I hope this is the outlet I need!

[Molly Grue]

Hi, I'm really glad to find this forum. I've been trying to find an outlet for awhile and places like Reddit don't feel right for more serious personal matters. I'm not posting under my real name, but bonus points to anyone who recognizes the reference!

I'm a wife of quite a few years and my husband and I have a young child. If it were just the three of us (plus two very spoiled cats), I probably wouldn't even have gone looking for this forum because we're a pretty happy little family; we balance work and life and do the best we can for our child. My husband and I are both pretty introverted (me moreso, which can make it hard to deal with working with the public part time at a big box store) so we don't do as much visiting and hosting visitors as our little one would like. We do have a handful of good friends we consider family but most of the other people (blood relations) in our life bring us a lot of stress.

I grew up in a very loving family, but alcoholism was a problem. It wasn't so bad growing up, I thought, but now in hindsight I see there was a lot more drinking than I realized at the time. It got much worse when the nest was empty and I found myself having to parent my parents a lot more than anyone should. Things are getting better now and they're working hard on sobriety and their personal differences, which is great, though I always tell them that they have to prioritize happiness and safety over just staying together on principle.

One of the hard parts is that my mom has been showing signs of BPD and it's gotten much worse in recent years (she's always had certain personality traits that have become so much more magnified that I realized it's more than just quirky stuff). Like so many people with a potential PD, she doesn't realize how she behaves and doesn't think therapy is the answer, so this is completely undiagnosed and just based on my research on her symptoms. It's often easier to just avoid her when she's "bad," one time not too long ago we had an hours-long phone call where I spoke less than five minutes and just listened... But I try to be supportive and we're rebuilding our relationship. I love her and hate when I feel myself pulling away, but sometimes it's just better for my mental health to take a break. She accepts that pretty well, fortunately.

My parents cause a lot of stress but overall things are pretty good with them. The bigger problem is my mother-in-law, who I'll likely go into more detail about in a the family relationships forum. She shows pretty much all the classic signs of NPD, undiagnosed because this is definitely a case of "there's nothing wrong with me, I don't need therapy or even to consider my behavior because everyone else is the problem." My husband had a childhood that was the opposite of mine in most ways and the current situation is that the two of them had a pretty big blow up and are no contact but she continues to go through me to try to force herself into a relationship with our child. I'm not comfortable with this because if my mom and I weren't speaking, I doubt my husband would even speak to her, let alone let her come to visit even the hour or so every few months I "allow."

Quotation marks on "allow" because I am in this FOG that I just learned about and never had a name for. I was diagnosed with GAD years ago, only ever by a family physician and have never been to therapy, but I think it fits. I did try medications a couple times but the side effects were much worse than just dealing with it, so I just try to work on it myself. I used to use dangerous, unhealthy coping mechanisms but I'm finally free of those chains and being a mother is much more important to me than returning to bad habits.


A big problem is that I have always been something of a people pleaser, brought up to be kind and not hurt anyone's feelings, plus also had a wonderful relationship with both sets of grandparents, all of whom I miss and remember fondly. I'm stuck between wanting my little one to have that happy family dynamic and not really wanting there to be too much interaction at all with the stress and PD on both sides... Especially my toxic mother-in-law, though I'm still pretty far from, say, overnights with my own parents.

I also have empathy in spades, so it's difficult to not see another person's viewpoint, even if I may be "assigning" it based on how I feel... Like "it would be so terrible if my child didn't want to talk to me and I couldn't see my grandchildren," but not really think enough about how that other mother won't consider (and especially not apologize for!)  the reasons behind it, or her own role/accountability. So I'm torn and it's hard to stay strong and just take a hard stance and say "you will only have a relationship with my child if you repair the one with your own, and that's between you two. Stop putting me in the middle."

It sounds so good in theory but I just can't make myself say it. I really hope I can at least find some support here and similar stories. I'm sure ours is not really unique, but I don't have anyone to talk in everyday life to about it. I've thought about therapy but between work and being a mom I don't have much extra time so I wanted to try this first

[blunk]

Welcome Molly!

Your situation sounds so difficult, I am sorry you are dealing with multiple pwPD. It is so hard to face the idea that our families cannot be "normal". Simple things like spending time with grandparents, that most families take for granted, becomes so complicated when a PD is thrown in the mix.

I would recommend that you take a look at the toolbox tab, there is so much great information there. For myself, I found the Top 100 Traits, Medium Chill, Gray Rock, and No JADE to be extremely helpful in my interactions when I was still married to my bpdxh. There is also information on LC, VLC, and NC. I have been NC for 7+ years, and I can honestly say that it has been the best thing for my mental health. I do understand that your dynamic is different, as these you are dealing with relatives.

In addition to the toolbox, there is so much wisdom and empathy that comes from the site members. I look forward to hearing more of your story, and offering support in any way that I can.

[Starboard Song]

Welcome to Out of the FOG. We get it.

I personally am now 7 years NC from my in-laws. When we went NC, they lost their contact with my son, then only 12. Those were hard decisions and hard days, and it can put stress on a marriage: I feel all that pain.

Do head over to the Toolbox, and check out the What To Do pages. Based on your story, I'd direct you straight to My Stuff / Your Stuff, and Boundaries. There really is a path through the pain to a more stable place. For some of us, that is a stable place where we still engage with a person we believe has a PD, but we do so maybe at a reduced level (see Medium Chill, or Very Low Contact), or with new strong boundaries. Others, like myself, end up at NC. Boundaries may be inadministerable, or the hurt too great.

I am glad you found us. Stay ever so close with that DH, care for that child, but also establish a world in which all of you can thrive.

