Think i'm weak...

[mrconfused]

Hey guys, been a few months since I last posted.

I'm feeling dazed right now. I've posted countless times about the abuse and misery i've been subjected to, and willingly taken. I needed to share some recent things as I think my PD wife has once again pulled on my emotional cords.

She's been out of order many times since January. I was receiving regular therapy up until March (my therapist went on maternity leave).

About 6 weeks ago, the wife had I think the 3rd psychotic like outburst at me before work. Screaming, abusive, bullying. It ended in her saying she didn't want to be with me anymore. She has said this to me about 3 times previously in the last 2 years.

For me, this felt different. Mostly because I have become tired of it all, and also learnt through my own therapy that I don't deserve this behaviour.

We didn't speak for 2 days as she slept in the spare room that night and then her mum and sister came to visit on the weekend.

She acted like nothing had happened, apart from being a little more hostile and rude.

Anyway, things went on like normal for a couple of weeks. Except I was more withdrawn. I couldn't shake that she had said she didn't want to be with me. Also, a few days prior, she had said to me that if an offer were to be made on our house, she would block it. She thinks i am mad that i want to sell the house and downsize and that I would need to go to a financial advisor to prove to her my claim that it would be good for us to downsize.

So anyway she gets drunk on a friday night on her own and starts saying to me that 'im boring her', she's bored of me. And she doesn't want to be with me anymore. I calmly said, ok let's discuss in the morning as I was in bed.

I woke up and she started telling me she was still upset because I had upset her the night before. I just calmly raised how she said she didnt want to be with me anymore. She said she still felt like that and so I said, OK let's get divorced. She initially went on the offensive. But as the conversation progressed. She seemed shocked that I was actually calm and serious.

She got upset, but the conversation had to be postponed because our young child needed us.

Then life went on as normal for another week or so. She asked me what was wrong and why I seemed distant. I told her it was because I still felt the same way as before. That i'm not happy, that I can't stand living with her emotions anymore. She got really upset, said that she couldn't stand her emotions anymore.

More weeks have passed and this weekend. She kicked off at me again for the first time in a while, I went straight back to the same topic of divorce again. She forthe first time admitted that she thinks she has a personality disorder. But there is nothing that can be done about it.

She asked me to look up therapists that specialize in it and that she would talk to them.

That was a few days ago and I feel dizzy. I don't know whether i've held back from initiating the divorce because i'm a coward. i'm not sure that her personality change in the last couple of weeks is making me think twice.

I've waited for her for so long to get therapy, or take therapy seriously when offered to her. Is this just another tactic to get me to shut up.

Also, her showing how upset she is that i'm unhappy.. is that just crocodile tears.

Why does all it take is one small moment of genuine emotion from them and then you just completely forget the months and years of mean-ness, nastiness and pain?

I want to move forward with my live so much, and i'm just hanging on the edge.. just like aways

[openskyblue]

You're not a coward. You've been abused by your spouse for a considerable amount of time, you've gotten help through therapy, you have children to consider, and you are trying to find your way with (what sounds like) a very unstable person who is  swinging from attack mode to gaslighting to hoovering. Given everything on your plate, it sounds like you are doing the best you can. And that's pretty good.

It sounds like you felt stronger once you took a proactive step -- putting divorce front and center on the table. As someone who's been in your shoes, I'd recommend continuing down that path. Talk to an attorney and find out what your rights are and possible next steps. It does not mean that you have to take them, but you'll be forearmed with important information. It may well be  the case that your spouse has already done this and may leave or try to throw you out.

I'm sorry you are going through this. My ASPD exhusband would also rage, tell me he didn't want to be married, act like nothing was wrong, rinse, repeat. It's hard to keep centered and see your way when you are on the receiving end of this behavior. It really helps to be able to check in with a therapist. How long will your therapist be on maternity leave? If she's going to be out for some time, you may want to check with her and see if she can recommend  someone for you to see temporarily. If that doesn't work, journaling can really help you keep events and your thoughts straight.

[coyote]

mrconfused,
It is not being weak. Believe me I went back and forth with my uPPDw for years before I finally came Out of the FOG myself. We even seperated for a year and I filed for divorce. Of course we did not have kids and that always makes a difference. She did change her behavior as I changed my responses, (no JADE and no Circular Conversations), and firmly enforced my Boundaries.

So end game is that we actually have a good relationship now. Bottom line is if we did not I would not be in it and she know that. It is difficult though to make that call when it is someone you really care for. I hope you find your way through this. I understand it is difficult. 

