Their Narcissism drove them to compare us to others. 2 articles about narc envy.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello all,

A recent topic of discussion on the boards has been about how some of us with Narcissistic parents, dealt with these situations where the N parent would take in / help some child outside the family, and then compare us to them, or compare our situation to theirs.

For example - telling their child "Look at so and so's life, at least you don't have it as bad as him!".

This is SO damaging to a child, and I call it out as emotional abuse. A child is not equipped to understand that this parent is working from a place of narcissistic envy, and they are using their child's desire for love, against them.

If your Narc parent ever compared you to other children (your friends, neighbours, etc...), just know that this was very likely part of their NPD, and had nothing to do with you. Narcissism involves envy, as a way of avoiding shame. As described here:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/shame-guilt-and-their-defenses/202012/the-roots-narcissistic-envy

The narcissists in my life were very good at comparing people, as a way of being judgemental of others (a common narc trait, we all know).

In order for survivors to heal, we probably have to unpack what we learned about comparing ourselves to others. The Narc parent normalized a lot of dysfunctional things, including comparisons. (Our car was always better than the neighbour's car...and on and on that went when I was growing up).

Part of what healthy relationships give us, at any age, is validation and affirmation for at least some aspects of our true authentic self. When someone engages in a healthy relationship with us, we are released from the tyranny of comparison (and the emotions of envy, jealousy, etc...) and we get to simply 'be' ourselves. What a gift that a healthy relationship can give. How badly we needed that as children.

A relationship with a Narc cannot give those things. The child who grew up in the Narc-parented household, was constantly compared to other children (including siblings), and had no idea why. Instead of being seen as an individual with inherent value, our value was in being useful to the narc, for supply. We were there to supply the narcissistic parent - and their envy and their jealousy set the tone for what we would endure as they compared us to others.

This article on jealousy and envy is written to a person who wants to learn about that part of themselves (so probably not narcissists, who are not trying to address their own envy and shaming behaviours). But it does a good job describing what was driving my Narc parent all those years ago, when I had to grow up around her.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/intense-emotions-and-strong-feelings/201307/jealousy-and-envy-the-emotions-comparison-and

All that time, I just needed to be parented. And there she was, busy with her envy and jealousy and comparing me to others. I know others here can relate.

As an adult I can see that my N parent acted out of jealousy and envy, but as a very small child I had no way of understanding this.

In the long road of recovery as an adult, I would say that comparing myself to others has been a very strong force that has worked against my desire to heal. And of course, lots of people around us as adults, will join in and compare us to others - making it that much harder to see the way out of this mess.

Have some of you also explored this? I suspect that comparing ourselves to others is natural to an extent, but it can be really hard when we're getting Out of the FOG , to know how to work with it, and how intense it can be for survivors of Narc abuse.

As a child, the brain was primed to stay self-focused so that identity could develop. Narc parenting interrupts that in a very abusive way. The child's own identity work is muddled, confusing and constantly interrupted by the never ending needs of the narc parent. Non-narcissistic parents are not driven to interrupt their child with all of this narcissism. They allow their child to develop their own identity.

Identity work in adulthood is a challenge. Our brain is no longer bathing in the self-centredness that is natural when we are small. Now we look around and compare ourselves as we take in words from others, self-help advice and therapy. The developmental stage where we were naturally in a state of self-discovery, is long gone once we hit adulthood. Now we have to learn more about ourselves, while surrounded by more adults who are comparing us to others.

We must be compassionate with ourselves. Healing from Narc abuse is a valuable journey.

Thoughts?

Trees

[bee well]

Hi All,

Trees,

It's been a few, It's good to "see" you here.

Thanks for posting.

What you describe I do agree, is a form of emotional abuse.

This is an important issue you have brought up that plays out in many households. My own M would help other children in the neighborhood and look after them, but sporadically paid attention to me. I remember she did talk a lot about this kid or the other had it so bad. Criticized other people's parenting styles. Alot. Se would even take on babysitting and basically shower attention on these babies (they really seemed to bring her happiness. I could not ) I would read or play in the corner somewhere. Or worse, just leave the house.

