Setting boundaries versus punishing

[Sneezy]

This quote is from a recent post that I didn't want to hijack with my story.  But I need help understanding this whole topic better, so here goes:

Silent Treatment is when we stop communicating with someone as a form of punishment. No Contact is not a form of punishment: it is a decision that we can no longer safely engage with the other party to any degree, and it is NOT intended to teach them anything or to change their behavior. When we go NC, I believe we should no longer care whether they change, get better, attack us behind our backs, or are happy in life.

Boundaries are expressions of what we will or will not do, or engage with. They are not rules for other people to follow, but some people can be so toxic that it is nearly impossible to engage with them without violating your own boundaries.

If you politely end a conversation or stop replying to a written thread because it is inappropriate, that is a boundary. If you decide to go dark for a week or two because you are so angry and feel they deserve it, that is a Silent Treatment.

I need help understanding this, as I am just not sure if I am setting boundaries or attempting to punish and/or change my mom's behavior.  I have set a new boundary recently.  My mom sometimes (and it's getting more frequent) goes completely ballistic.  "Something" will happen - it can be real or imagined or partially real, but blown completely out of proportion (such as the time maintenance came into her apartment without alerting her first).  She then ramps up the drama, blows up my phone, cries, rants, gaslights, says things that make no sense, etc.  One time her behavior was so off the wall that I called 911 thinking she was having a stroke (the EMT assessed mom as having extreme anxiety, not a stroke, no real surprise there).  Another time, a manager got called in early on a Sunday morning to deal with mom, because the front desk person had no idea how to handle her.

After the storm passes, it is always my fault for not taking her out, not calling enough, etc.  And of course she will further blame me because I just don't understand how her nerves get, and on and on.  My new boundary, which I have stated clearly to my mom is that when the next episode starts I am not playing.  I will not answer my phone, I will not drive over to her apartment to comfort her.  No more making coffee and hovering and begging her to eat and take her medication.  No more attention.  Rather, I am going to lie low until it passes.  And the reason for this is because nothing I do makes it any better, but getting caught up in mom's whirlwind of catastrophe hurts my mental health enough that I feel ill for days and can't sleep.

So, is this a boundary or a punishment?  From my perspective, it is essential to save my own sanity.  But from mom's perspective, I am certain it will feel like a punishment.  Which is it?  And deep down, if I'm being completely honest, I suppose I am hoping that my boundary will change mom's behavior.  Maybe she will think twice before going on a tear and blowing everything up. 

[moglow]

If you were doing it to get back at or hurt her, I'd call that punishment or being vindictive; this is self preservation for you so boundaries. Probably WAY overdue like the rest of us. Maybe she'll adjust, maybe not, but that's for her to decide. You stepping back and refusing to engage in ugliness? Your stuff. How she takes it? Her stuff.

It is blurry, I know. I look at it this way - my boundaries are all about MY behavior and how I respond to things, not forcing anything on or expectations of others. Silent treatment to me feels like pooching out my lips, refusing to communicate and "see how she likes THIS!" You're not doing anything TO her, but rather FOR yourself. You're still not responsible for how she responds, any more than she is with yours.

And the reason for this is because nothing I do makes it any better, but getting caught up in mom's whirlwind of catastrophe hurts my mental health enough that I feel ill for days and can't sleep.

This. Her holding you responsible for *her* behavior? Childish. Petulant. You taking control of your own and stepping back to regroup [rather than spew it all over her in return]? Responsible. Thoughtful. Compassionate.

[Starboard Song]

My new boundary, which I have stated clearly to my mom is that when the next episode starts I am not playing.  I will not answer my phone, I will not drive over to her apartment to comfort her.  No more making coffee and hovering and begging her to eat and take her medication.  No more attention.  Rather, I am going to lie low until it passes.  And the reason for this is because nothing I do makes it any better, but getting caught up in mom's whirlwind of catastrophe hurts my mental health enough that I feel ill for days and can't sleep.

So, is this a boundary or a punishment? 

Well first off, please don't take my shortcut definitions too... definitively. These are complex things and no two-sentence definition will cover the ground. Second, thank you for starting this new thread, so that the old one could stay on track: you're awesome.

That part in my definitions about whether we are trying to change or manipulate the other person is all about Silent Treatment v. No Contact. I emphasize this because ceasing communications with anyone is such a terrible way to improve things, unless you are going for silence.

And boundaries certainly can change another person's behavior. When we set up good boundaries, we are sometimes expressing ourselves, and other times we are setting up new incentives. The other party learns what does and does not work. If cursing at you no longer "works," for instance, perhaps they will try NOT cursing at you. Boundaries are a great way to incent a behavioral change in others. But they do so by taking our own action and giving them a choice.

