Setting boundaries versus punishing

[Sneezy]

I do feel like we know each other since we've had such similar experiences! The biggest reason I log into this site its to see how you're doing!

Thank you, dear friend - your advice over the years has been invaluable 

I am pretty sure our mothers must have been related.  And maybe Woman Interrupted's Didi was related to them both, too.  It sure sounds like they were all cut from the same cloth.

Keep the book recommendations coming - I am putting all of them on my Christmas wish list.  Although maybe I'd better not send that wish list to my mom 

[Cat of the Canals]

I'll definitely be reading both!

[Psuedonym]

I consider you a dear friend as well, Sneezy! And I often think of WomanInterrupted and try to channel what she would say, as Didi was a very similar character, wasn't she?  I know all PDs are a lot to deal with but I do believe the clingy/helpless/angry waif is a special kind of hell, because they're bound and determined to drag you down to the bottom with them when you fail in non-voluntary assignment to fix everything.

I know I've mentioned Gabor Mate before and how insightful he is. In case you're needing to bolster your resolve about putting your own needs first–and who doesn't–here he is an interview (it should go right to the correct part) where he's talking about who gets seriously ill and why: https://youtu.be/KWz9I-7TAcs?t=1332

Spoiler alert, here a summary of the 4 characteristics of people who often get sick:

• Put other peoples emotional needs compulsively ahead of their own
• Overly identify with duty, role, and responsibility instead of the needs of the self
• Repress healthy anger
• Believe that they're responsible for other peoples feelings and can never let them down

The good news is that once you realize these things, you can change not only your emotional health, but your physical health as well. So not only is it not selfish, its absolutely essential to your physical and emotional wellbeing.

[Hepatica]

Hi Sneezy,

Your mom is so lucky to have you, and when i say that, I am not meaning that you have any responsibility toward her. That is something for you to decide. Maybe you will tweak it and find the right amt. of time you can spend with her, or maybe you'll take a full break? It's so individual to the situation.

But don't relationships in general need to be give and take? As I was, it sounds like you are meant to listen to every one of her ailments and woes. Imagine having a friend who lays their whole life problems on you and never asks eventually, so how are you doing? This is the strange thing about dysfunctional family. The word family seems to outweigh the acts of dysfunction. But when you are feeling overwhelmed and down for days after an interaction with your mom, you are obviously being depleted. She is taking and refusing to give. Or she is so self-involved she doesn't even see other people's needs. That is heartbreaking for you. Every relationship should be mostly equal in the giving department.

I would hope, ideally, and with love in mind, that I would want to ask my child how he is doing? How is life? And I would relish in listening. I am so interested to see how he is doing. Because I love him. Why our parents don't do that, who the heck knows?

My mother depleted me to the point where I was in bed for days after one particular visit. And I so much wanted what you want, to love her and to have that mother daughter love. I really wanted to give to her. But there was one day I came home and I was so overwhelmed after seeing her, I felt like I no longer wanted to live. I was in bed for days. And that is when I knew that was it for me. It was dangerous for me to do what I was doing.

It's come down to what is in my circle of control. I cannot control her self-obsessed behaviour. So now I am trying really hard to be the loving parent to myself that she was not able to be for me. I watch how I speak to myself inside my own head. I speak lovingly. I protect myself. I imagine an older, wiser me being the mother I do not have.

I still feel heartbroken about my mother. I wish she had got what she needed to be a stronger, more outwardly focussed person. I feel very sad when I think about it. But it's out of my control. I cannot be that person for her. She would literally take me down without a second thought as to why I was down. She has zero awareness of her effect on me. It's completely bizarre.

Perhaps remind yourself that you cannot rescue her, or ever have that relationship. And maybe begin to offer all that love you have to give to the parts inside of you that need love and attention. You deserve it. You sound like such a lovely person.

[Sneezy]

Hepatica - Thank you so much for your kind words and support.  You are absolutely right when you say that my mom would take me down without a second thought.  She really has the emotional maturity of a toddler (or sometimes of a difficult teen). 

I still haven't figured out how much time I want to invest in a relationship with my mom.  As you say, it is so individual to the situation.  There are time when it makes sense to spend more time with her - for example, I did help her finish up her Christmas shopping last week.  It was one of those times where a couple hours invested up front was going to save many hours of angst down the road.  And I do care about the people she is sending gifts to and want everything to get to them on time and nicely wrapped (and yes, I fully recognize the co-dependency of that last sentence  ).

I think what I want, for now, is lower contact.  But mostly I want contact on my terms.  That sounds selfish to say.  But I'm the one who is still working and I'm the one who does the driving.  So it seems that I should get to decide when we get together and how much time we spend and where we go.

I also would like my mom to stop calling all the time, but since that will never happen, I am going to have to learn to ignore most of her calls.  Yesterday was a good example.  Mom took our city's paratransit bus to visit a friend.  And they got stuck in traffic on the way home.  Mom left me the most anguished telephone message.  She was sooooooo upset.  She didn't think she was ever going to get home.  It was truly a heartbreaking, dramatic, and on the verge of ridiculous message.  I played it for my DH, who just rolled his eyes and said "welcome to adulthood - traffic sucks."  But to Mom - it was just shocking that she should have to wait in a traffic jam.  She alternated between being the sad victim of the story and being the indignant queen who expected me to come and fix the problem.  I'm still not sure what she thought I could do about it.  But it's a prime example of how she thinks.  And so I ignored that message.  I didn't cause the problem and I couldn't fix it.

My mother depleted me to the point where I was in bed for days after one particular visit. And I so much wanted what you want, to love her and to have that mother daughter love. I really wanted to give to her. But there was one day I came home and I was so overwhelmed after seeing her, I felt like I no longer wanted to live. I was in bed for days. And that is when I knew that was it for me. It was dangerous for me to do what I was doing.

This is so sad.  And downright scary.  I'm happy for you that you saw the danger in your mother's treatment of you.  Take care of yourself always 

[Cat of the Canals]

Mom left me the most anguished telephone message.  She was sooooooo upset.  She didn't think she was ever going to get home.  It was truly a heartbreaking, dramatic, and on the verge of ridiculous message.  I played it for my DH, who just rolled his eyes and said "welcome to adulthood - traffic sucks." 

I am a huge advocate for visual voicemail! While I can still "read" my mother's tone of voice in her messages, it's still different than actually hearing it. Most phone providers have an app for it. If not, there are free apps (I use YouMail) that can do it as well.