I do think it was a way for her to make herself feel better, about the way she had abused me starting very early on (now I see what happened for what it is).That she really was incapable of good enough Mothering with me, but in some way tried to prove it  with other kids. That hurt and created jealousy in me. Perhaps bringing these children in was also a way to create the sibling rivalry that framed her uN family systems.

Writing this a strange comparison envy situation came into mind. After I had grown into an adult my Mother and I went to visit a friend of mine, one of "those who had it worse than me." This friend had made a nice home for herself, was doing ther best providing for her raising her kids, and my mother could not say anything good, just that there was dirt in the corners? I  thought, wow, but didn't know where that mean comment came from

I never that of it now but after reading your post I think it was envy. Perhaps that this friends of mine was married with a family and I, her daugther was single and childless? Envy that the daughter of a woman she had sharply criticized (who was not by the way, a nice person) was making a home. I don't know but that meanness came from somewhere.

Thinking about it, it reminds me of MIL and her biting criticism.

After our latest "problem" I was recently told by some one in DH's family that suffers from envy. I know she does didn't even want to talk about it as it it sounded so ugly to me at the time, I wanted to avoid the conversation, but I think many of her behaviours derive from from envy and shame, and much of it is about finding ways to bring people down, Comparison and gossip are two one of them,.

The not good enough feelings can creep in insidiously. Even in activities where there are absolutely  competition involved, we do it to ourselves. 'll invent a seemingly  example: if we want to cook a meal for someone and create happiness, the whole process of doing that can bring out feelings like "OH if it doesn't turn out well, what will people think (perhaps the invitee is a good cook), that I can't even cook a simple meal...So we might abandon the idea, or just decide to go to a restaurant" (Not a bad solution if one just doesn't feel like cooking, that's a different topic) There's that shame and comparison snaking in.

I really appreciate what you wrote here. It's very true:

"Part of what healthy relationships give us, at any age, is validation and affirmation for at least some aspects of our true authentic self. When someone engages in a healthy relationship with us, we are released from the tyranny of comparison (and the emotions of envy, jealousy, etc...) and we get to simply 'be' ourselves. What a gift that a healthy relationship can give. How badly we needed that as children."

This also resonates: "As an adult I can see that my N parent acted out of jealousy and envy, but as a very small child I had no way of understanding this.

I'm sorry  you didn't get what you so needed from your M. Living with that constant pressure as little ones and not understanding it takes a huge toll. It's extremely hard for we survivors to realize that a person who we wanted to love us so much (our Ms) were not capable and that in many cases it was because they were cosumed by envy , Often directed at for their own children. I'm not a Mom but I think that would be really devastating for survivors who are also Mother's who nurture and provide love and good enough care to their own children)  to ask why couldn't one's own M do something so simple and natural, to have loved you that way you need to be loved.

  It's really hard and unfair that it has to take so long to work though it all. (Speaking about feelings that have come up for me.) I think it's important to remind ourselves and give ourselves a lot of credit that just  by waking up to what is/has happened, we have taken back a great deal of that freedom to be ourselves that we we robbed of as children..

You say:

"In the long road of recovery as an adult, I would say that comparing myself to others has been a very strong force that has worked against my desire to heal. And of course, lots of people around us as adults, will join in and compare us to others - making it that much harder to see the way out of this mess."

"Have some of you also explored this? I suspect that comparing ourselves to others is natural to an extent, but it can be really hard when we're getting Out of the FOG , to know how to work with it, and how intense it can be for survivors of Narc abuse."

Yes, Trees. For me it comes out in moments where I feel I should be further a long in my healing, or when I'm having feelings that I am tired of feeling (Grieving is necessary, but there are times when I just want a break.) Then there's the times I say, why am I still doing this now. I just want to be free. The answer that I give myself is that things are a lot better that when I started, I don't want to go back. I don't think most of us will ever stop healing, even if many of us take some steps forward and a few back before we get our flow going again,

There sometimes enters a thought that some people are doing a better job, even when I know how far I have come. There are times where I can do better with self-care, most of us have those days, but then there are times when I feel badly because for one reason or another, I don't have unlimited access to some resources that would objectlively be of a lot of help, and I think there is shame connected to that. (Which goes back to the original shame of "why was my family "like that?" There's lots of reasons but at the end of the day it was the luck of the draw. Not fair for the kid, but it's encouraging to see here how many have gotten out and in spite of the pain,reshaped their directions in life.

