UNPDH wants us to go to couple’s therapy

[Fae Greenwood]

Last week he asked me if I thought that couple's therapy would help. I remained very MC and answered "I don't know." Of course it won't help unless he wants to change. I did throw the ball into his court by saying that if he wanted to go to counseling then he'd have to set it up. The only reason he's doing this is because I've refused intimacy for the past eight months. And I did that because I had to take control of my body back for my physical and mental health. Four months ago, he walked up to me, hugged me, and said he was going to make me love him again. Umm, no you won't but I was MC. Last week he told me he's trying to be a good husband. He's is not a good husband. When even a slight conversation can suddenly turn into his screaming rant, he's not a good husband. When virtually everything I did for years was wrong and you all know that is NOT an exaggeration, he's not a good husband. When he is concerned with his rights to my body and not my needs, he's not a good husband. So he somehow to my great astonishment got an appointment for next week with a counselor. He won't tell me anything else other than it is downtown and the time. But it is certainly an attempt to get me to buckle under and return to my "duties." And I can't do that again. I just cannot do it.

My marriage is a support structure for my four adult children and my grandchildren. I keep putting off leaving because the negative repercussions will move out to hurt them. I was ready to file in late 2020 but Covid happened, then I thought 2022 but one daughter is getting married late this year and another is having her first baby. Additionally I watch my two grandsons so that my oldest daughter and SIL can work, and my son will soon be graduating from law school and relocating back close to home. We've been able to get DD1 and SIL and grandsons out of a negative neighborhood (hookers were literally using her driveway for business) and into a safer home, help DD2 and SIL to buy a home for new baby to come home to, help DD3 to buy a home with fiancé and have a small wedding, and DS will be living with us for a few months while he studies for the bar.  I've held it together and taken care of my family but it costs me. I'm willing to pay that price.  And now I have to sit with God knows who in an office God knows where and smile and MC because there is zero way I can be completely honest. After all, uNPDh wants to "be a good husband" and knows how to play the part. I am just so sick of this garbage. Why won't he leave me alone? I will insist on driving myself to the appointment and every appointment thereafter.

[notrightinthehead]

Yes, you do that! I remember the marriage counseling with a shudder. He talked 95% of the time and used the sessions to again state his demands and all my short comings. The counselor could not control him, in spite of several efforts to get me to speak. I also could not talk openly because of the repercussions on the way home should I have tried to be honest. I cried through most of the sessions out of anger and sadness that I was trapped in such a marriage.
Stay strong, stay safe!

[Fae Greenwood]

Thanks Notrightinthehead. We were in counseling decades ago and spent most of a year with every session an argument between uNPDh and the counselor about whether husband's behavior towards me should affect my feelings towards him. I mean elemental stuff most people learn by the age of 6. My husband eventually agreed to say "How I treat my wife affects how she feels towards me" and he actually began to improve. It was never really good but it was endurable. And that is my marriage, not a source of happiness and support but something to be endured. I am still on track to leave via the plan I made last year. This is one more obstacle to run. I deserved so much better than this. My PD mother set me up to steal my life. I escaped her plan but was prepped to land squarely in an abusive marriage. I made sure she was cared for when she was older but I didn't grieve when she finally died and I don't think I'll grieve when my marriage ends.

[escapingman]

My STBX asked for couples counselling when I told her I wanted a divorce. I knew it wouldn't help but got along as at least I have tried. She spent every session blaming me and crying complaining about how unfair I treat her. I used the sessions to watch her and study her, she behaved 100% as every NPD have been described to do in couples counselling. This has made it easier in my mind to push on with the divorce.

Good luck, remember to not feed him any supply in the sessions.

[CagedBirdSinging]

Hi Fae, I admire your wisdom. You already know you can't be honest during these sessions, and you have already decided to take separate cars. Bravo.

When I went for couples therapy with my stbx (I left last year, not officially divorced yet), I was still in the fog. I mistakenly thought the therapy room was a safe space. I spoke honestly and openly. My H was fairly calm during the session. Then on the drive home, he flew into one of the worst of his rages. Not exaggerating, I did not think I would make it home alive, during that drive home from couples therapy. It was horrific.

Separate cars, and bite your tongue during the session - 100% yes. Couples therapy with a PD is just a trap to lure you into thinking you're in a safe place, so you will speak openly and honestly; words which will later become weaponized against you. Don't take the bait.

