What Does Forgiveness Look Like?

[Phoenix18]

I'm asking what forgiveness looks like for you, in your situation? And also what is your interpretation of what it could/should look like, ideally?

I'm asking this because I'm at the point of taking baby steps toward working on it.

I haven't posted here in awhile, so quick recap of my situation:

MIL is undiagnosed covert narcissist who checks every single box on every list I've read. She considers herself the ideal model of a Christian. She has meddled in our lives for the entire 38 years we've been married (and before), nearly breaking us up several times. I'm NC with her for going on 3 years. DH is finally aware and VLC for a couple of years. Immediately after the incident which prompted me to go NC (I didn't know what it was called at the time - it was purely out of self-protection), she began harassing my husband that I was unforgiving, hard-hearted, and that I HAD to forgive her. I was not yet ready. I knew it would take time as it wasn't just for the single incident that prompted NC, but for years of abuse). Note: She never asked for forgiveness. Immediately upon realizing she'd been caught in her own web, she texted me, "The lord convicted me. I shouldn't have done that. Forgive me." To her, I realize that felt like an apology. To me, it didn't. She commanded rather than asking. There was no remorse or acknowledgement of me being hurt. She resumed her bad behavior almost immediately afterward, which then proved to me there was no remorse, there was no change, no repentance. I've spent the last 3 years learning and working on myself.

2 Years ago my sister brought to my attention that my mother was likely NPD. We talked at length and also to my brother, and realized that indeed, my sister was the scapegoat, I was the helper child and my brother was the golden child. Between us all we recognized that though she doesn't check every box, she does check many of them, and it explained so much about how we've all felt all our lives. Since then, I've been going back over my childhood and all my adult life and putting the puzzle together. My mother has visited us twice since then, and it's so glaring I can't unsee it. I've been VLC with her, except for her two visits (which were to help my brother because she lives with him & his family now, bless my SIL).

Neither one of them (MIL or Mom) will own any responsibility for the rifts they've caused, and are only interested in placing blame. When confronted they only gaslight, play the victim and continue to wail, "I don't understand what I did to deserve this!" (I guess that's playing victim, but also guilt tripping) and things of that nature. I've concluded that full NC with both would be the best way to allow myself to heal, but for my siblings' sake, VLC is the best I can do there. I'm staying NC with MIL for the time being. Going back to any attempt at a real relationship with either of them is out of the question.

I'm not going to talk about how I've felt or how it's affected me here, because this is about forgiveness, not about living in the past. I'm still working through the past, but I'm also really tired of that. I'm not sure I'm fully ready to forgive yet, but I'm at least ready to start thinking about it, mostly because I have a need and desire to get past it all and get on with my own life.

Towards that end, I've been looking up stuff about forgiveness, and going back to what I know. I was/am a Christian, but haven't been actively practicing because I've been so disillusioned with organized religion and pseudo-religious people. I still believe in God and have great respect for what the Bible says. Though I'm perplexed about the whole 70x7 thing as it relates to protecting oneself. In short, there is A LOT of conflicting information about forgiveness.

So I'm seeking input and info from any perspective. I want to weight it all. I read a very helpful thread on here from about a year ago. I got some good nuggets of wisdom from it. But I'm wondering if since then anyone has had any new insights, or if there are new people here with insight? I'd also really like to hear how other people's journeys of forgiveness have (or have not) have progressed. What is/was your reasoning? What has your process looked like? At what point did forgiveness come in your healing journey? Was there something that kick-started it? Did you ever let the perpetrator know? Why or why not? Have you been aware of a point at which you were able to move on and leave it all behind? Anything else you want to say about it?

Thanks so much, this forum has been such a tremendous help to me in learning about it all, and I appreciate you all.

[notrightinthehead]

Phoenix18, forgiveness in my case was not something I forced. I allowed myself years of anger and resentment. These feelings helped to protect myself and keep me from falling back in the trap of PD land. Like you, I grew up in a PD household and the abuse is "normal" and familiar. It's easy for me to fall back into the fog, so I feel I need to guard against that. However, I have found that with increased healing and the more I am at peace with myself, I have felt less resentment and more empathy with my abusers. Sometimes I can actually allow myself to feel love for them. From a distance.
So in my experience forgiveness comes by itself when we are healed enough. It's nothing we have to work for. We need to work on our own healing and emotional health. We need to strive to be the best person we can be. The change happens within us.