People that didn't become Narcs and are bettering themselves, when it would be far easier to not face what happened, and go along

Today we're okay just as we are., even if we might want to do somethings differently, the important thing is to work towards  change.We all have a lot in common here but no two individuals has the exact experience or same resources. Each one of us not is better or worse. We can all find our way and learn from each other as we break free of the comparison.

This was a hard one to write . I hope it came through clearly enough. Hugs.

[bee well]

p.s Trees. I left out an important part. Mine would tell  me how badly her M treated her, and let me know how lucky I was not to suffer what she did. (Justifying her abuse) Another of the "others had it worse than me." That might sound familiar to

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Bee Well,

Thank you for what you wrote here.

It gives me some thoughts about how much havoc has been wrecked in my emotional life, that is tied to "better" being weaponized against me at times.

A few years ago, I realized how "should" was a powerful red flag for me to look for in terms of who I would probably need to distance myself. People who said "You should....." more than a few times during a conversation with me, got themselves on a bit of a 'list' in my head...and I started to recognize that WHY I felt sh**ty after seeing them, was because they thought they knew better than me, about things they didn't know better than me - things that were to do with my own stuff, things they didn't know anything about! They were not interested in a healthy conversation, they just wanted to tell me what to do! Once I saw those read flags, I faded out of their lives.

Now I think about how "better" can be 'weaponized' against us as we are trying to heal, and like you said, just be free!! Like "should", "better" can be used against us.

"Better" is not always a bad word. When I craft, it's common to find out about a better way to perform a task, or "better" supplies that make my crafting easier on me (like a needle threader to save my eyesight as I age lol!).

But "better" was a heavy weight I carried as a child, and I do believe it is common for children of narc parents to carry that weight. Narcissistic parents see the world in this black and white "she's better than me" "you're better than her" "I'm better than my mother was" lens, and it is not healthy. None of that is healthy. Life is not about who is better than the other. When "better" is invoked like that, it's just a different way of saying "you're not good enough". Which is very toxic for any child to be told.

Emotional abusers are very skilled at manipulating people and one common form of manipulation is "I would love you but you're not good enough yet". Instead of saying that over and over, my parent would say "You could be better at this". Which was really just a variation on the first sentence. The benefit of phrasing it as "you could be better at this" is that the casual observer and the child themselves, might be tricked into thinking "oh this person just wants to encourage me to keep trying! She's just trying to help me improve" (that is not what the narc is doing).

A child should not have to jump through any hoops to feel loved. None.

There's that saying about how guilt is about knowing you did something wrong, shame is about feeling you are something wrong.

Like you wrote, shame was what was going on in those toxic situations where our parents were comparing us to them, or them to someone else, or comparing someone to who they were as a child. I agree with you, I think your mom was comparing that person to who they were as a kid, and then envious and jealous that the person had made their life better.

Which is the correct use of the concept! We should try to make our own lives better when we can - but narcs don't want that. They want control, they don't want people to be healthy.

After over a decade away from her, I have made big strides in my recovery. I have grieved a lot, and like you said, felt so tired of grieving. I now know, without a doubt that when I was a child, my parent was SO hopelessly immature, there was no hope of her knowing how to teach me the difference between guilt and shame. Which really put me at risk for toxic shame, anxiety, etc etc... the list of things we know that survivors of narc abuse struggle with.

I have to teach myself - and not just intellectually (that's pretty straightforward). I have to learn how to see (as an adult) when other adults want to shame me. This is key to my recovery, because a lot of the people around us are going to have the power to trigger us into a shame spiral, without even knowing or caring. They might do it because it was done to them, or they might do it because it serves them.

But the truth (that therapists did not explain to me when I was getting way more adamant about healing from my narc abuse), was that the average adult, does have the capacity to trigger that shame and envy spiral in me, and I will rarely be in a position to sit them down and say "ok so the way you treated me last week, you shamed me for not knowing how to cook the worlds greatest meal, and I really don't engage with that crap anymore". Most of our adult relationships are too superficial to really handle that sort of conversation. We probably all have neighbours or coworkers who do things that trigger the shame and envy stuff, and it's not appropriate to sit them down to explain to them why that is problematic for us. We have to sort that out on our own time!