[mrconfused]

You're not a coward. You've been abused by your spouse for a considerable amount of time, you've gotten help through therapy, you have children to consider, and you are trying to find your way with (what sounds like) a very unstable person who is  swinging from attack mode to gaslighting to hoovering. Given everything on your plate, it sounds like you are doing the best you can. And that's pretty good.

It sounds like you felt stronger once you took a proactive step -- putting divorce front and center on the table. As someone who's been in your shoes, I'd recommend continuing down that path. Talk to an attorney and find out what your rights are and possible next steps. It does not mean that you have to take them, but you'll be forearmed with important information. It may well be  the case that your spouse has already done this and may leave or try to throw you out.

I'm sorry you are going through this. My ASPD exhusband would also rage, tell me he didn't want to be married, act like nothing was wrong, rinse, repeat. It's hard to keep centered and see your way when you are on the receiving end of this behavior. It really helps to be able to check in with a therapist. How long will your therapist be on maternity leave? If she's going to be out for some time, you may want to check with her and see if she can recommend  someone for you to see temporarily. If that doesn't work, journaling can really help you keep events and your thoughts straight.

Thank you for your kind feedback. I actually visited my lawyer the day after my PD wife said she didn't want to be with me. They advised me to stay in the house at all costs and talked me through the next steps with regard to mediation, legal approaches etc.

It felt very different when I said I was happy to divorce. I had never ever been in a place before where I could say back to her.. 'you know what, OK let's end this'. It was incredibly empowering and for a few days, I felt such a great deal of relief. As I had been walking around every day, feeing in my gut 'when will this end!! make it stop'.

I also came up with a plan in my head, it's taken months if not years. When it comes down to it, if we get divorced. I am going to propose that we live very close to each other so that we can do a week on / week off of looking after our child, proper 50/50... I have no idea how that will go down yet though.

I don't know how everything was starting to get so clear in my head, and now i'm back in the fog. My therapist is back in 1 week and i've hopefully got one of her first slots booked in, so I suppose I can stick out another 2 weeks of this limbo.

Everything just disappears into the sand along with my PDw's head. For example. We discussed things on the weekend just gone. She admits to me she believes she has a personality disorder. And yet, she hasn't asked me if i've found some therapists.

And the more I think about it... why should I be the one to put the effort into finding these therapists, to likely get shot down. If I don't mention it again, it will never get spoken about again.

But here I am, thinking "right, better give this a shot..."
She's probably right when she says that there's nothing can change the way she is... When we went to see a couple's councillor a year ago, we got discharged as the therapist said she couldn't work with my PDw due to her binge drinking and not listening to the therapist. In a one on one conversation.. the therapist said to me that it would take an incredible amount of hard work to resolve the issues and teach my partner skills she was not given in childhood. And this of course requires my partner to want to put in the effort to learn them. Which, she has fundamentally not shown over all the years now. The only thing she has demonstrated is how much she doesn't want to change, and the lengths she will go to to 'outsmart' me, the doctors and anyone else.

I don't know why I am here thinking, oh maybe she might change

[mrconfused]

mrconfused,
It is not being weak. Believe me I went back and forth with my uPPDw for years before I finally came Out of the FOG myself. We even seperated for a year and I filed for divorce. Of course we did not have kids and that always makes a difference. She did change her behavior as I changed my responses, (no JADE and no Circular Conversations), and firmly enforced my Boundaries.

So end game is that we actually have a good relationship now. Bottom line is if we did not I would not be in it and she know that. It is difficult though to make that call when it is someone you really care for. I hope you find your way through this. I understand it is difficult.

It's strange, what I found as I explored things from the toolkit is it left us completely detached.

My ultimate boundary is being prepped for divorce, which has taken a long long time to get my head around!

In the cold light of day, (and I would love to learn more about other people's experiences) I feel that my wife is a really nasty person. She's not a nice person with a bad temper. But she's mean spirited, selfish and uncaring in the extreme. So that when I deploy elements form the toolkit, it's just made her nastier. To the point where I don't want to spend time with her. And she doesn't think 'oh, i'll stop being mean as he's not enjoying my company'.. she think's 'oh, he doesn't want to spend time with me. I don't understand why. He's awful!'

