article: Understanding our internal boundaries Psychology Today

[treesgrowslowly]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/lifespan-perspectives/202206/understanding-our-internal-boundaries

So...happy new year everyone!

I thought that this article captures an important concept for those of us working to live Out of the FOG.

When I look back at the era where I was spinning my wheels in PD-infested relationships and family systems, I can now see how much time of MINE (MY PRECIOUS TIME lol) was used up trying to make some random PD happy (spoiler alert: it never worked).

This article talks about internal boundaries - I tend to think of this as internal limits. We are not filled with unlimited energy, and we each have only 24 hours each day to use / work with. There are real limits to how much we can give to the people in our lives. Right?

One of the themes for me across various interpersonal relationships with narcissists, is how casually they tried to take my time from me. Like wow! I look back now, and it blows my mind how casually they would come along and feel completely entitled to hours and hours of my time for something they wanted.

I can also recall their (very very) poor reactions to me when I got tired of how much time I was giving them. Not a one ever ever said "oh Trees, I am sorry, you are right, I have been taking up a lot of your time lately. I shouldn't be doing that". No narcissist has ever uttered those words to me. Entitlement. Always with the entitlement with them....

Recovering from narc abuse is a real journey. A valuable, slow, enlightening journey!

Internal limits, as discussed in this article, definitely relate to my 2023 resolutions.

Anyone else?

Trees

[NarcKiddo]

I can certainly relate. Not only do the PDs use up my time when present, I also allow them to use up my time in their absence by ruminating/planning about how to deal with them. This year I am seriously working on the second half of that.

[SeaBreeze]

Thanks for sharing! I've recently felt long-repressed anger over the YEARS wasted on PD drama. Nowadays, I am very aware of my time, down to the minute. When I feel a circular convo coming on with uNPDh, my main motivator to walk away and not JADE is that, quite simply, I have better things to do with my time! Internal boundaries seem key to what we will and won't allow to take up our time, energy, and focus. Will definitely bookmark this article to read later!

[SonofThunder]

-One of the themes for me across various interpersonal relationships with narcissists, is how casually they tried to take my time from me. Like wow! I look back now, and it blows my mind how casually they would come along and feel completely entitled to hours and hours of my time for something they wanted.

-I can also recall their (very very) poor reactions to me when I got tired of how much time I was giving them.

-Entitlement. Always with the entitlement with them....

-Recovering from narc abuse is a real journey. A valuable, slow, enlightening journey!

Trees

   I agree, PD's are masters at manipulating our time and create a double-bind for non compliance...Damned either way. 

Once I realized I had been groomed to be a caretaker (Fjelstad), for two decades by my uNPDf and caretaker-modeling, double-bound, flying monkey mother, I also realized that my uPDw was also very perceptive to my caretaker traits, and therefore she could add my time and energies to her plate. 

Thanks for sharing Trees.  I agree with the article author in boundaries we make with ourselves and how they can bleed on others, but it's very difficult to pull those off in any sense of peace with a PD in the mix.  Wishing you the best with your goals in 2023!

SoT

[treesgrowslowly]

Thanks for sharing Trees.  I agree with the article author in boundaries we make with ourselves and how they can bleed on others, but it's very difficult to pull those off in any sense of peace with a PD in the mix.  Wishing you the best with your goals in 2023!

SoT

Hi SoT. Happy new year to you!

Yes, thanks for pointing that out - this article is not related to (or informed by) the topic of dealing with PD's. With the PD's in my experience, asserting my time boundaries with them just led to watching them ramp up their manipulation to cross that boundary and get what they wanted. A good source of info re: the topic of asserting your boundaries to a narcissist would be Dr. Ramani.

Trees

[treesgrowslowly]

I can certainly relate. Not only do the PDs use up my time when present, I also allow them to use up my time in their absence by ruminating/planning about how to deal with them. This year I am seriously working on the second half of that.

Hi NarcKiddo,

I can relate to the reflecting / thinking about how to deal with them better next time. Some of us need a lot of safe space where we can examine what it is that happened to us, and the damage it caused. I find that if I give myself space to reflect on this, it makes it easier to understand what happened. For me, I think it is a whole process. I feel relief after I take time to list how they behaved, so that I no longer feel gaslit, and I start to then feel like I'm not in denial of any of it anymore.