(UN)CBS

[Associate of Daniel]

I would add, if you think you will feel unsafe being in the same room as your husband during therapy sessions, or unsafe afterwards, don't do it.

Maybe ask to see the therapist seperately?

Also, put a limit on the number of sessions you'll attend.

If by say, session 3, you feel you're not being listened to by your husband or the therapist, or that you're not being given space to tell your story, or even if you just don't feel the therapist is right for the job, don't go back.

I think you're very wise to go in seperate cars.

All the best.

AOD

[Poison Ivy]

IMO, if the reason to go is because you want to be able to say (if only to yourself) that you tried everything, it's okay to go. If the only reason to go is that your husband suggested it, don't go.

[Fae Greenwood]

Well you all nailed it. I am going in large part so that I can indeed check that off my list. And AoD, I don't feel unsafe. I well remember the driving tantrums, but the real issue for me is uNPDh will be rewriting the session on the way home. It is amazing how that PD filter works. I say "Go North," he hears "North is bad," decides to go East, and then yells at me claiming I told him to turn right from the middle lane. So counseling is gonna be like fight club with the first rule being don't talk about counseling. He actually loves honesty between us but only when it is coming from him and towards me. Also I have my  timeline and I want to keep things on an even keel for at least another year.

I actually am feeling bad about this. I want a warm open loving relationship with my husband, and I've had glimpses of that throughout my marriage. I really believed that if I could just get him to understand how he was hurting me, he would stop it. It took a long time to accept that he understood but he liked it. And I've seen him complain complain complain about some aspect of his life and then it is done. The kids aren't clamoring for attention because they're growing up, or his mother got really sick and finally died, or his work finally couldn't take his antics and let him go. That time and place that in that moment was good and fleeting and fragile is now remember by him as golden and he fights to do back to it but it is done. We just have this time right now and he constantly wants to go back to the time that he didn't appreciate or forward to an idealized time that will never come. And some years ago, he turned that complaint machine onto me. It was every day, the sudden sharp rebuke for what he thought I'd done or the rage about what he thought I might do or the complaint for what I could have done instead. To repair that, he first has to acknowledge the damage he did then work with me to build a new relationship on that foundation. This from a man who's apology is a version of "sorry you let yourself feel hurt by what I said." He can't even get to step 1. The pattern is that he'll tell me to tell him what to do, then tell me that I'm wrong, then sulk, then announce that I was unsupportive. Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior so I don't have much hope. And no, I will NOT be his guide on this as I will be MC. I suspect I'll be idealized after I leave. What a terrible waste.

And I found out we are going to a female licensed family/marriage counselor that specializes in anger issues. I'm pretty pleased about that. He left the computer open and I saw he got he info off of Psychology Today. He's feeling pretty good about himself for doing that.

[1footouttadefog]

My pdH and I went to a counselor at a Veterans Of America center for a while.

pdH used the sessions to have an audience for his war stories.  He would interrupt and ask about headlines or sports to change to topic if the councilor guided the conversation toward therapy.  Simply did not engage 95% of the time.  If I got a change to discuss what concerns I had I always tried to be gentle in how I worded things.  Despite this I was met with statements that were very black and white and over exaggerating what I had said.

Like when I mentioned that the kids get upset and feel unsafe when he goes off on a yelling rant.  It was met with "oh yeah, I chase them and scream at them to scare them all day and night, I cannot believe you are serious"

These sessions only served to inform the councilor how insane he was and the VoA helped send got back through the VA system and raised to 100% disabled.   As a result my kids and have health coverage, and they got a nice living stipend while in college that covered a good percentage of state university costs. 

In short it did nothing for my marriage, actually made it worse in so many ways, but it positively changed my life.   

Fast forward a dozen years and I ask myself if I and the kids would not be better off had I divorced remarried etc etc.   I am in the past years of child raising  as one graduates from college and the other is half done, and hope any error in my decisions will not have impacted them in a way they cannot overcome once the launch into their own lives.   

