Unpdm saying that I said things I don’t remember saying

[Sojourner17]

I got texts from my unpdm the other day saying that she thinks she figured out why I turned on her, stopped communicating, inviting her etc.  she says I told her that they didn't accept my DH.  I have no recollection of this.  I'm completely baffled and to be honest it's not makjng a lot of sense.  My DH and I have talked about it and I may have mentioned on here but I have no memory of saying it to her. 

I talked it over with my DH and decided to ask her about it.  I knew it could be a catalyst into tricky waters and it was.  She said I said it earlier in the year when she asked me to tell her why I went nc.  I do NOT remember saying it.  I let her just talk, (she talked about how wonderful my DH is and all the reasons this couldn't possibly be true and it's my job to make his realize that he is accepted) maybe I should have stopped her and said I didn't remember saying it but I didn't.  The phone call spiralled into her comparing me to her friends daughter that lives even farther away and calls her mom every day and has visited already this year with another planned trip. She also compared her parenting to my best friends mom and then said she thinks this all stems from a time that a counsellor I was seeing told me that my unpdm was toxic.  I asked her which counsellor that was and she said some female counsellor I saw before getting married and that she (unpdm) even offered to go to the counsellor with me but I refused (I have no recollection of this as well).

1) I don't remember that particular counsellor saying that.
And 2) I have NO recollection of ever telling my mom that a counsellor said that. 

The convo just spilled into unpd mom talking and talking and talking.  My head is spinning from all that was said. 

The convo led to me giving her more ammo because somehow I thought it would be a good time to try to tell her why I went nc.  I used the words attacking me (big mistake,  ) and she cut me off without hearing what I was actually trying to say and just ran with it.
Honestly I'm so upset at myself for making such a blunder almost 8 years or more into this now.
 
 
Have any of you experienced something like this? Where your unpd says you said certain things but you can't remember ever saying those things to them?  I know I've thought them,  talked to my DH about them, probably said it to a friend or a counsellor but I have no recollection saying it to her. 

[BreatheDeep]

Yes this has happened to me more times than I can count, and -- up to a point -- I've come to trust the toxic person's recollection on specific things more than my own.

Why? Because 1) I tended to get so triggered when I was around these particularly toxic family members that I probably did blurt out what I was thinking, and 2) in my experience at least, collecting and compiling lists of 'wounds' for later use from the person they see as victimizing them is a well-honed tool in a PD person's arsenal. From their perspective, their survival depends on them coming out on top, so I imagine they're highly motivated to get it right. And more often than not, what they 'claimed' I said was worded precisely the way I would've said (or thought) it.

On the other hand, they seemed to pick out and commit to memory ONLY the words or statements they were confident they could weaponize later, and would conveniently forget things like context, the rest of the conversation, and, of course, their own contribution to the exchange.

I eventually went NC with each of them, but towards the end of our relationship(s) I refused to litigate past exchanges, but insisted that we focus instead on what they wanted or hoped to gain in that moment. Nobody's memory is perfect, and -- if your goal is to solve the problem and not just beat somebody over the head -- it shouldn't have to be.

[walking on broken glass]

Hi Sojourner,

I am sorry your mum dragged you down to a rabbit hole. I would say it's fairly common for a PD person to remember things differently from us. Their memory is way more affective than ours and their emotions become their thoughts, so it's quite possible that they turn into a concrete fact something that was not said but they felt or something that was hinted at (or they thought was hinted at). Because they are so sensitive about their self image and how they are perceived by others, they become very good at picking things that may not be communicated intentionally (they are also good at imagining things too, to fit their version of the story, and then convincing themselves that these things actually happened). You are right to feel like you were taken for a ride because your mum baited you and engaged you in an argument you did not want to have.

Notice also the displacement: your mum is angry and upset with you because she thinks you should be doing more for her, like her friend's daughter, but she transferred her upset over to your husband.