[openskyblue]

She's probably right when she says that there's nothing can change the way she is... When we went to see a couple's councillor a year ago, we got discharged as the therapist said she couldn't work with my PDw due to her binge drinking and not listening to the therapist. In a one on one conversation.. the therapist said to me that it would take an incredible amount of hard work to resolve the issues and teach my partner skills she was not given in childhood. And this of course requires my partner to want to put in the effort to learn them. Which, she has fundamentally not shown over all the years now. The only thing she has demonstrated is how much she doesn't want to change, and the lengths she will go to to 'outsmart' me, the doctors and anyone else.

I don't know why I am here thinking, oh maybe she might change

It's understandable to want to save your marriage and help your spouse, but this situation seems to be far beyond the realm of that. It's hard to look that in the face and accept it, but it's also hard to realize that you have this one life to live -- and it's being wasted in an abuse cycle that's damaging to you and your kids.

For what it's worth, I got a lot of help from "Stop Caretaking the Person with BPD or NPD".

[mrconfused]

She's probably right when she says that there's nothing can change the way she is... When we went to see a couple's councillor a year ago, we got discharged as the therapist said she couldn't work with my PDw due to her binge drinking and not listening to the therapist. In a one on one conversation.. the therapist said to me that it would take an incredible amount of hard work to resolve the issues and teach my partner skills she was not given in childhood. And this of course requires my partner to want to put in the effort to learn them. Which, she has fundamentally not shown over all the years now. The only thing she has demonstrated is how much she doesn't want to change, and the lengths she will go to to 'outsmart' me, the doctors and anyone else.

I don't know why I am here thinking, oh maybe she might change

It's understandable to want to save your marriage and help your spouse, but this situation seems to be far beyond the realm of that. It's hard to look that in the face and accept it, but it's also hard to realize that you have this one life to live -- and it's being wasted in an abuse cycle that's damaging to you and your kids.

For what it's worth, I got a lot of help from "Stop Caretaking the Person with BPD or NPD".

I've just purchased that book on audible and also read the authors articles on psychology today... i'll try and get through this book as quickly as possible. THanks for the recommendation.

I just want to get on with my life, this current fairly good behaviour has thrown me as it's been so long since she was not super mean. Got to get my head straight. I'm going read some of my journal entries from the last two years later and remind myself.

[mrstring]

I don't think you are weak. I have been through similar situations. It's tough to make sense of this behavior. You and I view the world one way and unfortunately they view it in a way that I at least could never understand. You appear to be a caring person and hope for the best. Just to share, I tried for 14 years and wish I had some of those years back, but the way I look at it is that things have to maybe play out a certain way in life. If I left her earlier, I may never had a dog which led me to meeting the new woman I am with and happy with. Maybe that;s just justification.

Either way very good idea about looking at the journals. The sad thing about the moments of kindness and peace is that it always seems like the other shoe is going to drop and the bad behavior will come back.

[sad_dog_mommy]

I'm going read some of my journal entries from the last two years later and remind myself.

Re-reading my journal AND going back to my first few posts on this forum were my go-to method to clear up my doubt and confusion as I was coming Out of the FOG.   

((( hug )))

[Spygirl]

 

[coyote]

mrconfused,
There are a lot of variable when it comes to PDs. It is a spectrum disorder so their ability to change is relative to where they fall on the spectrum. The other variable is how much they are committed to the relationship. Dialectical Behavior Therapy is one of the few therapies to show efficacy with PDs. But it takes a lot of commitment and work on the PD's part.

[mrconfused]

mrconfused,
There are a lot of variable when it comes to PDs. It is a spectrum disorder so their ability to change is relative to where they fall on the spectrum. The other variable is how much they are committed to the relationship. Dialectical Behavior Therapy is one of the few therapies to show efficacy with PDs. But it takes a lot of commitment and work on the PD's part.

She was referred to DBT last year, we waited 6+ months, she went twice and then never went back.

Interestingly. Last week when i mentioned divorce again, I don't know whether she's manipulating me to believe she might try therapy or something or not. She's not mentioned it since.

I now have the dilemma, let myself get sucked down that multi month rabbit hole, or just close the door and call time. I suppose there's one single little bit of me thst thinks getting her to therapy is good. But also I think my mind is totally made up thst she's not a nice person.

Such a strange thing being married to a person you fundamentally don't like. I bare her no ill thought. I just look at her and think.. You're just a mean person, not my kind of person all..

[openskyblue]

The offer of therapy sounds like hovering — and not very big hoovering at that.

[sad_dog_mommy]

The offer of therapy sounds like hovering — and not very big hoovering at that.

I agree with openbluesky.   Actions speak louder than words. 

