How and when did you discover they had a PD?

[rockandhardplace]

Asking the question as a parent of children with a PD father. Undiagnosed and very good at wearing his mask. I don't know how to talk to them without labelling him and if I do that it is sure to backfire. I let my youngest know his behaviour is wrong when I witness things but with my older ones it's just subtle control and I am rarely around at the same time to see anything I can address. I didn't address his behaviour when they were little as I was so deep in the FOG. I need to leave but I'm scared they'll side with him. I guess I'm mostly scared he'll alienate them strongly and they won't ever recognise his disorder and just grow up damaged and continue the cycle into the next generation.

[DaisyGirl77]

I'm answering this as a child of uNM & eF (with some heavy fleas due to his own uBPD mother) as I'm a perpetual spinster.

As a child, I knew very early on that something wasn't right with uNM.  I'd say somewhere between 4 & 6 years old is when that realization started coming in, but was solidified as my younger sisters & I grew older & the favoritism & abuse became more blatant.  But it wasn't until I spent nearly 4 years with eF's mother that I realized something was truly, unfixably, wrong with her & my dad's family system, & that's when I started googling.  ~9 years ago, after googling behaviors I'd noticed with my dad's uBPD mother, I landed here & that's when everything clicked for her.  It took a couple more years for me to realize that uNM was narcissistic, & that came about after I finally went permanently NC with her 7 years ago.

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Edited because I didn't realize there was more to your post at first (it's been a very long day & I'm tired so have been skimming, lol).  As far as your fears go:  You might, or you might not.  My parents were middle school sweethearts & divorced after something like 33 years together/25? years married.  I was living with eF's mom at the time while my sisters were living with uNM.  We (his mother & I) had several devastated phone calls from my dad after their court dates in which he expressed that he felt uNM was trying to kill him.  To wreck him/hurt him as deeply as possible.  (uNM has a vindictive streak several miles wide.)  As you do when you receive calls like that, there was a lot of sympathy & soothing noises made during that conversation, as well as a lot of support & hugs over the phone.  I never told him, but I didn't choose a "side".  I decided to become Switzerland when it became clear that their marriage was on the rocks, even before they announced they were divorcing.  I loved both my parents & I wanted them both to feel like they could be supported by me in whatever way they needed me to support them.

uNM chose not to call to talk about this stuff.  For her, the divorce was off the table as a topic, which was fine.  I never pried.  (She later told me that she thought I'd chosen a side simply because I was living with eF's mother & she couldn't "trust" me, which is the dumbest damned thing I'd ever heard & told her so.  Anyway...)  It wasn't until I'd gotten out of my dad's uBPD mother's house that my sisters let slip that I didn't "know what Dad did" to uNM, & they hated him & never wanted to see him again.  I "never saw" how uNM was after those court dates so of course I'd side with eF.  (Insert eye roll here.)

All this to say:  My parents' divorce happened about 13 years ago.  Of the three of us, I was the one most willing to listen & support both of my parents.  My sisters weren't.  They reacted badly when they announced they'd split for good.  I remember thinking on several occasions they'd regressed emotionally to somewhere around 10-14 years old, even though one was in her early 20s & the other was nearly done with high school.  I think my stance was helped by the fact that I'm the scapegoat of the family, Sis1 is uNM's golden child, & Sis2 was uNM's second favorite & neither of them ever got anything nasty from uNM like I did.  I had a lot more clarity with the dynamics, & I was out of the house so I had the breathing space they didn't.

Your kids might choose a side.  They might not.  But I'd take care to ensure that you don't use them as a therapist.  I'd also be prepared for your uPDH(?) to engage in parental alienation & consider what steps you'd add to the final custody document to prevent that, including whatever enforceable consequences for either party if it's discovered this is happening.  I'd also consider adding the right of first refusal clause so it'll prevent him from introducing your children to a revolving door of women before he settles down/stabilizes with his next partner.  (It's a clause meant for several things, but this is one of them, I think.)  & what you want to do if your kid(s) want piercings & things: Both parents must approve?  Only one must approve?  What if they ask their future stepmom/dad to take them--would this be considered permission by the parent with current custody time of the children?  Lots of things to think about.