I believe proper boundaries should be enforced with politeness and cheer if at all possible. You are no longer going to go into overdrive during these episodes. You didn't even need to announce this in advance: you could just have done it when the time came. But it was OK to let her know.

We can't judge ourselves by a toxic or disordered person's subjective experience. Of course we can't: they are toxic and disordered. She probably would see anything other than exactly what she wants as a terrible attack. These folks sometimes seem like Gollum on a soft leash, throwing himself to the ground calling "it hurts us! it hurts us!" The question is not how she feels but how you think an average person should feel.

The next time one of these episodes occurs, you may follow your new boundary. You'll be silent and unengaged. Maybe a day later or so, you might call or text or whatever y'all do, and cheerily ask "I saw you were calling. I wasn't convenient to the phone. I trust everything worked out" or some such palaver. She'll be angry, but you won't be. You'll be as bright and innocent and kind as can be. "Goodness, I didn't mean to insult you. These things happen from time to time and you always seem to work it out. You're so good at that. Well done. I was just busy and couldn't get involved."

Now, you have to make these decisions for yourself, and I am curious what others will say, but I think a flock of white lies like that helps the medicine go down. She'll probably be furious, but you WILL NEVER ENGAGE like that. You simply weren't able to help at the moment and that is that.

Remember: you'll be setting up the same new set of incentives whether you are direct or not. Your goals seem to be (1) not be be involved in this crap, and (2) to not have to argue about it. Take the actions that best accomplish both goals.

[moglow]

I think a flock of white lies like that helps the medicine go down. She'll probably be furious, but you WILL NEVER ENGAGE like that. You simply weren't able to help at the moment and that is that.

[as mo mumble mumbles to herself: and I won't be available NEXT TIME either!]

Kind of look at is as: Is it your drama? No. Is it something you can possibly do anything about? No. It's not that you don't care that she's twisted herself into a pretzel, you simply can't fix it - and not one reasonable heartfelt explanation will do when she's spinning. Smile and wave from a distance, back off further as needed until explosion is over.

I've seen it suggested that for every shout, you speak more quietly. Temper goes up, you notch yours back. Don't return [encourage] more ugly words and tone. Smile when you speak. And work on our internal inclination to JADE [justify, argue, defend, or explain] - it's a brand new day and aren't those birds/flowers/children lovely? Find appreciation wherever you can and keep on looking for it.

[Big Bear]

Sneezy,

Thanks for sharing.  I would say that you are describing a healthy boundary.  Your genuine desire is to stay safe and protect yourself.  Motivation is so important here.  You are choosing to take a step back in order to protect, not hurt.  You are protecting yourself. 

Forgive me if this analogy is not totally applicable, but I can't get it out of my mind:

In my first aid class, we were taught not to jump into the water with a drowning person.  As her arms are flailing around, she may pull you under the water.  Now, you are both in danger!  Now we have two people who need to be rescued!  Instead, we were taught to hold out a pole or life preserver for the drowning person to hold onto.  This way we safely offer help from a distance.

It could be like that with someone with severe anxiety or paranoia.  If we get too close, we may get pulled down with them.  We can stay on dry ground and offer support from a safe distance.  That distance could be a time delay, limited contact, or at times even physical distance.  But the purpose is in order to stay safe so that we could continue to be a caring presence.  By continuing to be a safe, stable person on shore, holding out a pole or life preserver, you are much more helpful than if you were also drowning in the water.  Maybe she would eventually reach out for that pole, maybe not.  But the thing to consider is how to keep yourself strong, stable and healthy while on shore.  This may actually be the most caring thing to do. 

For what it's worth,
Big Bear 

[NarcKiddo]

It is a boundary. How you enforce it could turn into a punishment depending on how the situation goes. Let me give an example to (I hope) illustrate my thinking here.

Mom; there's a maintenance man in my apartment
Sneezy; good, glad to hear the work is getting done
Mom; but he didn't tell me he was coming
Sneezy; contact head of maintenance and say that they need to let you know in advance when they are coming
Mom; rant rant rant
Sneezy; I can't suggest anything further and this has turned into one of your rants. I've told you I cannot deal with your rants. I'll call you later/tomorrow/next week.

Later/tomorrow/next week you call as promised.

Sneezy; Just calling to check the maintenance job was finished satisfactorily.
Mom; rant rant rant
Sneezy; I told you I can't do anything further and I won't tolerate being ranted at. I'll call you next week/next month/next year...

Since you are not NC with her I think it is reasonable to remind her of your boundary and state when you will next risk calling to see how things are. But rants are not tolerated. Where it would veer into punishment, I think, is if when she goes into her first rant you simply put the phone down on her and let her stew indefinitely. There may come a time when that is totally appropriate and necessary for you if she continues to rant every time you call.