Be good. Be strong.

[NarcKiddo]

Hello and welcome.

There is much to address in your post but I am short on time so will simply touch on the issue that seems to be the main one in your post; name whether or not toxic MIL should be allowed to see your child.

My experience is generally speaking "once a PD always a PD" but I don't think this necessarily means that all PDs are completely toxic to all other people.

My maternal grandmother was a terrible woman. She certainly had at least a PD but was probably a fully fledged psychopath. However, she had a decent relationship with my younger sister. She liked my sister, bought her nice things and took her on fancy holidays. My mother allowed this (probably too scared not to) but my sister always had an enjoyable time with our grandmother. My sister and I were young enough and close enough at the time that she must have been telling me the truth about having had a happy time.

When you know somebody has issues you obviously need to consider the welfare of a child as paramount, but I don't necessarily think you need to cut off a relationship altogether. Of course it needs to be monitored and managed and red flags need to be taken very seriously.

How does your husband feel about the contact between your child and his mother?

[Molly Grue]

Thank you all so much for the kind welcome and support! I'm so sorry to hear that you've also had to deal with similar situations but it's heartening to know there are others who have been through it and have some personal insight to share with me.

I really appreciate the suggestions of the resources here!! Until recently I'd been just trying to take it day by day with the hope things would just get better... But most things are not resolving themselves so I realized I have to be more proactive and learn whatever I can to try to improve my mental health and how I handle myself and my situations. I'll definitely go check out the toolbox and the other links and techniques you've all suggested. I have been sort of intuitively doing Gray Rock for awhile now, though I didn't realize until recently there was a name for it... I just knew it's best to not "feed" narcissists and that I should provide as little ammunition as possible. With MIL particular, I mostly speak when spoken to but as little as possible. I no longer offer very involved answers and don't just chat away about my son or life in general, and try not to feel pressured to fill silence.

I do appreciate the viewpoints of either having NC/LC or still letting there be a relationship as long as I'm vigilant of red flags and not letting things develop in a way I don't want.

NarcKiddo, in response to your question about how my husband feels... Well, it's difficult. He doesn't mind if she sees our son as long as he's not here, and I'm present. He (and his dad (the first husband of many) have both said that MIL has never had any idea how to deal with babies. I think I mentioned that her mother mostly raised DH, MIL decided a few weeks into his life that she'd go get a job. Of course I don't know exactly how his infant times were but it sounds like she wasn't very involved. DH definitely wouldn't want her to take our son anywhere or be alone with him, we had no other choice but for her to babysit once for about 4 hours when he was maybe a year old and when we got back she couldn't have run out any faster and told me later how exhausted she was.

I tell him every time she's texted me, and tried to say things like "this is your mother, if it were mine I doubt you'd want to be spending any time with her," that it's really uncomfortable for me, etc... He honestly won't engage with me much about it.

I recently told him how much she's been saying she thinks about us and that she seems to be reconsidering her statement that she wouldn't reconcile with him. I asked point blank if he'd want to talk to her ever again and he basically sighed and said "I wish she'd just stick with what she said." Well, me too, but she's not and it feels like she's stalking me. Kind of feels like he's washed his hands of the situation and lets it be my problem, which I don't appreciate but can't seem to talk him into dealing with it.  I wish he'd either try to work things out or tell her to stop contacting me. When things got bad I was a little too non-committal and didn't say flat out that I didn't want a relationship if the two of them didn't have one and I'm too much of a pushover to stand up for myself. One of her recent passive aggressive posts was a meme saying something like "at least you keep trying, most people don't have the courage to try," and I feel like she thinks she's going to make me realize how persistent she is and that must mean she loves us but the "keep trying" makes me want to dig in my heels even more.

[notrightinthehead]

I am sorry you have to deal with this situation. Is there any way you could take back control over how much interaction have with your MIL? If you find it hard to directly tell her you want less contact, which I totally understand and would not want to do either,  is there any way you can fade away gently? Not answer phone, not reply to texts, not call back, not reply to email, be busy, have other committments - you know the drill.
Seems like your h has made his choice and now you can make your choice too.

[Molly Grue]

fade away gently?

Thank you for the kind words! I do think I'm going to try to do this more. I've already been taking longer to reply though I haven't fully stopped. There's a big part of me that feels guilty because she HAS helped us in the past and I feel like she holds that over my head... Though we've helped her a lot in turn, too. I've definitely started being "busy" more often and have avoided the last couple requests (demands) for visits. I'm trying not to be a total jerk around the Christmas holiday, though I do plan to tell her I don't want/expect any gifts for my son... I expect she will still buy him something but if she asks what he'd like, I'll tell her not to. I don't want it to seem like I'm just letting her come over so she can show how "generous" she is, but I understand holiday visits mean a lot to people. But after we're through that, I'm going to make more of an effort to just not be available. Hopefully it works... I'd like to think she's getting the point but it may come down to actually having to be straightforward.

[LemonLime]

Welcome, Molly Grue!
I would recommend checking out Jerry Wise on You Tube.   He talks a lot about self-differentiation and family systems.  It's free and it might help with some foundational pieces that just help us all have clearer vision about how we want to be in relation to others.   How to set boundaries, etc.   He clearly "gets" PDs and refers to Narcs, etc.   I've found him very very helpful in reminding me of what is normal.  Good stuff.
Good luck to you and please continue to update us.

[Molly Grue]

Hi LemonLime! Thanks so much, I just subscribed to his channel and am going to check out some videos when the little one goes to sleep. At a glance I already see several I want to check out, so I really appreciate the suggestion.