It's a fruitless and thankless task to get her to understand what you did or didn't say; no amount of confirmation or evidence would change her opinion because her real beef is with you. And she is trying to engage you to get what she wants from you. The best way to shut this down is to give it no credit. I know how difficult this is because you feel you are accused unjustly and you want to defend yourself but no amount of defence will reassure your mum, simply because you are not and cannot and should not become who your mum wants you to be.

[BreatheDeep]

Walking on broken glass: I appreciate your perspective! I hope we can agree that when it comes to memory, for example, it really depends on the individual person and also which PD is involved. The toxic individuals I was thinking of all have strong NPD traits, and all of them were highly tuned to statements that they could use to their advantage later. But I have/had BPD people in my circle as well, and what you describe fits one of them perfectly.     

Sojourner17: I should've been more clear that I was speaking about my own personal experiences relating to me and various members of my own family, and not about all persons with personality disorders. In any event, in no way did I mean to suggest that your memory is somehow faulty or less accurate than someone else's!

I really hope that you get some peace over this situation. 

[Sojourner17]

Thank you Breathe Deep and WOBG.  Both of you filled in things for me.  I think with me when I get triggered or out of sorts I do use words or phrases that come back to bite me later on.  In this case one of the things she is saying I said was about 10 months ago, the other was from almost 20 years ago, maybe even more as I saw about 2-3 different female counsellors within a time frame of about 4-5 years.   

What I came to realize in this last conversation is she only listens long enough to argue, prove her point or justify WHY she did something or WHY she isn't what I'm saying or couldn't possibly have done what I am saying.  She doesn't listen to understand and she is not really curious about how what has happened has felt for me.  She isn't curious about how I've been feeling or what my perspective is.  She just wants to hear enough to prove that I'm wrong then she wants to deflect to how she's not as bad as others (my friends mom, the foster kids mom) how I'm not doing what she sees her friends children doing and that it's the therapists fault because they said she was toxic and that (obviously to her) is why this all happened.

On a side note, I do remember talking with one female therapist about how to handle contact with my mom. She gave me good advice in regards to doing something to help me calm and centre myself before and after phone calls.  I love playing piano so her suggestion was to try to find a way to play for a little bit to help settle my body and mind. 

[Liketheducks]

I'm so sorry.   And, YES, my mom has a very different memory of things than I do.   That being said, I don't remember whole swaths of my childhood due to C-PTSD.   But, I know enough not to argue those points with people.   Everyone has their own perspective about things and those with PD's have a tendency to lack the ability to self-reflect. 

About triggers.   It is great that you recognize that when triggered you just add fuel to the fire when dealing with your mom.  It took me decades to realize that.   I find that when something feels like I'm going to "go there" with my mom....that is seldom the time to say anything other than..."sorry, I have to go".     And, if she isn't interested in listening to understand.....then why waste your breath trying to be understood?    Just keep it lighter.    Someone, somewhere called this doing a 180.   Focus on you, your healing, your interests, when you're not around her and when you are....treat the conversation as you would a polite stranger?   That sort of works for me.

[walking on broken glass]

I hope we can agree that when it comes to memory, for example, it really depends on the individual person and also which PD is involved.

Yes of course, Breathe Deep! Lots of us who have dealt with PDs have memory blanks because of the trauma and it is absolutely true that NPDs carefully notice our words to weaponize them against us later. I just focused on the other side of the coin.

[walking on broken glass]

What I came to realize in this last conversation is she only listens long enough to argue, prove her point or justify WHY she did something or WHY she isn't what I'm saying or couldn't possibly have done what I am saying.  She doesn't listen to understand and she is not really curious about how what has happened has felt for me.  She isn't curious about how I've been feeling or what my perspective is.  She just wants to hear enough to prove that I'm wrong then she wants to deflect to how she's not as bad as others (my friends mom, the foster kids mom) how I'm not doing what she sees her friends children doing and that it's the therapists fault because they said she was toxic and that (obviously to her) is why this all happened.