[Starboard Song]

But the thing to consider is how to keep yourself strong, stable and healthy while on shore.  This may actually be the most caring thing to do. 

That's worth a lot. I think effective boundaries are an act of loving kindness regardless of how they may offend certain individuals. It is a great act of loving kindness to protect yourself and allow yourself to thrive for all those countless -- some unknown -- people who benefit from count on, love, need, or interact with you.

[Sneezy]

You all are the best - your comments and advice are more helpful than you can imagine 

I think effective boundaries are an act of loving kindness regardless of how they may offend certain individuals.

I don't feel very loving or kind towards my mom right now.  She has been perfectly awful for much of the second half of this year.  But I think it's ok if I don't feel loving or kind, as long as my boundaries and actions come from as loving and kind of a place as I can find.  I can't act with angry justification, I can't be mean-spirited.  I might feel angry and mean at the moment, but the boundaries and actions have to come from my zen-place, not my pissed-off-place.

[Starboard Song]

I fantasize about my FIL calling, even after all these years. I now imagine beginning by saying that my goal is for him to end the conversation feeling better informed and better understood than he began.

Of course, I would then give no quarter on the facts and we would not reconcile. But I genuinely hope he'd end the call with the opportunity to understand us.

[moglow]

What's sad is that we're even contemplating boundaries as a bad thing, that we're where we are in life having never been allowed them. We genuinely believed they come from a place of frustration and anger rather than the normal give and take of our other relationships. It's just so unnatural.

[Cat of the Canals]

I think this question is usually easily answered by whether it's centered on you and your needs. What I hear from your most recent posts, loud and clear, is that you need a break.

Of course it'd be nice if she took a hint and grew a shred of empathy, but I think you know enough by now to know that's not going to happen, so I can't see this being an attempt to "teach her a lesson." Nor do you strike me as the vindictive type, which is why I don't think it's punitive in nature.

My mother is a big fan of the Silent Treatment as a form of punishment. And one of the ways I can tell it's always punitive and never about her "needing a break" is that the second she gets the inkling that I'm not responding to the ST the way she wants (by begging to know what I've done wrong or begging for forgiveness), she gives up the ST and reverts to rugsweeping and lovebombing.

[Psuedonym]

Hey Sneezy!

I don't feel very loving or kind towards my mom right now.  She has been perfectly awful for much of the second half of this year.  But I think it's ok if I don't feel loving or kind

It is okay. It is more than okay. In fact feeling loving and kind towards someone who is regularly abusing you, and that's what she's doing with her raging and guilt tripping and gaslighting and, as you've mentioned in a previous post, utter disregard for your mental health, is a form of gaslighting yourself, because why would you feel that way? One of the things that children of PDs learn over many years is to disregard and ignore their own feelings and intuition, much to our disservice. You have a right to feel angry and don't need to apologize for it.

I would focus your loving and kind feelings towards yourself. For example: is it loving and kind to yourself to turn off your phone for a week because you need a mental health break? Then that's what you should do. It's something that will feel weird because you're so used to burying your feelings and jumping whenever she says jump, which is exactly why you should practice it.

I think the boundaries vs. punishment distinction is a bit of a trap honestly. Here is an example of why:

You: Put your phone on mute for a week because you need a mental health break.
Your mother: Why are you punishing me? (hint, this is the only thing she's going to think because, as previously stated, she's incapable of considering your needs or emotional state)
You (who've had your mother's gaslighting drilled into your head for the past XX number of years): Am I doing this for my own mental health or am I just being (selfish, childish, immature, vindictive, ungrateful, insert your mother's favorite accusations here). It's a question you're going to be asking yourself over and over again.

Instead I might practice asking myself something like; What do I hope to get out of this action/boundary. If the answer is you hope your mother is going to change X behavior, a) take that with a grain of salt and b) ask yourself why you want her to change X. If the answer is 'because it would bring me greater peace and tranquility'  then ask yourself if you could achieve that without her changing her behavior (spoiler alert: she won't!) If your original action/boundary would help you achieve that, then there's your answer.

[Sneezy]

Oh Psuedonym, you always make me think 

I read your response and I agree with it 100%.  But at the very end, you say "ask yourself why you want her to change X."  And the answer *should* be, as you say, because it would bring me greater peace and tranquility.  But if I'm being honest, I want my mom to change because (as another topic a while back said) I want my mommy.  I want the mother/daughter relationship that we never had.  I encouraged my mom to move near me because for many, many, many years I totally bought her victim story.  I told close friends that my mother was abused by her husband (because that's what she told me).  I felt sorry for my poor, unappreciated, mistreated mother.  And I thought I could change all that.  I could take care of her and nurture her and change all her sadness into rainbows and unicorns.  And then we would have that Hallmark movie relationship where we'd go out for coffee and go shopping and laugh and share confidences and share clothes and be best friends.  Ok, you get the picture.  I had quite the fantasy built up in my mind.  And I can't seem to let it go.  I keep thinking that if I set the right boundaries and enforce them just right, all will be well and I will have the relationship I want with my mom.