For me, being gaslit led to ruminating. Probably because the brain is trying to make sense of the gaslighting.

With so many narcissistic people I've tried to get close to, it left me ruminating afterwards. It left me wondering what the heck was going on and what to do about it. There was always a bit of denial on my part - I couldn't really see their actions clearly at the time. It was only after the fact - sometimes months later, that I could interpret their actions more accurately.

Some people called it ruminating, but I believe it was necessary for me to have my own understanding about the situation.

Like a situation where narcissist gave me a very odd gift (for example). Because this had already happened in my FOO as well, I didn't always recognize this as a red flag in other adults. It seemed "normal". It was through reflecting that I could start to see them clearly, and see their narcissism. The odd gift, was because they were not thinking about me at all - and they grabbed something on hand to wrap up for me. This simple explanation, could take me months to piece together.

For me, this is how narc abuse worked.

Once I could see their narcissism more clearly, I didn't ruminate on them as often anymore. But it's been a  long process, full of lots of time spent 'teaching' my brain how to see the narcissism in front of me. As a kid, I was trained out of being able to identify it for what it was. As an adult I had to get the corrective lenses so I could see what was in front of me.

That said, ruminating is hard on us, it is draining, and having breaks from it is definitely important - it sucks when unhealthy people take up space "rent free" in our heads as the saying goes.

Trees

[SonofThunder]

I can certainly relate. Not only do the PDs use up my time when present, I also allow them to use up my time in their absence by ruminating/planning about how to deal with them. This year I am seriously working on the second half of that.

Hi NarcKiddo,

I can relate to the reflecting / thinking about how to deal with them better next time. Some of us need a lot of safe space where we can examine what it is that happened to us, and the damage it caused. I find that if I give myself space to reflect on this, it makes it easier to understand what happened. For me, I think it is a whole process. I feel relief after I take time to list how they behaved, so that I no longer feel gaslit, and I start to then feel like I'm not in denial of any of it anymore.

For me, being gaslit led to ruminating. Probably because the brain is trying to make sense of the gaslighting.

With so many narcissistic people I've tried to get close to, it left me ruminating afterwards. It left me wondering what the heck was going on and what to do about it. There was always a bit of denial on my part - I couldn't really see their actions clearly at the time. It was only after the fact - sometimes months later, that I could interpret their actions more accurately.

Some people called it ruminating, but I believe it was necessary for me to have my own understanding about the situation.

Like a situation where narcissist gave me a very odd gift (for example). Because this had already happened in my FOO as well, I didn't always recognize this as a red flag in other adults. It seemed "normal". It was through reflecting that I could start to see them clearly, and see their narcissism. The odd gift, was because they were not thinking about me at all - and they grabbed something on hand to wrap up for me. This simple explanation, could take me months to piece together.

For me, this is how narc abuse worked.

Once I could see their narcissism more clearly, I didn't ruminate on them as often anymore. But it's been a  long process, full of lots of time spent 'teaching' my brain how to see the narcissism in front of me. As a kid, I was trained out of being able to identify it for what it was. As an adult I had to get the corrective lenses so I could see what was in front of me.

That said, ruminating is hard on us, it is draining, and having breaks from it is definitely important - it sucks when unhealthy people take up space "rent free" in our heads as the saying goes.

Trees

+1

SoT

[JustKeepTrying]

Trees - I find it funny how just this morning I was reading about boundaries; how to know, create and keep them - and when I log onto FOG there is a link from on the same topic.  I am grateful.

I think after surviving narc abuse - you are so empty - the gaslighting has stripped you of all that you know - and your landscape is so different.

I compare it to a time I was a water park - I went down a spiral slide and ended in a large pool of water.  So dizzy from the spiral I couldn't determine which way to swim - up or down was completely obscured.  I felt panic and disoriented until a light flashed and I swam for the light.  But for that moment, that brief moment, my world did not make sense and I couldn't see the basics of where the exit and ground were.  Being with a narc is like that moment stretched forever. 