[Fae Greenwood]

Thanks to all of you for your encouragement. I just got back from our session. It went really well. The counselor seemed very nice. I can tell, though, that it will likely take months until she starts to get a serious clue about us. She did give us twice the time she normally does, so hmm.  I actually spoke up about his rages and volunteered  that I have refused sex with him for months. Of course uNPDh denied that he had ever raged and then said that I "bragged" about not facing him in bed. That's something to mourn, not brag about, but then he's NPD so he probably thinks I AM bragging. She suggested that there are books we can read. Husband says he doesn't read, so she suggested that I could read them and share the info. I responded that I can't do that, as I'd done that before and my husband then routinely expected that I'd "make" him to that stuff and when he didn't then it was my fault so I wouldn't do that again. The counselor also suggested that we routinely kiss each other good morning, goodbye, hello, and goodnight. She's right, it is a healthy relationship practice but all could could thing was F*** lady, that was on my checklist that he ignored! The counselor finished up with asking us to each come up with 3 nice things we could do for our partner until the next session. After a moment of silence, I asked husband what he would like, and he seemed confused. I then listed a few nice things I do for him and asked again what else would you like? "Don't reject me." Okay, great, I did not go on about how he literally routinely turned his face away from me for 3+ years unless he wanted intercourse immediately but asked for clarification. I asked him to do one thing, to say one nice thing to me each day that wasn't sexual. Again, the look of blankness. Yes, I asked for one thing because he couldn't think of anything and then asked for one instead of three. And yes, I did have to do all the work on that stupid list helping him come up with anything at all. And no, I am not going to remind him to do this nice thing as I am taking zero responsibility for him. He wanted to go to counseling, he's actually got to do the work. I want to be kind and generous even now but every "nice" thing he does for me has strings attached. So...I don't think this is going to do any good but I will give it a reasonable try. I'm not volunteering info but I won't outright lie. I'm responsible for my thing but not for his thing.

And I'm still on my timeline.

[Fae Greenwood]

It's been a week now. I've made a point of hugging him each day for as long as he likes. I'm still making him a hot dinner unless we go out. I have to point out that due to my weight loss surgery, I am unable to eat most of what I cook for him so yes, this is a service I have been doing for at least 9 months. As for the nice things he is supposed to say to me? "You are very important to me." I'll give that to him but otherwise nothing.  And yes, I've been paying attention. Historically choosing to not be rude or otherwise nasty to me has been, by his statements, a deliberately nice thing he does for me and he is avoiding the silent shrugs and abruptly walking away from me while talking to me and even asking me random questions while I try to guess what he's talking about so he likely thinks that all counts as "nice." I do NOT count that as nice. Plus it is highlights what I've known for years, that he has control over his own actions and has chosen to constantly demean me. Even then, the break from constant negativity is nice. We have another appointment in a week so I'll make another report then.

[notrightinthehead]

The break in cruelty dished out to you might help you to heal your self confidence a little. I hope you keep your guards up and stay in researcher mode. How about you take the experiment to level 2 and ask for one compliment every day. (My NPDh freaked out when I did this. I got a fully blown rage explosion over such an unreasonable request). Wishing you strength and resilience!

[Fae Greenwood]

Thank you notright. Anything that helps him feel even slightly responsible for his own behavior is great. And I expected the nice things to be done every day. I did my nice things for him every day. He did two nice things for me in two weeks. Two brief compliments.  But I truly didn't expect any better. I'm actually astonished he did it at all. We are supposed to repeat the behaviors until the next session. Most of the sessions now are sharing our histories. So with biweekly sessions, I expect no changes or challenges for, oh, four months. And that is when one daughter is expecting her first baby and another is getting married. I predict turbulence ahead.

[1footouttadefog]

I have strangers do nice things for me when in public.  Why is it so hard for a spouse to do them. 

I am sorry you live this also. 

[Kat54]

I hope the therapy helps you. I'm sorry for what you have been going through.

This all sounds so familiar. We tried couples counseling. The first one he didn't like because she wanted to see us separately. That meant he would have to deal with his issues which he couldn't do. He stopped after a few sessions. He said she was nuts. She was a PhD Psychologist. The therapist said nothing will get fixed unless he addresses his anger issues. That's why he stopped.

I did keep going and it helped me gain my strength to finally leave.
We tried a second therapist and she would ask us to do at home exercises like hug everyday, take walks together without people interrupting our walk. He would stop for every person he saw and stop to chat.
This was not addressing the main issue, him demeaning me, yelling at me. Making me feel worthless.