And I know, logically, that it will never be.  So I need to work on "greater peace and tranquility," because that is the best I can hope for.  And it's really not a bad outcome.  I need to count my blessings and realize that what I have is enough, and even if I will never have the mother-daughter relationship I want with my mom, that's ok. 

[Cat of the Canals]

P.S. Wanted to add, after thinking on this more, that I think there's an important distinction to be made between punishment and consequences.

I think we have a tendency to treat them as synonyms when, in fact, they are different. Per an article on Psych Central:

"A consequence is meant to teach, maintain accountability, and maintain safety. A punishment, however, is something quite different. The goal of a punishment is to shame, guilt, impose authority, or harm. The motivation behind a punishment comes from a place of emotion and a need to maintain control."

I think that "comes from a place of emotion" is especially apt because of what you said above:

I might feel angry and mean at the moment, but the boundaries and actions have to come from my zen-place, not my pissed-off-place.

This, to me, is how you know it's a consequence and not a punishment... the fact that you are able to separate the anger and frustration (which is, of course, something most PDs fail spectacularly at) and react calmly.

And I think Starboard's notion of loving/caring/kindness comes into this. It's enormously caring, in my opinion, to say to someone, "I'm really overwhelmed/angry/upset right now, and I need some time alone to process it."

[Starboard Song]

 

Cat, you are so right. This punishment v consequences idea is what I tried to get at with this line:

Boundaries are a great way to incent a behavioral change in others. But they do so by taking our own action and giving them a choice.

You combine this notion of ball's-in-your-court with My Stuff / Your Stuff, and you get it: this is not about punishment, or training, or forcing. I am being me and now you get to go be you. It would be awesome if we find we can be together on that basis.

[Sneezy]

Cat, I like how you combine boundaries with my stuff/your stuff.  That is a good way to look at it.  I am going to do what I do, and I bear the responsibility for my actions.  Mom gets to do what she wants to do and she bears the responsibilities for her actions.  I think I've tried to express this to mom, as I've often told her "I'm doing all that I can do for you, I'm sorry if that's not enough."  It's time to stop saying that, though, as it kind of implies that I'm not doing enough.  The truth is I'm doing what I *want* to do, not everything I possible *could* do.  And mom can react to that how she will.  She can't force me to do more, all she can do is decide what she will and won't do.  She doesn't get to decide what I will and won't do.

[Psuedonym]

Hey Sneezy,

I do feel like we know each other since we've had such similar experiences! The biggest reason I log into this site its to see how you're doing!

Something in your last reply reminded me of a book I read, and unfortunately I've read so many I'm still trying to figure out which one it is...  but in the meantime, the essence of the idea is this:

When you grow up being parentified and made responsible for someone else's emotional well being, you end up believing that you have an almost superhero like ability to fix someone else, because the alternative belief: that you are helpless to change the situation, is worse. It's the same reason that kids need to believe when their parents get divorced that it's their fault. This made no sense to me at first, but the psychology behind it makes sense: if something is your fault, at least you could have changed the outcome, and as a kid feeling undeserved guilt and shame is still better than feeling hopeless and powerless.

Anyhoo, the point in the book is that, as much as the realization that you'll never have the mom you wanted and deserved makes you sad, having to come to that realization about yourself, that you never had the super power to fix somebody else, is also sad and really tough to accept. I think that might be part of the reason you're having trouble letting go of the fantasy. But it also can be empowering, because when you truly accept that truth you can also truly believe that there is nothing you can do to change who your mother is.

Now I'm going to try to figure out what book that was...it might have been one on irrational guilt.

[Cat of the Canals]

Anyhoo, the point in the book is that, as much as the realization that you'll never have the mom you wanted and deserved makes you sad, having to come to that realization about yourself, that you never had the super power to fix somebody else, is also sad and really tough to accept. I think that might be part of the reason you're having trouble letting go of the fantasy. But it also can be empowering, because when you truly accept that truth you can also truly believe that there is nothing you can do to change who your mother is.

Oof, that hit home. I'd definitely be interested in the name of the book if you figure it out.

[Starboard Song]

Cat, this is at the core of Radical Acceptance, by Brach. But I don't think this is what psuedonym has in mind.

[Psuedonym]

Radical Acceptance is an awesome book, Starboard Song! Highly recommend that one. Cat, I'm 90% sure the book I was thinking of is Escaping Toxic Guilt by Susan Carrell: Escaping Toxic Guilt

It's a very helpful read in any case!