Have grace for them!

[Pepin]

Anyone feel as though lately people are saying to offer our misbehaving elders grace because they truly didn't know any better and suffered as well?    

I really cannot wrap my head around this!  Growing up in the 70s and 80s, there were MANY good parents and families out there.  Yet these bad behaving ones are all of sudden making all this noise about how their life was hard and they went through trauma, blah, blah, blah!  The trauma could have been from their parents, immigration, alcohol, etc.  These people that the public claims we need to offer grace towards were SURROUNDED by examples of GOOD people.  How could they not know?  And my biggest question of all: WHY DO TO OTHERS WHAT WAS DONE TO YOU?  Please, someone, explain this to me!  Abusers knew exactly what they are doing and I am sick to death of being told to offer them grace.  FFS, not one abuser offered me grace during my entire healing journey.  I just don't get it.

[SonofThunder]

Hi Pepin,

There was a interesting and recent chat down the trail a bit, around the religion board campfire, started by MoGlow and it involved 'forgiveness'.  I don't believe that productive conversation was blessed by your presence.  It may have a similar topic to that of 'grace' in this thread. 

Since I contributed at that fine discussion, I believe my answers apply to this post as well, and imo, is not tied to any generation, but all generations.  Imo, the subject-matter focus of your post is "lately people are saying..", not the abusers.

Abusers (PD or no-PD) have been around since the start of humanity and will continue until humanity as we know it, ceases to exist.  The weak 'people saying' are the problem, as they probably have no backbone to self-protect against abusers, don't advocate for the abused, nor do they probably experience abuse in their own lives, so talk is cheap. Their fluffy words make them feel good about themselves and their social-status standing by promoting 'grace'.  Imo, they wouldn't last a graceful day against the deeply creative and intensely hurtful abuse that Out of the FOG members endure.  We are the real hidden hero's and we learn over time to steel our backbones in self-protection and let the chips fall where they must, which includes allowing hardship to fall upon abusers (PD or no-PD) for the abuse they dished out to us/other innocents, in full awareness of their actions, and at the expense of other humans.

Here's a link below to the forgiveness thread, should you desire to join in there as well. 

SoT

https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=93008.0

[Boat Babe]

I always bridle when people excuse racism in the older generation cos "that was then" etc. NO! Lots of older folk were militantly anti racist too.

Same with any form of child abuse. My mother would slap my face when she lost her temper with me. I was a very well behaved child btw. I remember the shock, pain and feeling of gross injustice fifty five years later. She has never apologized. If she did, I do have it in me to forgive but how can you forgive someone who doesn't acknowledge the offense? All I can do is to let go of the resentment, which only hurts me, and treat this very elderly and damaged woman with compassion. In my case, compassion means a couple of phone calls a week and a visit every six weeks or so. I have no real feelings for her one way or another but cannot abandon her to her fate because she wasn't a full on monster, just a very damaged woman who did raise me on her own. I owe her that.

[Pepin]

Thanks SoT and BoatBabe for your insight, I greatly appreciate this.  I did hop over to the other group- a group I have not participated in yet, only because I have had a bumpy relationship with religion and with regards to spirituality, I don't know where I fit in.  But there certainly is some practical advice in there and if anyone knows me, I thrive off of methodology, practicality, guidelines, rules, etc. - it's just that with PDs there seems to be no clear cut formula in dealing with them and this is why I struggle.  Therefore, everyone has their own approach. 

To dive deeper into offering grace, someone else's approach to offering grace might not be the same as mine.  I guess I am irritated that when society offers to extend grace (or forgiveness) that it is a one size fits all.  And while this seems like it fits into a mythology of sorts, it also can impart another level of damage without really understanding the list that the abuser drew from.

I do like the reference to poison ivy.   

However, I am hung up on grace/forgiveness being somewhat similar to offering an excuse along the lines of: that is just the way they are; they don't know any better; that is how it is.  Much of the information that I have gathered over the years says that abusers do indeed know exactly what they are doing.  How do I extend grace towards someone that intentionally set out to hurt me?  Especially when they had to be a part of my life like CN MIL was?  And now dealing with DH's behavior in our marriage and how she treated him?  I can sort of extend grace to DH but for CN MIL....I just don't think I am there yet.  If I had more of her backstory, maybe I could.  But ideally, that shouldn't matter but somehow it does. 