[Starboard Song]

I think it is critical to begin with what forgiveness is. It is to stop feeling anger or resentment. That's it. To stop feeling anger or resentment. When Jesus exhorts his followers to forgive in an unlimited amount, he is exhorting them to entirely stop feeling anger and resentment. And that, my friend, is the the full and complete scope of forgiveness.

You can forgive a drug dealer on your streets, but mustn't let him in your home.
You can forgive an abusive spouse, but must never trust them with your safety.
You can forgive an unfaithful lover, but must find a better home for your love.

Forgive and forget is a special formulation, applicable only to kind people you trust in spite of innocent flaws or one-off mistakes. Forgive and forget does not apply to your interactions with maladjusted, malevolent, or pathologically damaged people. It is every bit your Christian job, I believe, to provide for yourself a space in which you can reliably thrive, as it is to not hold anger and resentment for those who make that a challenge.

I don't resent my in-laws, generally. I don't feel much anger. Time has passed. We've healed. I wish them peace and happiness. That is forgiveness. But they may never ever re-enter my household, not on any account. That is my other obligation, to be true to myself and provide for my own safety and happiness.

If someone tells you that you ought to forgive, and then acts like you ALSO need to behave differently towards those who are manifestly a risk to your well-being, then those folks are in fact making TWO REQUESTS of you. Only one is forgiveness.

[moglow]

She never asked for forgiveness. Immediately upon realizing she'd been caught in her own web, she texted me, "The lord convicted me. I shouldn't have done that. Forgive me." To her, I realize that felt like an apology. To me, it didn't. She commanded rather than asking. There was no remorse or acknowledgement of me being hurt. She resumed her bad behavior almost immediately afterward, which then proved to me there was no remorse, there was no change, no repentance.

I agree. That's not what I see as an apology either. That's excuses and glossing it over, commanding as you said. The resumption of bad behavior caps it - a true apology would have included changed behavior. Maybe she realized she was wrong and owed an apology, but was it one? Not exactly.

I had a post on this very subject not too many months back and it was eye opening - I really thought there was something I must do, some exhibition or announcement I suppose. I've come to realize that forgiveness for me is complicated. It's letting go of the anger and resentment I held on to for so long. It's putting down any and all expectations of what mother/others "should" be and finding some level of acceptance with who they actually are - and yes, that includes myself. It's being kinder to myself and by extension others. It doesn't mean that those who have caused injury or offense are welcome back into my life, it's much more of a letting go process.

Forgiveness [to me] isn't conditional on anything from another person, it's not static or a final destination. It's a continuing process.

[DaisyGirl77]

I had a post on this very subject not too many months back and it was eye opening - I really thought there was something I must do, some exhibition or announcement I suppose. I've come to realize that forgiveness for me is complicated. It's letting go of the anger and resentment I held on to for so long. It's putting down any and all expectations of what mother/others "should" be and finding some level of acceptance with who they actually are - and yes, that includes myself. It's being kinder to myself and by extension others. It doesn't mean that those who have caused injury or offense are welcome back into my life, it's much more of a letting go process.

This is what forgiveness looks like to me, as well.  In fact, I hate the word "forgive".  It's too often used as a cudgel to bludgeon the injured party into being the bigger & better person without recognizing their pain.  It glosses over the hurt in the name of family/friend unity.  I find it incredibly manipulative (coming from a Christian family who used their religion & Jesus/God to excuse their own actions) &, frankly, it angers me.

But that's a me problem.

My version of forgiveness, such as it is, is what Moglow said:  it's a letting go.  For me, the anger, betrayal, & pain I feel will never truly go away, but I can put it away.  It doesn't rule my life.  It doesn't ride roughshod over all my emotions.  I've found my new even keel, & that all took years of work.  Now, with therapy & a lot of time, I can open that box & feel those terrible emotions in whatever depth I want to go, & I'm also able to put them back into the box & back onto the shelf it belongs on without it affecting my life for the next hour or day or week.

But if those who hurt me were to call asking for forgiveness, whether it be on their deathbed or tomorrow, they would not be getting it.  They will need to meet their maker & explain themselves.  I won't be helping them.