This is gold, Sojourner! Very insightful. I would print this and put it on my notice board to look at every time I doubted myself or got triggered.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Agreed this is gold! I also think it's a flea of my husband's. He has a habit of immediately bringing up counterexamples to what I just said. For example, "Son has been more disrespectful lately." "But he did xyz this weekend without being asked."Which puts me on the defensive about how I'm not saying our son is always that way, and puts me on the spot to think of multiple examples to support my point, and I find it rather futile sometimes to try to get support from him. He's not interested in my point of view so readily as he is invested in staying comfortable.

[moglow]

@Sojourner17 this is very familiar to me - I've received messages, voicemails and even notecards in the mail, being accused of a random this or that. Always felt highly charged and confrontational, like there was something I had to respond to - and for years I did. I don't remember me ever talking her off the ledge she'd chosen. She had bought and paid for her mad and by golly she was going to have it! Notice she didn't call to actually discuss or speak of it face to face - she wanted the fight but somehow didn't want to actually face it head on and talk about it. She wanted her pound of flesh, sliced off a little at a time so she always has a target.

And this:

She doesn't listen to understand and she is not really curious about how what has happened has felt for me.  She isn't curious about how I've been feeling or what my perspective is.  She just wants to hear enough to prove that I'm wrong then she wants to deflect...

Also part of her game. Mother will pick up on some minor something she can defend or deny outright: a poorly chosen word or phrasing, an incident from the past that she's rewritten hard enough that it's unrecognizable. Obscure details that make no sense and I question them, getting off the original complaint - that she then stores away for later since I never "admitted" anything.

I had to force myself to stop engaging those comments. I don't remember ever being able to talk anything through and finding a peaceful solution, a pleasant end. It gets waylaid and I'm left baffled, while she gets all puffed up with self righteous anger and importance. She's going to think or say whatever it is she's chosen, and nothing I can say will change it. Mother's not looking for resolution, she's looking for fault. Blame. Making me the villain while she's clearly so hard done by. It's all victim mode and what a self satisfied victim she is. Usually I was just glad it was over, at least in that moment, because I knew without question she'd likely bring it up again.

And my perspective? Voicing my concerns? Irrelevant and unwanted. It's not new, I just didn't pay attention until later years. Now she's too quick to throw down a fauxpology, literally "I apologize," without hearing me out or trying to understand any differing point of view. Incapable of looking from another's perspective. She wants to wipe a slate clean until she either gets what she wants or sees that won't happen.

Facing that our mothers aren't interested in hearing about our feelings, how their choices in the moment affected us, isn't easy. It helped me somewhat when I realized then started really paying attention to her issues with others. She has no known long-term friends, she has a collection of people she uses. I used to hear incessantly about how this or that one did this or that to (or for) her. She never shared her side, what brought issues about, and she never seemed to want to understand what happened. Some dropped off never to be heard or spoken of again, wiped from her existence. A few were mentioned in doing something for her. Then there was the sneering list of those she despised, acid dripping when she brought up their names while never saying exactly why. 

My point? With mother it was universal - it wasn't *me* or anything I'd done. She's done it her whole life over and over, with nary an apparent twinge of regret, no remorse or apology. Seeing *that* was a huge turning point and I'm reinforcing as needed to prevent myself sliding back down in it.

[weasellette]

Hi Sojourner17, I have experienced this, the other way around mostly but I think this may be a thought experiment you can try.

I have a NPD dad and a textbook co-NPD mom. I have never had any interest in marriage and babies, it's just not who I am. I have built a life far away from them, yet they still have huge power over my mental well being.
Our discussions usually work the other way around, I try to explain why choosing not to have a family makes sense for me as a person and I get immediate whiplash halfway through my sentence. Arguing anything based on what they said to me in the past invariably gets me the 'Stop lying, I never would have said that' response.

