Money & control

[11JB68]

One of the traits of ocpd is stinginess or control issues with money. My uOCPDh is no exception. Weirdly he can be generous when he wants to be. The control is a big issue for me. It feels demeaning. Even though we are doing ok financially right now, and I now make more than he does, he is still tightly in control of our spending and budget. I get 'x' amount of cash each week,barely enough, some weeks not enough, which pays for: our groceries, his cigarettes, gas for both cars, household needs such as health/beauty items etc. Whole other topic but I had not had a haircut in over a year. I used to go to a very cheap chain salon. After a year I decided to treat myself to a good haircut at a decent salon. I had a new client coupon so it wasn't bad. It came out really good. (Another story goes with that...). So I decided that I would tell updh that I want to add $60 a month to my budget so I can continue to get a decent haircut at this salon. Bad enough that I have to ask permission for this. But he makes it worse...questioning me, acting like maybe he'll say no, etc. He said ok. Then sort of apologised after and said I deserve a good haircut, but he's just surprised it costs 60. His cigarettes cost 320 per month. ?????

[11JB68]

And....sorry, I really hate playing the poor me card, but this was a day where I felt like, wow I can't win. Went to buy his cigarettes and they've gone UP $4 a carton....which means $16 more a month. So my $60 that I grovelled for this morning has turned into $44....essentially...which is NOT enough to get my haircut.... Wow

[bruceli]

Where to start in regards to pd mom. I have seen her have a major melt down because my dad bought apples that weren't on sale, but was just telling a friend on the phone that she just got back from a 7 day trip to Vegas and will be off again in 2 weeks to New Zealand for a 2 week vacation.

[GettingOOTF]

I made significantly more than my ex and he also controlled the money. He "worked from home" so would go out to nice restaurants for lunch. Often paying for friends. I would take sandwiches I made at home. There was never any money and we were constantly in debt. He had everything he wanted and I scraped by. The entire time we were married I never bought anything for myself that wasn't on sale.


At some point in our marriage I had enough and I separated our finances. I opened my own bank account and had my company deposit my salary in to that. My ex was frequently unemployed and when he was employed he didn't make much money. I deposited half the expenses (rent, cable etc) in to the joint account and told him he was expected to do the same.

I don't know where he got he idea that he got to control all the money or where I got the idea that this was ok but separating our finances was the single best thing I ever did for myself.

[D.Dan]

There are a few weird things in my case.

My upd ex and I had joint bank account and joint credit card. (He cut me off of both when I ran to the homeless shelter with the children) I was in charge of making sure the bills got paid. He had free reign to spend what he wanted.

- Ate out everyday but wanted me to make meals for him that he didn't eat. (such a waste)
- he would buy large purchases without me, and tell me after the fact. (mysteriously losing the receipt also)
- blamed me and the kids for us not having enough money, completely ignoring what he spent.
- he liked having a nest egg, not for emergencies but so he could walk into any store and buy anything without being declined. (This also was behind his constant fear we never had enough money)
- in fact he didn't seem to understand why we would need a nest egg for life emergencies.
- got upset every time I had to spend money on things me and the kids needed. (Winter clothes, footwear, dental care, clothes, gas for the van, food  )
- he wouldn't tell me about his dental appointments (we pay in full first, then get reimbursed by our insurance at his dentist) until the day before, so we'd suddenly be short $200 or more.
- he'd give out money to his family or help them buy things for their homes, telling me afterwards.
- he tried to take over the grocery shopping but ended up getting less groceries that was more expensive, and completely ignored the kids food preferences (his family grew up with some weird idea, they have to prove they can afford the good stuff in life)
- he would get upset when I tried to fix up our house (his family would also try to take over or interfere with these projects) trying to get me to use cheap, shoddy materials, or not do the project at all.
- he also got upset whenever I got deals on anything we needed (new roof because my brother is a professional roofer, instead of using the inexperienced neighbor that uses cheap roofing materials, who takes forever to start)
- he also stole money from his work and tried to blame ME for it!