That's what it means for me.

[escapingman]

My forgiveness is compassions, compassion for having a PD and not being aware of how disordered they are. Compassion for being abused themselves and having their lives conditioned by generational abuse. I will never forgive for the abuse however, why should I forgive someone for repeatedly hurting me and my children knowing for well what they are doing. Having a PD is not a justification to abuse, it might explain the abuse but not justify it and therefor not something to forgive.

But you can forgive yourself for allowing the abuse and to make sure you never allow anyone to abuse you again.

[Hypervigilant]

I'm not religious but for me forgiveness was about forgiving myself for seeing the best in the NPs and instead taking the blame myself. I now see that it wasn't my fault.
We do what we know (learned behaviour)when we know better, we do better

[JustKeepTrying]

As a reformed good Catholic girl, who was raised to view forgiveness as forgetting, I now see forgiveness as a softening of the heart. The letting go that is mentioned above. Forgiveness is for you not for the other person. It's for your heart and soul so that you don't carry the anger, resentment and hate. You don't even to say it to them - say it out loud in the mirror - it's not for them.

Forgiveness can only come after you felt the anger though. You have to feel it and move with it and then when you realize you are holding onto it - you forgive. So that your heart stays soft. But it doesn't mean you forget. Doesn't mean you go back and take more.


This is something that I work on daily and the hardest person to forgive is yourself.

[NarcKiddo]

I agree with the idea that forgiveness is for you, and not the other person. Like boundaries, in many ways. You can have a rock solid boundary without ever specifying to the other person what the boundary is. And you can forgive someone without ever telling them. When dealing with a PD person this can be the only possible way to operate. To communicate a boundary may be to invite them to transgress it. To tell them they are forgiven may result in a flurry of self-righteous fury as they maintain they have done nothing to require forgiveness.

My uNPD mother once apologised to me as a child after she had raged at me for something that was nothing to do with me (the traffic, as it happens). She immediately followed the apology with the words "Do you forgive me?". I was still smarting at the injustice and had yet to come to terms with an apology from the woman who never apologised. So I said "no". Bad mistake. My mother believes others should forgive her for everything. If they do not forgive, they should forget. She likes the idea of the confessional and has been known to go, to have her sins wiped clean. The concept of "sin no more", however, does not seem to come into it.

I am struggling with this myself at the moment, I think, so thank you for starting the thread. I have been doing therapy for the best part of two years and am LC with my family. My boundaries and grey rock are working, on the whole, but this has resulted in my mother changing her approach. Which is largely good, because she realises the rage and exertion of power no longer works, but is bad because she is now playing the "poor little old lady" cards and those cards get to me.

My problem is that the anger seems to be dissipating, which is good. I am able to accept that she had a horrible upbringing herself and has little to no capacity to behave in a truly considerate and decent way. The dissipation of the anger carries some dangers for me, however, because I am now having to fight the temptation to go back and take more. The conditioning runs deep.

[1footouttadefog]

Several years ago I came up on an interpretation and it application of forgiveness that is working with me with regard to the PDs in my life.

The Lords prayerbis translated with Trespasses in some versions and Debts in others.

When pondering this and what the difference might be and if it mattered to me and why, I began an important shift.

A. Debt.  Someone owes you something. 

B. Forgive AND forget.  God does this, I don't see where I am supposed to. Reading through Proverbs, were are told repeatedly to be vigilant of various types of sinners that would harm us.  This requires remembering.


When I forgive someone, they no longer own me anything.  Their debt is canceled.  It's all between them and God.  I don't ask the debt to be paid, I don't ask for closure or an apology.  They owe me nothing, I no longer have expectations of them in the matter.  I don't expect them to change for my benefit either.  I do however remember and protect myself from harms accordingly. 

If a credit card company or a bank forgives a loan, they don't let the person continue to mount more debt.  They remember also. 

   

[xredshoesx]

to me forgiveness means you can see an actionable change in the other person's behavior/ actions.  since my current battle is a work situation after two central office investiations NOTHING was found to be inappropriate as far as what our admin does/ says (????), actionable makes sense because in the positive sense we are all moving forward IF she does what she says she'll do; however if it's in the negative sense, we are also documenting, documenting, documenting to file a grievance against our admin..... because a change is gonna come one way or another.....