[Poison Ivy]

I think I understood why my late father-in-law treated me (and other people) badly. I pitied him. I didn't forgive him nor do I feel any need to do so.

[SonofThunder]

Thanks SoT and BoatBabe for your insight, I greatly appreciate this.  I did hop over to the other group- a group I have not participated in yet, only because I have had a bumpy relationship with religion and with regards to spirituality, I don't know where I fit in.  But there certainly is some practical advice in there and if anyone knows me, I thrive off of methodology, practicality, guidelines, rules, etc. - it's just that with PDs there seems to be no clear cut formula in dealing with them and this is why I struggle.  Therefore, everyone has their own approach. 

To dive deeper into offering grace, someone else's approach to offering grace might not be the same as mine.  I guess I am irritated that when society offers to extend grace (or forgiveness) that it is a one size fits all.  And while this seems like it fits into a mythology of sorts, it also can impart another level of damage without really understanding the list that the abuser drew from.

I do like the reference to poison ivy.   

However, I am hung up on grace/forgiveness being somewhat similar to offering an excuse along the lines of: that is just the way they are; they don't know any better; that is how it is.  Much of the information that I have gathered over the years says that abusers do indeed know exactly what they are doing.  How do I extend grace towards someone that intentionally set out to hurt me?  Especially when they had to be a part of my life like CN MIL was?  And now dealing with DH's behavior in our marriage and how she treated him?  I can sort of extend grace to DH but for CN MIL....I just don't think I am there yet.  If I had more of her backstory, maybe I could.  But ideally, that shouldn't matter but somehow it does.

Hi Pepin,

You wrote: "How do I extend grace towards someone that intentionally set out to hurt me? "

1. What is the foundational motive in your desire to extend 'grace' as you define it? 

2. What benefit do you receive from the grace motive?

3. What benefit does the abuser receive from your grace motive?

4. Is there a potential underlying negative behind the desire to extend grace, such as avoidance of a consequential reality for example, either for yourself or the other person?   

*Although my caretaking behaviors were perceived  (to all around me, not just the receiver) as positive for decades, it was really my proactive avoidance of truth. I did not have the backbone to face the truth and my caretaking was a part of my own fog creation. The abuser creatively used the grace and my shortcomings to continue the abuse and then even used it against me, proclaiming me as a hypocrite and a liar, because my eventual truth actions/reactions, didn't align with my previous caretaker (grace) actions/reactions.  This was actually 'projection' by the abuser to use my own actions/reactions against me to cover up the real truth regarding themselves. 

SoT

[bloomie]

Pepin - If I am understanding, you are seeing grace as forgiveness and a kind of clemency or removal of responsibility for the another's choices?

Even if we define grace from a Christian perspective, which I realize may not be the way you are defining grace, but might be helpful as a construct... if we define grace from God as unmerited favor in the form of love, forgiveness and sharing in the life of God, even if that is the level or kind of grace we are talking about, it doesn't remove the consequences or responsibility from us when we receive this grace from God.  We still have to live with ourselves and our choices. And so do those around us.

I can certainly understand why my own very broken, addicted and dysfunction mother was the way she was. I can have compassion and understanding for the horrendous abuse she endured as a child and how that contributed to the harmful ways she parented and didn't parent. I can choose to release the pain of that and the injustice of it. And yet, myself and my sibs live with the consequences of her choices for the rest of our lives.

I do not label her an even good enough mother. She wasn't. It took me YEARS to say that and admit it to myself.  Others, who did not truly know her and who believed the beauty of her facade would not only be shocked, but highly offended by that statement. And I have gone toe to toe with an aunt who insists I adjust my reality to hers for her comfort... that my mother may have been emotionally detached, but she sure loved us and did the best she could. Because this aunt could not imagine not loving her children fiercely. No, my mother, and so many others, didn't do the best they could. She wasn't interested at all in being a mother.

So, where does that leave me? Sitting in the ashes with my mother or accepting that it is often a very blurry line on who is good and who is not?

I don't know who 'deserves' grace or forgiveness and yes, you are right that it looks and lives out differently for each of us. There is no one size fits all. What I do know, is that I choose to live a life of compassion, grace, understanding with myself and others to the best of my ability while also living a life of wisdom, discernment, truth, boundaries and accountability. It's a rough ride sometimes, dear Pepin.  It surely is.