But in my humble & honest opinion...  Do what you need to do to get YOURSELF safe.  Don't stay in a situation because you're afraid you'll lose your kids.  You can't protect your kids if you are drowning.  Save yourself & everything else will fall into place.

[11JB68]

I don't know your kids ages (or maturity level) and this is certainly a debated and nuanced issue, so I won't tell you what to do or suggest that you do what I did.
I was very foggy for my first....10-15 years of marriage.  Ds was born 7 years in.  I almost left updh when ds was about....5? I found this site when ds was about 20 and in college. I knew that he knew things were not right.  I also felt guilty for setting a bad example by going along/ enabling.
Ds was very mature.  I sat down and had a long talk with him.  I have a lot more to say on this but too much to text on my phone.  Will try to come back tomorrow with more detail....it was a good talk and in the end I felt it was the right thing for us

[escapingman]

I will answer this as someone divorcing a uNPDw with 2 children. They are both preteens/teens and have reacted very different. The golden child has sided completely with STBX and refused any contact with me for 7 months. I don't know what is going on behind closed doors, but I am pretty sure I am being alienated (I was already before finally separated). The scapegoat child didn't want to pick a side,  which meant STBX put her in my camp - if you are not with her you have to be against. SG is now living with me knowing her mum is very abusive and don't want much to do with her.

I have read alot about this and I think it generally is the scapegoats that see the reality and can get out if the FOG whilst the golden children don't see it the same as they are receiving the false love.

My advice is save yourself, you are no good to anyone if you are broken. How to do it I don't know, but you first then kids.

[easterncappy]

I knew they were abusive but this website is what tipped me off that there is probably a psychological element to it. For 10 years I've been aware of the abuse and narcissistic traits. But narcissistic traits are common even without a full PD.

[rockandhardplace]

Daisygirl, thanks for your long reply. You seem to have a good handle on what was happening at home, but I'm curious as to whether your siblings ever recognised the dysfunction / PD's? And I guess what impact growing up with a PD parent had on you and them?

Sometimes I hear the things uPDh says to my kids and I feel totally trapped as I can't bare them growing up with only that hateful nasty selfish outlook and not even knowing what crap he's saying to them. I know his badmouthing of me is likely to get much worse but I also feel like he's already looking to them for supply now I'm harder to bait/control etc. He needs to control people or he doesn't exist. Other times I totally get the whole imperative for ME to actually escape and try and live my best life, not just for me but to at least have a chance at showing them there can be another way to live.
I suppose wanting to know how people discovered their parents weren't actually mentally healthy and that their upbringing was not "normal" is that I feel at least if they realise this at some point they can work on changing these schemas that are being laid down, break the cycle and maybe have some chance of happiness in their lives. I'm still a shell of the person I was before I met him so I can't imagine how damaged my kids are growing up like this.

[Srcyu]

I was a fully fledged adult and happily minding my own business when my estranged eldest  sibling sent a card filled with garbage about her opinion of me. It followed the recent death of bpd mother. It was motivated, ofcourse, by money. Namely bpd's estate and my inclusion in it.

But still, I was puzzled by why she would bother to send a communication after 25 years approx.

I googled it. OMG. Stuff that I never knew about poured onto my iPad screen.  Narcissist Personality Disorder, Scapegoat, Golden Child, Enabling Father, Narcissist Rage ( long buried childhood memory resurfaced - light bulb moment), Flying Monkeys.
I had the full set.

It was exciting in a way. A name for it all and I wasn't the only one it had happened to.
It's still a work in progress and sometimes the realisations of what was behind it all can briefly take my breath away.

[Liketheducks]

I ALWAYS knew something was off with my parents.    Around 10 -12 ish, I realized that this was toxic and damaging to me.   I wasn't able to do anything about it at the time.   When I put myself through college, I took advantage of the free counseling my university offer.     And, I've happily found professional help to be a game changer for me.    Since the field is always changing and evolving, I didn't get a "diagnosis" until a few years ago.   "Did you ever think that your dad might have NPD and your mom BPD?"    Um, yes......   "Because your symptoms are textbook of a child of that". 

Through the years, I've been in and out of NC and VLC.    It's taken me to middle age to really get good boundaries and safety within myself.    Both parents bad mouthed each other - they still do in their 70's.    I encourage you not to alienate your children from the other parent.   Just reinforce them in their own path.