Last contact I had with him, he blamed me for his inability to budget or handle money. Said I made him incompetent in life. Boo hoo 

[bruceli]

I made significantly more than my ex and he also controlled the money. He "worked from home" so would go out to nice restaurants for lunch. Often paying for friends. I would take sandwiches I made at home. There was never any money and we were constantly in debt. He had everything he wanted and I scraped by. The entire time we were married I never bought anything for myself that wasn't on sale.


At some point in our marriage I had enough and I separated our finances. I opened my own bank account and had my company deposit my salary in to that. My ex was frequently unemployed and when he was employed he didn't make much money. I deposited half the expenses (rent, cable etc) in to the joint account and told him he was expected to do the same.

I don't know where he got he idea that he got to control all the money or where I got the idea that this was ok but separating our finances was the single best thing I ever did for myself.

This is exactly what happened in my relationship with PDexw, but 8n reverse. We had a shared accouterments for 17 years, she paid no attention to the finances nor did she care. During that period of time, I made 75% of the household income. As soon we got to 50/50, literally to the day. She insisted we have separate accounts now and got her own and would pay for only half of the expenses yet 75% of them were hers.

[Spygirl]

Reading these makes me feel better. Durning my 10 yr marriage my salary was pretty flat. Between 43-53k a year. That was commission. My H salary went from 130k to 180k. During that time I drove the same car, shopped at goodwill, bought the food, gifts, paid household bills- except morgage.

My H paid the mortgage, bought and paid for 2 cars, took two vacations a year with friends,
Kept the tax returns, and had an active social life in bars after wk.

Now that we are divorcing, he is trying to get me to agree to a much. Much, lower settlement than I am due because it will be "difficult and inconvenient " if he has to pay out a larger sum. He may have to pay alimony monthly to make it work. This is not true. It's just a way to control me financially  with late monthly payments. I got an equity line on my rental property home just because I expected this. He never pays anything on time. I already would have defaulted on my mortgage if dependent on him. To hell with him, he can suffer equally, and take out a loan to pay me off. It's the only way I will get everything I am due, and have no ties. I want my freedom from his control.

[Groundhog Day]

Sorry but why would you need to ask H money for haircut? I don't get it. Does you H ask your permission to spend on cigarettes? Are you an independant adult working woman? If it is a problem, then you need to rectify this now by opening a personal account for yourself in which your personal savings and expenses comes out of there. Then have a joint account with H where others such as house, food, cars, insurance..etc are taken and both put same equal amount every month.

Does your H only manipulates money or other things in your life or household? Do you have children? If so, your children are witnessing what is going on in your house.

Please do yourself a favor and stop this before it gets worse and leads to further manipulations on his part. I am sorry if I sound a bit rude but I am an avid believer of women's equality.

[11JB68]

Groundhogday...
I appreciateyour directness, and yes, this is why I'm here trying to get Out of the FOG...I believe h has ocpd, and also some bpd and npd traits as well. I only really came to this realization about 6 months ago, after being with him for over30 years, and not really knowing if his behavior was really 'abuse' or not. Any JADE on my part only escalates his behavior. I'm trying to use mc, which seems to help, and to work on boundaries, which is hard for me. I grew up with a likely bpd/ocpd mother, who verbally abused my father, so I learned all the wrong things. My request to add to the budget was an attempt to assert myself a bit..difficult for me, good outcome but not without him questioning it...and then to find that cigarette prices went up, it just sort of added to my frustration around trying to stretch and then feeling unrewarded for my effort. DS is21, and I did have a long conversation with him in July about what I think is up with dad and what I'm trying to do to improve things. Doing the best I can at the moment. Have been tempted to leave, but then reading people's experiences with that, it doesn't end the abuse/issues.

