose how to deal with that abuse, and she chose to continue the cycle of abuse. And she continues to make that same choice even now. The anger really feels endless. And I don't want to see my mom for the foreseeable future. So I won't.

My husband doesn't understand trauma or that I'm having a trauma response to my mom. I think to him it looks like I'm being particular. And it looks to him like my mom's main issue is being overly particular. She's very covert/waify, and he just doesn't see the mind control. He doesn't like how "particular" I am. He wants me to be more easygoing and flexible. He has a bad relationship with his older sister who he also calls "particular." She's been incredibly abusive toward me, and he feels "caught in the middle." So person A abuses person B, and you're caught in the middle? This is my biggest issue with him. He should be completely on my side on this, but instead he wants me to go along with whatever his family does so he can enjoy the visit.

Also, the dip. I mean, who can pick out their own dip? I'm constantly using my phone a friend on that one. It's. Just. So. Hard. Am I right?

[WinterStar]

Not being married nor having any kids myself, I may be missing something quite obvious - but - any chance you could just send husband to bring kids to visit with grandma next time, and Not go along yourself?  (Would your husband be a sufficient supervisory presence?)

EDIT:  Only your phrase, "just doing it for the kids,"  has made me wonder if this could be a helpful thought for you.  But NOT to imply in any way that you should even consider this idea otherwise.  Maybe it could be a "win" for her, or just in any way something that's not what you want.  If so, I apologize and heartily withdraw the suggestion!

Not a bad suggestion at all. I already make myself scarce when I'm there. I'm happy to volunteer to take the kids to the bathroom, what have you. Maybe sometime I won't go at all. My mom would have kittens.