You wrote "People that didn't become Narcs and are bettering themselves, when it would be far easier to not face what happened, and go along"

I totally agree. It has taken me a long time to realize that I could never have done this work had I kept my N parents in my life. Never. Their constant focus on shame and envy would be completely at odds with my recovery goals for myself. The first few years NC, I couldn't know that yet, because I couldn't know what 10 plus years NC would give me - the freedom to explore my own stuff, without being interrupted by them every time they phoned to pull me into their narc-shame-cycle.

And specifically, those 'pretend' check-in calls that quickly become "oh did you hear about so and so, she's doing so much better than you". Ugh. no thank you! That is how they perpetuate the narc shaming and project their envy onto others.

My mother would also tell me how much better I had it than her. In my case, given what I know about some of her history, this is objectively true that I did not face some of the situations she did. That doesn't mean she was a good parent! But at her level of emotional maturity, she couldn't grasp that.

Honestly, I don't think she was relieved that I did not have it as bad as her - I think she was jealous and envious of me, and I think that envy just constantly corroded any attempt I made as an adult to have her in my life. Her envy was intense!

I agree with you, it is sad that this work takes so long and takes up so much of our adult years. But I am grateful that I saw it at all because FOG is very hard to come out of. I am just grateful to others here like you who are sharing in that process together.

Trees

[bee well]

Hi Trees,

Your post brought out some very important topics.

Understanding how envy and shame and jealousy can keep dysfunctional systems in place, even when we are out of them (and "trying" to get "them" (family messages) out of us, Deeply knowing vs. intellectualizing takes a long time, often many years, as you wrote, and is so important for healing. Because even when we are long gone from the systems, the old tapes can come and start playing, even when one least expects it. Sometimes we don't even realize it. It's so good when we realize it. I think that's a sign of healing.


Intellectuallizing is something that helps us understand and continue to understand. Many of us weren't permitted to understand, we were cut off in conversations, laughed at, minimized or whatever happened in our FOOs.I think many of us start to know long after we have intelectuallized it all, and most us, even those with a lot of revovery,probably will look at things from both poitns.

Language and context is so so crucial. Words like "Better" as you pointed out. Used as a verb like, "we are healing to better ourseves. We want to get better so we can feel better."

The word better, and here is another seemingly innocuous example I invent-- as in when uPD decides "oh so and so has always been a better driver than the other person looking on (who is also a good driver), it's going to be a long trip, so and so will be the one drive) can set up negative and powerful air of comparison, and triangulation A lot of people don't know this, as they haven't suffered of abuse where words were weaponized sometimes in the most subtle of ways. Even a simple statement like that could send a survivor into a shame spiral, and remind them of the old comparisons and competitions that surround the concept of better (and best!)...

I'm glad you got a needle threader. When things go smoothly and we have the right tools, that can bring more flow into our hobbies. Yay for that! It has never been easy for me to thread a needle. I know One uN who has repeatledy point that out. I'm laughing writing this because I think if they could they would follow me into the bathroom to see if I am doing that right too. 

Personally, learning about these things has affectly my spontaneity, and I find myself thinking a lot about words,  what I say and is said to me. Sometimes it has allowed me to understand things more  deeply and be a more considerate person but at other times it has hampered my ability to trust myself or freely be .Thankfully, I can see that our speech changes in a permanently positive way when we communicate in conscious ways.

(Just using phrases like,"I respect your view but this is my opinion," etc. etc. even when we are talking with disrespectful people helps to keep conversations on a healthier track.)

Sometimes I will realize I could have used a word in a different way---if I realize I said something that wasn't right,  I will apologize. But when I am with a trusted enough person, I have decided it's ok to have just said things well-enough. If they know me well enough. they will get what I said from the context (and intonation, if it's face to face communication). What I am getting at here that some of us do this parsing where it it leads to frequent unneccessary apologizing (many of us were also forced to apologize for things that weren't our fault.)

"Should" is  another big one you have pointed out. A person who thinks they know you better that you do, and often tells you what you "should" do (presumably to fix you or some problem which is not theirs ) is in my opinion usually not a person who wants to relate on equal footing.