[Groundhog Day]

I'm sorry 11JB to hear about the mental abuse you are experiencing. You are no doormat to your husband, parents or anyone. I do understand it is difficult to change the relationship when things has been going on for years. Of course your H would argue to remain control of everything.

I was fortunate to find a loving, supportive husband. But I think the scars of my past having to deal with BPDm made me a strong individual. Years ago I witnessed my best friend being verbally abused by her husband. There were alot of people around and nobody spoke or stood up for her. I could see my friend's feelings was hurt, shamed by his public verbal abuse. So I spoke and confronted him and never backed down. I was not going to have someone bully and belittle someone else. Maybe other people around thought that this was none of my business, but for me, not saying anything meant that I supported his abuse. This event gave her enough strenght to leave the abusive relationship and she is a free and happy woman today.

I would like for every woman to have a voice, to speak up, to stand up for themselves. I understand it takes time to be assertive and I am glad you are taking the initiative to voice your feelings, frustrations and using this forum to better yourself and your relationship. It can be done, you have to be strong. I wish you the best on your journey!

[11JB68]

Thanks Groundhog. It's so weird, because I, like you, am a strong supporter of women's rights/equality etc. It is just so different when it's your own relationship and you are enmeshed it for so long and in the FOG. Also - H is sort of 'covert' in a lot of his behaviors. And, 'we' have very few friends, and at this point, of course, most of 'our' friends/family are really 'his' friends/family. AND, (typically) I was 1) confused (was this really 'abuse'? was I making too much of it? etc) and 2) embarrassed, and 3) didn't know who to trust. I did FINALLY bring a couple of trusted friends into my confidence about this - one who REALLY seems to 'get it' and who is part of 'our' circle pretty much said to me "Oh, well that explains a lot...now I understand why you do x"... So - he's not so bad in front of others, and/or I 'manage' the situation so that his behaviors don't show in public... I've often felt/commented that I wish there were a proverbial fly on the wall at home to see / hear what happens so that I could have a 3rd party verify for me: is it him? is it me? DOES he have a PD, or is this 'normal'? The only other person who 'really' knows him (and even he has been sheltered to a degree) is DS.  And of course, for a long time DS was too young to talk to about it. And then I was afraid of triangulating him and/or alienating him from his dad (who I do believe loves him). But I finally felt DS was old enough/mature enough and that I had enough knowledge to present it to him in a calm/objective way and I did. When I showed DS a printout from a reliable web site with the traits of OCPD, he read it and immediately looked up at me and said 'yeah, that's him'. No question at all in DS's mind. That was very validating for me.

[elly87]

interestingly, money management was not an issue in my marriage to NPD ex. I think its because he always tried to show his family that he was wel off financially so he wanted me to spend whatever I needed to produce that image and host guests expensively and regularly. my NPD father however was a different story. He controls all finances in the home, still, although he is retired and my mother makes a decent living working full time. my mother asks him for money for things she needs, he has to approve it, and then she needs to save receipts and submit them to him. they have weekly budgeting meetings to review what was spent and he determines if it was frivolous or appropriate for the future. I would never survive that. Interestingly, my BF and I live together and I am the one better at financial management so I lead in that regard but I would never 'control' his spending of his own money.

[Orthocone]

For those of us Out of the FOG, these things can be clearly off, but it's worthy of remembering what it was like to be in that situation, as I most certainly was with my uBPDm.  She was the one who talked me into moving back in with her, then started punishing me for it, then would whine about money while buying a 24-pack of beer every other night, cartons upon cartons of cigarettes, getting takeout, etc.  I think part of the problem for her was when she let my aunt talk her into doing a dog-grooming business instead of opening a restaurant with the money grandpa left her, cooking became a source of sadness for her.  Instead of dealing with it like an adult, she chose to avoid it and that was a big problem for her until she was diagnosed pre-diabetic a couple years ago and had to change her diet. 