So I am reacquainting myself with boundaries and how do I determine what mine are.  That is one thing that these articles lack - they talk about how important they are; suggestions/categories; but no real advice for how to establish them.  I know I struggle with this as I struggle with disorientation hangover of the water sliding narc.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi JustKeepTrying,

Totally! I agree with you, it is just like that experience you describe at the water park - total disorientation and not knowing which way is up!

I agree, this article doesn't help by explaining how to assert those boundaries. And I agree with you, I remember in the early stages of my exploration of better boundaries, I found one frustrating piece of advice after another! No one could explain how to 'do' it.

As an adult, we are in these different relationships that have different levels or dynamics. Boundaries are about telling the other person what we can / can't do to work with them. So I can call my mechanic (someone I don't have a friendship with) and he can say can you bring the car in for 8 AM and I can confidently ask "Is it ok to bring it in for 9 instead?" and see what he says. As a survivor of narc abuse, I can say that in the early stages of the recovery, even that sort of exchange (with a stranger) would inspire me to just do as asked and not 'make waves' by asking for what works better for me. After narc abuse, asserting ourselves is hard because of that disorientation.

Boundaries with narcissistic people in my life did not "work" (they mostly led to the relationship ending)...narcissistic people will refute or resist any attempt at a healthy relationship, and healthy relationships have good boundaries.

The narcs I have met would rather have no relationship (i.e discard us) than to have to participate in a relationships where we get to have boundaries too (narcs want the boundaries that suit them).

So I definitely distinguish between narcissists and non-narcissists in terms of asserting boundaries.

Not re-explaining yourself to someone who just wants to argue with you, is a type of boundary.

I believe that narcissists hate boundaries. A healthy person sees boundaries as necessary to the functioning of the relationship over time - boundaries provide each person with clarity around what is expected or what is realistic. It is my opinion that narcissists don't want the clarity that boundaries provide. The ones in my life actively resisted my attempt at healthier boundaries.

Narcissistic people also live with an eternal double standard. They are allowed to say no whenever they feel like it, but we are not. They also do not see their double standard, and if I tried to point it out to them, they didn't see it as a problem. The world is supposed to revolve around them no? Talk about disorienting! 

So part of what I learned about boundaries and recovery from narc abuse, is that we survivors need to identify who we can have those healthy boundaries with.

Trees

[JustKeepTrying]

I agree Trees with everything you said.

At this point for me, right now, it feels like I need a more practical approach.  That disorienting feeling is also a hollow feeling - empty like I don't know what my boundaries are and even what my values are.  At least that has been the struggle for the past few years.  Practicing meditation and mindfulness have really helped me identify tension/anxiety.  I was able to pause and reflect what created that feeling/emotion and consider if it's a value/boundary/no reason.  Leaving a narc relationship really messes with your mind.

I recently had a friend who I have known for decades - a very good friend - and they have begun or tried to start a line of conversation that I didn't feel comfortable with - at first I automatically responded in a jokey - don't rock the boat - but after a bit I realized I wasn't comfortable with it all - and I needed to set a boundary.  I did - I brought it up last time we had lunch and he seemed to accept it - until he did it again and I replied in a jokey again kind of in autopilot.  Then I texted no, this is what we talked about and while I extended it and it's on me and I need to remember.  He did it again a couple days ago.  I ignored it this time and I think that is what essentially I need to learn.  To walk away when the other person keeps crossing the boundary.  If they don't respect you to honor your request, then you can leave.  That is hard for this empath/people pleaser but in the end, necessary.

Thank you for this great discussion.

[SonofThunder]

. I think after surviving narc abuse - you are so empty - the gaslighting has stripped you of all that you know - and your landscape is so different.

I compare it to a time I was a water park - I went down a spiral slide and ended in a large pool of water.  So dizzy from the spiral I couldn't determine which way to swim - up or down was completely obscured.  I felt panic and disoriented until a light flashed and I swam for the light.  But for that moment, that brief moment, my world did not make sense and I couldn't see the basics of where the exit and ground were.  Being with a narc is like that moment stretched forever. 

+1. Love the analogy JKT!

SoT