[moglow]

This just about broke me, hits right at the heart of it for several of us here:

I do not label her an even good enough mother. She wasn't. It took me YEARS to say that and admit it to myself.  Others, who did not truly know her and who believed the beauty of her facade would not only be shocked, but highly offended by that statement. And I have gone toe to toe with an aunt who insists I adjust my reality to hers for her comfort... that my mother may have been emotionally detached, but she sure loved us and did the best she could. Because this aunt could not imagine not loving her children fiercely. No, my mother, and so many others, didn't do the best they could. She wasn't interested at all in being a mother.

I don't excuse mine "because she did the best she could" either - she had choices, just like every other parent and person out there. I've watched my brothers and the parents they became in spite of her teachings. They chose and do better, rather than giving in to what they know.

The total lack of interest and involvement is a very painful reality and doesn't just go away. So yes, we choose to learn and practice grace for ourselves and others in the best way we know. And when we know better we do better. It won't change or excuse the "relationship" with these painfully disordered parents but it may help us find peace with it all.

[Pepin]

Thank you everyone as I work towards gaining more clarity around extending grace.  Yesterday I felt that I was on to another a ha moment....but now that seems that there is more work to do.  When I started setting boundaries with CN MIL, I was hoping to finally protect myself.  I was allowing CN MIL to be who she was.  I gave space to DH as well so that he could spend more time with her and attend to her demands.  Both of them did not take kindly to that!  DH was offended and felt that I was being unkind and CN MIL would dig her heels in even harder and go around my boundaries to get what she wanted.  I felt that I had extended grace with her but it wasn't what she wanted.  She wanted to continue hurting me according to her original agenda by forcing space between me and DH.  That her behavior never really changed, to me means that she lacked accountability or empathy for me.  It wasn't that she didn't know any better because again, she would go around my boundaries rather than to just apologize and how she could amend things or do better.  While I am certain that she lived through some horrible moments in her life that I haven't been privy to, the mere fact that she ignored her pain by inflicting additional pain on others, is very difficult to come to terms with. 

I know that if I had had the opportunity to go no contact with her, that perhaps things would have been better.  Each instance of interacting with her was technically an act of reconciliation as much as I hate to admit this.  Whereas with my own father, since I am NC with him, I am able to extend grace: he is who he is and I am not going to be a part of his world. 

[moglow]

Pepin, the only thing that helps when I get caught in that loop is to try to keep in mind that my idea of grace isn't and won't likely be the same as others [particularly disordered and/or self-involved others]. I'm not responsible for what they do with or how they feel about it. They want what they want in the exact way they want it WHEN they want it. And that's subject to change.

MY grace often tends to be along the lines of do unto others, and that applies to myself as well. Would I want and did I appreciate others beating me up, metaphorically or literally? Absolutely not. Then why do it to myself? When we learn better, we do better.

Be gentle with yourself - learning isn't necessarily a bad thing. You're growing and that's always good.

[bloomie]

Yesterday I felt that I was on to another a ha moment....but now that seems that there is more work to do.  When I started setting boundaries with CN MIL, I was hoping to finally protect myself.  I was allowing CN MIL to be who she was.  I gave space to DH as well so that he could spend more time with her and attend to her demands.  Both of them did not take kindly to that!  DH was offended and felt that I was being unkind and CN MIL would dig her heels in even harder and go around my boundaries to get what she wanted.  I felt that I had extended grace with her but it wasn't what she wanted.

Pepin... some people are part of our life package. We could get rid of the whole package or be something I see you describe here - gracious when face to face. It isn't the same as reconciling in my thinking. Showing courtesy to your mil and kindness at those times it was unavoidable to be with her, only shows the measure of the good character and core values you subscribe to. It is an honorable and yet a hard row to hoe. It can almost feel like a betrayal of ourselves, but in reality, in a marriage or partnership there are two people making decisions that we have to learn to live with as sanely as possible and still be able to look ourselves in the mirror.

It isn't possible for some of us to go NC for all kinds of reasons. You did the best you could and it was good, kind, enough. And yes, it cost you a lot that may never be fully appreciated. I just want you to know for what it is worth, I see it and I appreciate the person you are.