The thoughts you write here resonate for a lot of us.

"I have to teach myself - and not just intellectually (that's pretty straightforward). I have to learn how to see (as an adult) when other adults want to shame me. This is key to my recovery, because a lot of the people around us are going to have the power to trigger us into a shame spiral, without even knowing or caring. They might do it because it was done to them, or they might do it because it serves them.

But the truth (that therapists did not explain to me when I was getting way more adamant about healing from my narc abuse), was that the average adult, does have the capacity to trigger that shame and envy spiral in me, and I will rarely be in a position to sit them down and say "ok so the way you treated me last week, you shamed me for not knowing how to cook the worlds greatest meal, and I really don't engage with that crap anymore". Most of our adult relationships are too superficial to really handle that sort of conversation. We probably all have neighbours or coworkers who do things that trigger the shame and envy stuff, and it's not appropriate to sit them down to explain to them why that is problematic for us. We have to sort that out on our own time!"

I want to learn this too. think this is one of the hardest parts of healing. Being able to sort it out on our own. When people are sending the message that "we need to work it out, and get over it"  (sometimes we can, if it's worth it to do it) it can be well-meaning and/or insulting at the same time. There are lots of people who are not willing to or do not want to  understand the effects that words can have. There are moments when we decide it's right to speak up, but the explaining part, for me hasn't brough lots of results, except with a few individuals who I know closely.) So ro repat what you say, in many cases it is " it's not appropriate to sit them down to explain to them why that is problematic for us. We have to sort that out on our own time!"

There are times when we survivor may use other choices than walking away, such as compartmentalizing it, giving ourselves to think  dealing it with it later. occasionally  giving the person a pass (Not repeated ones, in unsafe situations, I underline here.) The best ones like grey rock and MC are in the tool box....

Thanks as always for stimulating  very thought provoking important conversations, Trees. I'm grateful they are being had, and am also grateful for this place.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Bee well,

So true. Thanks for your writing.

I'm learning a lot from some people online who post these days about post-traumatic growth, and feeling very relieved that such ideas are finally circulating more widely. I really don't recall these messages about survival and healing to be so insightful even 10 years ago. Now a days, more people understand the power of language in terms of healing work. If that progress continues, then more people will understand the things we have been writing about here.

What is really needed, is more language that reflects understanding and acceptance of a survivor's experiences. The more that we have that in the culture, the easier it will be for individuals to recover from narc abuse.

I love what you wrote about language because it is not about being perfect, its about being good enough at saying what we say, and knowing that the people who care about us, don't demand 'perfection' with our language and how we express ourselves.

Even someone who has never experienced narc manipulation tactics, can learn how to convey understanding and acceptance towards those of us who are healing from such things (if they are concerned, which is a big 'if' I guess!).

I think that what keeps a lot of people from learning this stuff, is fear. They are so scared to not align themselves with the more controlled / authoritarian approach to life, that they cannot stand with survivors and be our allies when we start asserting our boundaries. 

In "shoulding" me, I think those people were sending a clear message. Like you said, they are not interested in a relationship on equal footing. Some people are comfortable telling us what to do, how to behave. They want control over others, so they are not really interested in relationships or friendships that are collaborative rather than competitive.

In my opinion, those people are not ready to leave behind the habits they have. Where envy and jealousy are rationales for behaviours. Once a person examines that stuff, they are left without some of the powerful coping mechanisms that they have had, probably had for a long time. I'm thinking about the FM's who refuse to support the scapegoated family members when we start to assert more boundaries.

Those FM's are just too scared to support us, and so they end up supporting the narcissism instead. When we take a stand against all of the envy and comparison and competition and jealousy that characterizes our dysfunctional FOO, those FM's just refuse to take that stand with us. Which leaves us quite alone to do this work.

When people say "we need to move past this, let this go" I cringe. Is it code for "I just want to sweep this under the rug"? That is what I saw a lot of people do when I was trying to have deeper relationships with them. They just want to rug sweep the disconnects, rather than learn from them. I had FM's come at me the odd time during my NC so far, and it's always the same message - "Trees, you need to let this all go".