It took me a very long time to realize that what they were doing in those conversations was not trying to keep the upper hand. They simply cannot fathom that my life, that is so different from their blueprint, could be worth living. That a life without children (thereby not giving them the grandchildren they want to have) could be considered a valid choice. Looking back at it now, looking at those conversations from the lens of what my parents were expecting from me, and what I was doing instead, they just simply only heard what fit their worldview - and ignored anything else. They only remember what they could somehow squeeze into that worldview. We were having 2 independent conversations at the same time. Their replies had nothing to do with what I had said. And bringing those replies up in a new context didn't make any sense to them. Ignore the immediate conclusion that I had to be lying, different discussion. But I now think they truly had no memory of saying these things to me. Plus, just like for you, they remember things I most likely did say at some point, but in entirely different contexts, so that I have no recollection from what conversation they may be retrieving this stuff.

It does not undo how hurtful the comments were. It does not take away the knowledge that my parents cannot open their mind just a little to see how beautiful my life really is. But the understanding of how we got there has taken an enormous amount of stress off my shoulders. I don't JADE anymore. I don't try to explain, I do not even feel the urge to defend. I just let them ramble on for a bit then try to change the subject. Or leave the room/end the phone conversation when the mood-o-meter starts rising.

I am not suggesting your situation is anywhere the same, all I am trying is to provide an idea to approach the process of working through this from a different angle. Just take a moment to ponder if you are having the same conversation(s). If yes, nothing is lost, keep on marching with your head held high, if no, maybe it can give you some peace and strength to let go. I know what it is like to feel gaslighted by your own parents, but I also know how empowering it feels when you are able to hold on to a rational explanation. In any case, I wish you all the best!

[1footouttadefog]

 A couple of things come to mind with the original post.

Plain old fashioned gaslighting with intention to reframe history and get her self off the hook even if only in her own mind.


Feelings as fact come to mind because many narcissistic or otherwise PD people create facts out of what they feel.  Their feelings are the center of the universe and everything conforms to them.  This is why facts can change as mood changes.  They can recall something with different facts if they now have different feelings regarding that event. Of course I mean "facts" here.

Confabulation is something that is seen with heavy drinkers once they start having sort of dementia as a result of drinking.  They basically fill in the gaps of a story with delusion that makes it work for them.  Frontal Lobe and Parkinson's dementia can restore this also.  Not trying to justify your mother's actions just mentioning this because sometimes PD and other issues can coexist.

I have this with my spouse.  I don't try to sort it anymore.  It is what it is, use the tools all that.   

[NarcKiddo]

I tend to dissociate and forget things, although what I forget tends to be more around what others may have said rather than something I may have said. Nevertheless I have forgotten both.

That said, whether or not I dissociated around my uNPD M in the past, I certainly do not do so now. I am on high alert with her at all times. She has realised this and her tactic now, if she goes that way, is to claim I did not say something rather than I did say something.

Keeping a journal of interactions with her might be helpful for your own peace of mind. I often check mine after interactions with my M. There's no point in JADE. Like you, I have discovered mine is totally uninterested in anything but herself. We had a bizarre situation recently where I turned up at their house and she wanted to go out to eat. I needed sticks to walk (she did not know about this in advance) and both parents spent the entire lunch studiously avoiding the topic. They did not ask me a single question about my need for the sticks for the entire visit. The next day my M contacted me on a family chat asking for details because she was so worried about me. Of course this was all about her - asking me about my health at the lunch table would have been all about me.

[Sojourner17]

Thanks all of you for your posts.  I just got back to them after a long hiatus.  I like the "not JADEing" plan and the keeping notes plan.  I've also come up with a catch all phrase to change the subject or end the call if needed.  I somewhat had to use a variation of it last time I called. I could sense she was wanting to go in to "it's a holiday weekend" etc etc type talk so I wrapped up the call before it went that way.  I really don't want to get into who was doing what on that day as we were having company for supper and from what it sounded like things were pretty quiet on her side.  She would have said something if something was going on.  It can be such a tricky balance. I don't want to be mean or cause hurt or pain but I need to keep convos out of no go zones to try to keep things going well. In the end I was able to have a fairly good phone call so I'm glad for that!