[Whiteheron]

My stbx went to therapy. He lied and spun his tales of greatness to the T. It was a huge source of supply for him. He would also come home and tell me T said you need to....for me, the marriage, our family, etc. Once I realized what he was doing, I told him, if your T needs me to change my behavior or do something differently, then your T needs to speak with me directly.

If your w was truly serious about therapy, she would be researching T's and making calls. Even is she was serious and she went, there is no guarantee it would help.

In the cold light of day, (and I would love to learn more about other people's experiences) I feel that my wife is a really nasty person. She's not a nice person with a bad temper. But she's mean spirited, selfish and uncaring in the extreme. So that when I deploy elements form the toolkit, it's just made her nastier. To the point where I don't want to spend time with her. And she doesn't think 'oh, i'll stop being mean as he's not enjoying my company'.. she thinks 'oh, he doesn't want to spend time with me. I don't understand why. He's awful!'

Similar here. Deep down he is a very mean and selfish man. The only time he's decent is when he wants something from you. If kindness doesn't work, then he resorts to bullying. The toolkit made him worse...It doesn't feel right to say that though, maybe it's more that my employing techniques from the toolkit made it difficult for him to mask his true nature.

[notrightinthehead]

I also used to think I was weak, until I read somewhere, that if I had been weak, I would not have been able to take the abuse for so long, nor would I have ever made a good sparring partner for him.
Applying the Toolbox made our home calmer, as I no longer gave him the opportunities to explode all over me, it also made me less suitable and attractive as a partner for him. Eventually he discarded me, which was the better option, allowing him to keep his self image. Basically I grey rocked my way out of my marriage.
Your wife has told you, that she thinks she cannot change. As you said, if she was serious about therapy, she would do something about it. You agreeing to separate has blunted one of her threats and at the moment she might be re-considering her position. Hopefully for yourself and your child you can keep your home life calm and safe while you keep on working on yourself and your healing.

[Jsinjin]

I found that I am definitely weak.   I endured and continue to endure a 25 year plus marriage to a undiagnosed but strongly symptomatic OCPD spouse.   The toolbox makes me calmer but the violent outbursts scare the crap out of the children and continue to rise in I tensity until someone gives her attention. 

I found that there was no interest in therapy, help or consultation because she had a habit of changing between the micro and macro.   If I or a therapist discussed a behavior like hoarding or yelling she went into the micro asking for specific examples which she would Istantly refute piece by piece.   If one tried to discuss a specific issue she shifted into the broader context.   I don't believe these behaviors are calculated intentional, I believe that this behavior is exhibited control that is her defense and it is natural.    I think that the greatest fear in my spouse is not having complete control so the behavior has evolved to ensure that control.

I have, however, watched the control shift back to me on things I need with statements like "I prefer not talk about this" in a flat voice.   The anger still remains but I don't have to engage.   

I know that deep down my spouse has no desire for a divorce because she wants to have the appearance of a perfect marriage.   I am here because I provide the finances and because I make the marriage be a complete package from an external lens.   

My spouse doesn't want to be a spouse because hugs or sitting with me in church or intimacy or taking a vacation or dinner together would be losing that control and feeling fear and anxiety about that.

I believe that someone with a PD lives in a world of fear and to control that fear they manipulate the world around them and build routines and patterns to ensure that the fear of whatever issue they have is pushed down.   If it is OCPD it's fear of losing control.   If it is fear of abandonment then they manufacture issues for their spouses.

My experiences have been that the small nuggets of nice and sweet behavior serve to maintain control through a show of "see, I'm working at this" and that they pull me back in but then the hard work never gets addressed or finished and the loop just comes right back.

"To be strong is to adapt as experience teaches"

[Poison Ivy]

Jsinjin, my ex-husband said to me that he didn't want a divorce.  But he had already left me, physically (by becoming his parents' full-time caregiver, 150 miles away) and emotionally (even earlier).  I think he likes the idea of marriage but not the aspects of it that I wanted:  living together, supporting each other, talking, etc.   

[Whiteheron]

I believe that someone with a PD lives in a world of fear and to control that fear they manipulate the world around them and build routines and patterns to ensure that the fear of whatever issue they have is pushed down.   If it is OCPD it's fear of losing control.   If it is fear of abandonment then they manufacture issues for their spouses.

I have seen this firsthand with uPDstbx - I believe he's a delightful mix of BPD/NPD/PPD. He must be in complete control of everything and everyone around him at all times.