I think that instead of saying "let's just let it go", the person should first be saying "let's learn from this" and allow a real conversation that gives each person more info about what is going on for each of them, especially emotionally. When someone told me to "move on", what they really wanted was for me to keep the status quo, and not tell them what had upset me.

The culture of "move on" and "sweep it under the rug" in friendships, won't get us anywhere. Survivors of PD abuse who have gotten themselves Out of the FOG, have a lot to bring to their relationships with people they meet later on in life. I hope we are moving to an era where that gets recognized more easily, or that we can find each other more easily too!

Survivors have taught themselves so many things to get themselves Out of the FOG - they (we) know the value of conversations where people can say "yeah, I really meant to say this when we were talking about that topic last time". Part of recovery is looking for those relationships with people who see relationships as living, breathing entities they need to nurture. We want relationships with others that are truly based on collaboration and reciprocity, not control and "shoulding" one another.

So many people have been affected by narc abuse - some are aware of it and some are not. I hope that with time, it will get easier and easier for people to feel good taking those steps to come Out of the FOG and feel hopeful about their ability to recover from the manipulations they suffered earlier in life.

Trees

[bee well]

Hi Trees,

Thank you for writing all of this out for us.

Language is so so important, the effect it has on children as they grow up, and what kind of person they will be in the world.

This is also huge: "What is really needed, is more language that reflects understanding and acceptance of a survivor's experiences. "

It's hard to talk about and describe our experiences even here with those safe enough individuals we find here in a place where we are comfortable. (which is why this is good practice). Then to talk about it outside and get those "Oh but they didn't meaning it that way...all the rest." We get unknowingly shamed because people are too naive to believe the abuse exists. That words can leave unseen scars.

I remember when family violence in general was also swept under the rug. I hope we can one  get to a place where emotional abuse is a widely accepted fact.

As all of this information continues to come out, I as you I also hope to hear more, see more focus on post traumatic growth.

I wanted to comment on this:

"When people say "we need to move past this, let this go" I cringe. Is it code for "I just want to sweep this under the rug"? That is what I saw a lot of people do when I was trying to have deeper relationships with them. They just want to rug sweep the disconnects, rather than learn from them. I had FM's come at me the odd time during my NC so far, and it's always the same message - "Trees, you need to let this all go".

Totally, "move on" to what? To staying quiet and doing more of the same? Where's the value in that? Not much in my book.

Here you wrote:
I think that instead of saying "let's just let it go", the person should first be saying "let's learn from this" and allow a real conversation that gives each person more info about what is going on for each of them, especially emotionally. When someone told me to "move on", what they really wanted was for me to keep the status quo, and not tell them what had upset me."

Yes, yes, and yes. You talked about the elements of envy and jealousy and shame that frame many unhealthy systems, there is also the contempt or fear of another's contemptuous behaviour added into that mix that keeps it in place. (usually person "high" up in family system.)

When people cant or won't have the constructive conversations you described, that's when I start to realize it's time for me to do something different. Certainly , that's time to observe if it's a pattern.

Maybe some of those people will be receptive or learn more later (if they are not uncurably disordered) but I dont think it's realistic to keep waiting around for change. I know from experience.

"The culture of "move on" and "sweep it under the rug" in friendships, won't get us anywhere. Survivors of PD abuse who have gotten themselves Out of the FOG, have a lot to bring to their relationships with people they meet later on in life. I hope we are moving to an era where that gets recognized more easily, or that we can find each other more easily too!

Survivors have taught themselves so many things to get themselves Out of the FOG - they (we) know the value of conversations where people can say "yeah, I really meant to say this when we were talking about that topic last time". Part of recovery is looking for those relationships with people who see relationships as living, breathing entities they need to nurture. We want relationships with others that are truly based on collaboration and reciprocity, not control and "shoulding" one another."

I with you on what you wrote there. 

In the meantine we can just keep having these conversations, learn from each other, and take risks when we feel safe enough to do so. We can handle the difficult people in ways that are healthier for us, and have the right to revise as we go along. Whether it's NC, LC, medium chill, grey rock , or any other tools survivors have under their belt. We can use those tools knowing we can only control the outcome for us. Sometimes the outcome isn't always smooth or perfect, and there's no shame in that.

(Big one for me these days is focussing on the 3 C's and trying to internalize them.)