[blacksheep7]

Quote: Sorry but why would you need to ask H money for haircut? I don't get it. Does you H ask your permission to spend on cigarettes? Are you an independant adult working woman? If it is a problem, then you need to rectify this now by opening a personal account for yourself in which your personal savings and expenses comes out of there. Then have a joint account with H where others such as house, food, cars, insurance..etc are taken and both put same equal amount every month.

Does your H only manipulates money or other things in your life or household? Do you have children? If so, your children are witnessing what is going on in your house.

Please do yourself a favor and stop this before it gets worse and leads to further manipulations on his part. I am sorry if I sound a bit rude but I am an avid believer of women's equality.

I AGREE 100%    I learned that decades ago, after my first marriage.

[djcleo]

We can all be hypocrites in our own ways, but usually these ways are not very dramatic. In this case, with your PD spouse, it seems that they are definitely having issues about money. My PD MIL as well as my uPDgrandmother also had issues with money and how they used items to attempt to control others. When used in this way, it is very demeaning. I'm sorry you're being treated this way.

My PD MIL will not even trust her own husband, who makes significantly more money than she does, with her accounts or inheritance, etc. It's sad, really, to lack such trust for your spouse. As far as I can tell, it absolutely does not reflect on him at all, but does reflect her disordered thinking in this area. My uPD grandmother would give EVERYTHING to my uncle on holidays, but favored males, so my mother got nothing. Much like Harry Potter living in a closet under the stairs was how my mother was treated.

My PD MIL also will give you extra things that she thinks you like if you're still on the pedestal. If you're "painted black", then you get strange items as gifts that have nothing to do with you and don't fit your tastes at all.

[11JB68]

Thank you DJCleo
It's an ongoing issue that's been present in our marriage from day one. And my uPDm didn't help matters by starting off by basically telling my uPDh that I'm 'not good with money' etc.
I found this interesting: "My PD MIL also will give you extra things that she thinks you like if you're still on the pedestal. If you're "painted black", then you get strange items as gifts that have nothing to do with you and don't fit your tastes at all."
uPDh definitely uses money/gifts with me in a way that is very annoying and demeaning. When money was tight and it was my bday if I needed new glasses (to SEE) he would make that my bday present. (Totally doesn't even get the 'gesture' of a bday gift - why not agree that yes, I NEED glasses, and yes, it's my bday and so find some inexpensive way to show that he's acknowledging my bday)... Last year at my bday (we were better off financially) he literally said 'how much ($) will make you happy'?
If he's 'happy with me'  he'll offer money and say I 'deserve' it as I've 'been good' etc.
Admittedly we have never been wealthy or even really comfortable financially, and I get that we have things we need to pay for and save for etc.
However we 'agreed' early on to a 'budget', part of that 'budget' is my weekly 'allowance' i.e. cash I get out of the ATM each week. This amt has to pay for household needs as well as any spending money I want/need - it pays for: Groceries, gas for both cars, HIS cigarettes, health/beauty products, any food we order out or go out to eat, etc. The groceries and cigarettes alone are a large chunk. Also - when I started coming Out of the FOG I looked back and saw that my 'allowance' had not changed in 16 years. (well, it briefly went up for a time and then he reduced it when DS went away to college since the 'grocery bill should be less now'). yet in '02 cigarettes were 47.50 and now they are 84. Groceries are up too as well as gas. He seems to have no knowledge or concern about inflation, even though he is supposedly a financial genius.
Now - for those who tell me I need to stop this now....I totally get that in a 'normal' world I would have him buy his own cigarettes etc. BUT I KNOW that this would trigger him and would likely result in my eventually leaving...so - given that I am not ready to commit to THAT path, as I fear the repercussions both emotionally and financially for myself and for DS, I need to handle all with MC and try to gently assert myself when I can.

[djcleo]

Now - for those who tell me I need to stop this now....I totally get that in a 'normal' world I would have him buy his own cigarettes etc. BUT I KNOW that this would trigger him and would likely result in my eventually leaving...so - given that I am not ready to commit to THAT path, as I fear the repercussions both emotionally and financially for myself and for DS, I need to handle all with MC and try to gently assert myself when I can.