[Pepin]

MY grace often tends to be along the lines of do unto others, and that applies to myself as well. Would I want and did I appreciate others beating me up, metaphorically or literally? Absolutely not. Then why do it to myself? When we learn better, we do better.

Thank you for this....and it is definitely a creed I live by as well: treat others how you would want to be treated.  Other than being DH's wife and mother of his children, I found it terribly confusing to think that I was somehow in the way of CN MIL and her son.  DH didn't feel that I was in the way but he was sure hurt when I allowed them more space for each other when CN MIL made it clear that I was in HER way.  Seemingly, she had no experience in having a MIL because FIL did not have parents from a very young age!  She had FIL ALL to herself without anyone getting in the middle.  I know that was semi off tangent and maybe an excuse on my end for her behavior...but, I could never do to someone what she set out to do with me.  Bottom line: I married her favorite child and son and she was going to do her best to remove me. 

Yesterday I felt that I was on to another a ha moment....but now that seems that there is more work to do.  When I started setting boundaries with CN MIL, I was hoping to finally protect myself.  I was allowing CN MIL to be who she was.  I gave space to DH as well so that he could spend more time with her and attend to her demands.  Both of them did not take kindly to that!  DH was offended and felt that I was being unkind and CN MIL would dig her heels in even harder and go around my boundaries to get what she wanted.  I felt that I had extended grace with her but it wasn't what she wanted.

Pepin... some people are part of our life package. We could get rid of the whole package or be something I see you describe here - gracious when face to face. It isn't the same as reconciling in my thinking. Showing courtesy to your mil and kindness at those times it was unavoidable to be with her, only shows the measure of the good character and core values you subscribe to. It is an honorable and yet a hard row to hoe. It can almost feel like a betrayal of ourselves, but in reality, in a marriage or partnership there are two people making decisions that we have to learn to live with as sanely as possible and still be able to look ourselves in the mirror.

It isn't possible for some of us to go NC for all kinds of reasons. You did the best you could and it was good, kind, enough. And yes, it cost you a lot that may never be fully appreciated. I just want you to know for what it is worth, I see it and I appreciate the person you are.

Thank you for this.  And perhaps this is the a ha moment I was teetering on: betrayal of self.  With DH's recent rebellious behaviors, I have been grappling with his betrayal to our marriage.  On the other hand, not being able to go NC with CN MIL felt like a betrayal to myself since I had already achieved it with success with NF for my own personal well-being.  I wanted to be NC with CN MIL because I know it would have eased my emotional load -- but it would have meant losing DH as well.  And now that I understand that he has been betraying me all along, I am angry that I betrayed myself by not demanding NC with CN MIL - because in a sense I feel like I am kind of losing him.  Now that I think about it, CN MIL was a very small part of the marriage package at the beginning because DH had been living apart from her for many years.....a much needed break after heavy parentification.  He was very protective of me.  And for whatever reason, maybe the romantic feelings around starting a family, DH convinced himself and me that moving closer to her and FIL would be the right thing to do!  And she obviously picked up where she left off and re-parentified him while I was busy being a new Mom...  To me, this is pure calculation.  Didn't know people could operate this way!  So, to think that I could extend grace towards someone who deliberately set out to destroy others...it is like I got thrown against my will into a patch of poison ivy.

[Poison Ivy]

I think my former father-in-law (now deceased) tried to break up my marriage. He would have claimed otherwise. But sometimes, actions speak louder than words.

[treesgrowslowly]

Pepin,

Yes, I have noticed the same thing. Having grace for the whole situation was only really possible if I could be protected from on-going exposure to that person's crappy behaviours. So going NC was part of the 'grace' of coming to understand that people in my FOO, suffer from mental health disorders that they probably could not get under control, and I was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, by being tied to them through DNA. I forgive myself for being born to people who had no idea how to take good care of me. That's where my grace starts!

From what you describe here about your on-going contact with your CN MIL when she was alive. It just sounds like you were hoping that she would learn how to treat you better. With most reasonable people, this is a reasonable expectation and nothing for you to feel ashamed of wanting.

I spent years hoping for my MIL to treat me better. We have to forgive ourselves on some level for this. So many of us had such high hopes for our relationship with our MIL. I think this is something I am still working on.

Trees