So you can do all this surface stuff like hugging, say nice things. Some issues are unfortunately way deeper and I found it was a waste of time. He had the second therapist wrapped around his finger, being nice and schmoozing her. She fell hook like and sinker for his act. The first one didn't, she said he was a narcissist and had deep issues that were destroying our marriage. She could clearly see I was in an abusive marriage by the way he controlled the conversation and I couldn't speak.

I hope it goes well and you see some improvement. If not try therapy on your own with someone else as well as together if you can.

[Here2Help]

Mine used the therapist to prepare for a false allegation. Telling the therapist false things about me, which the therapist believed and then could be used in a divorce court battle. Not very many therapists understand the PD thing. Sometimes the therapists have a PD themselves. A therapist picked together objectively maybe - but going to their therapist? Dangerous for me it was. A therapist and a lawyer who understand PD behaviors might cost a lot now but never as much as the potential continuous victimization during the years to come.

[Fae Greenwood]

We've had our third session and I think therapy with this person is going to be worthless. She doesn't direct us at all or ask questions, she just asks us how everything is going and then starts a conversation with us. There is no follow up from the last session.  We say something, she tells us about a seemingly similar experience from her personal life.* It's actually like we're making a new friend. But I've been to therapy sessions before to deal with issues and this is not what should be happening. She's doing this part time in her retirement to keep her hand in and bring in a bit of income. So if it makes uNPDh feel better then fine. Because I've been the main talker, husband asked that the next session be him alone. That was surprising. I'm guessing that he'll try to bend the narrative somehow. Maybe not, but he doesn't volunteer for anything like this ever. And yes, I've got to remember to not talk much the next few sessions. A good therapist seeing a couple should be working at getting both of them speaking during each session particularly in the beginning and refer to notes from the previous sessions beforehand. I do remember that from our last joint counseling experience many years ago.

In the meantime, husband wanders around saying he's trying to be a better husband. The problem is that he's trying to be a husband he'd like to have, not what I need. Why won't he do what I need? Because he thinks that needing him to speak words of affirmation and give me safe touching are as he put it "stupid." One of my main issues is that he says or does something and then tells me how I'm supposed to feel about it. No one gets to chose how their spouse feels but he can't grasp that elemental truth.  I don't want to deal with the nutty stuff so I'm MC all day long. He hates that. But MC is not only keeping the house calmer, it makes me a lot less attractive as a target. Of course it means my truth has to be internal only. At least the FOG has rolled back and it is much more sunny now in FaeLand. And again, I am unlikely to be persuaded to renew sexual intimacy and am still planning on exiting. My triggers are my longterm (20+ years) rental tenant leaves (she's nearly 80 and I just can't), my husband to again be unemployed (hoping out on that again) or my trigger birthday arrives.

*To deal with depression which I now believe to have been situational largely caused by uNPDh's unceasing emotional abuse for months and once due to the discovery of a child's health condition. It's not my thing to reveal but trust me it was and is a very big deal. I got to visit the therapist alone as uNPDh thought I was overreacting even though this literally changed the major course of my child's adult life. I am please to report that s/he did start treatment, was able to make positive changes in their life's expectations and has a career that should allow him/her to maintain access to consistent medical care. Why yes, I do live in the USA.

[1footouttadefog]

I went to some sessions with my PDH and it was a total waste.  It sounds like you ha e already made your decision and are going through the motions.  I get it and at least you are leading a horse to water even if you can or make it drink. 

Would rental tenant like a roommate and to split the rent, Just a thought.

[Nonamenoshame]

I'm new here but have been dealing with this for years and your posts and escaping mama have been like reading something somebody wrote about my life. It's like you were both in the room with me. It's so odd how similar these things turn out for so many different people. I'm in the midst of trying to find the energy to leave again, i was out for 3 months and it was difficult in the sense of the kids and commute but the peace was amazing. It's the usual you'll destroy the family, your choosing to lose your children. They don't feel like they can depend on you anymore etc. Mine know that's my weakness. It's so hard.

[irene]

When couples therapy comes up I always think of dr oliver james, a psychologist who really gets it, i.e it's not a question of two people not getting on etc it's always just one person making another miserable, there's no therapy for that, just leaving them. Just one short article by him on the subject, but it's something he's talked about a lot over years.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/jan/02/oliver-james-relationships