I'm not sure if you may have already tried this and I read over it and forgot... but is there possibly a way to allow HIM to buy his own cigarettes? I have a feeling this would backfire, but would you be able to "forget" to get them a few times? Or address it in some way of NOT addressing it in a direct manner, as would possibly trigger outbursts?

Could you possibly take him with you while shopping so that maybe he'd see how the money isn't going far enough, but you wouldn't have to say it to him? I'm just throwing some ideas out there. You know him best and it sounds like if you hear the right idea, you'll be able to choose accordingly.

I'm rooting for you.

[11JB68]

DJCleo - thanks for 'rooting' for me
I love that at least the folks on this site 'get it' - what it can be like dealing with a pwPD. Outside folks will suggest to me, tell your H this, or do that, and I'll say - 'you don't know my H'.
He chooses to be in denial about so many things and on so many levels. (And yes I know I'm enabling this). When the anti-smoking PSAs come on TV he changes the channel! The last time I forgot to get cigarettes he called me at work and 'made me' (I know he can't MAKE me do anything) leave work, buy some and bring them to him at home. AND was pissed off at me.
He is triggered SO easily by SO many things. I have learned that arguing, persisting, anything will just set him off and results in fighting, circular arguing etc. I truly feel that if I were to start setting firm boundaries NOW and if I were to really stop enabling him, that things would escalate and I would end up needing to leave. As much as I feel I would like to do that, I don't feel I can right now.
This started off as a post about money/control, but as usual it becomes about other issues as well. He doesn't buy gas for the cars. He doesn't pump gas. Most stations near us are self-serve and he gets so frustrated if he can't figure it out or it goes badly, it has become MY 'job' to make sure both cars have gas in them. The last time I saw him try to pump gas was SEVERAL years ago and he got so triggered that he had a paranoid reaction in which he accused ME of telling the clerk to shut off the pump! It was really disturbing. I've never asked him to pump gas again.
It's very frustrating. All of it.
The best I've been able to achieve in the past 6 months or so, since I started to come Out of the FOG is to maintain Medium Chill so as to not trigger him, and to avoid JADE. This has at least helped to reduce fighting and verbal abuse. I'm not sure how long that will last.
To add to the current frustration and catch-22 his health has not been great, so this is adding to the "G" in FOG for me big time.
Thanks for listening.

[11JB68]

Resurrecting this is one too.
Seeing in 2018 his cigarettes were 84.
NOW they are $100 per week.
$15/week more. 400/ mo.
But no change to my allowance.
And cannot afford less than 50 more a month for me to get my hair colored

[haribo_milchbaren]

I am actually feeling like I dodged a bullet here, somewhat. I feel like my own paranoia and to be frank, avoidant behaviour regarding sharing finances has saved me here. When my parents got divorced my non-PD parent got very screwed, and my PD parent warned me frequently to make sure I had my own bank account, credit history, etc. because they had no credit history after the divorce and couldn't get a credit card (and got upset/jealous with me when I did get one with no credit history as a university student, ha, oh, and fun fact, when I disclosed my salary a couple years ago to PD parent they also got upset/jealous). So I have been overly cautious about managing finances by myself and to the point of hiding that I wasn't able to make and stick to a budget (yes, I am fully aware this is completely unhealthy and will be working on this, however a) I make all the money and b) we have never been in debt or not able to pay any bills and c) there was very dysfunctional behaviour whenever the topic of budgeting did come up which reinforced my avoidance). Unfortunately though, we are now getting a divorce and I am having a very difficult time not going easy on STBX financially because of their manipulation. Despite earning all the income I still feel that I am being controlled and it's a very scary place to be in. You know what, maybe I haven't dodged a bullet after all. Maybe the bullet is just hitting me now. Thankfully I am coming Out of the FOG.