Holidays incoming

[teddy2008]

Hi everyone,

I felt the rumblings of Thanksgiving plans and I said we would be willing to visit with DH's family so long as it gave us a pass the rest of holiday season.  We were planning on staying in a hotel or something on our own while other family members stayed together in different options but in the same town they are from.   The moment we committed the plans flipped.   Now let's get a bigger place so we can all stay together.   I'm not comfortable being around MIL and a BIL in normal circumstances for more than a few hours. Covid has turned into an afterthought as well which is mind blowing.

I've expressed my desire to lodge separately.  DH seemed okay with that input, but now I feel like he is being lobbied by his family.   When I brought it up again my preference and my concern (now that we are clearly the "dissenters" and odd ones out), he gives me this look like I'm crazy. Like I'm over reacting and being too much. Too difficult too unaccommodating.

So I doubt. Am I being too hard on his family? Am I asking too much to have a separate house?  I start questioning it all. Like I have amnesia over all the past visits and what those were like. I justify it (the anxiety, witnessing the ugliness)  because it's only a few days right? It's for our kids right? I don't want to put DH in a bad spot, do I?

It is a trivial circumstance but there is so much tied to how these things play out.

 

[Thru the Rain]

I'm sorry that you are dealing with this and that you are being made to feel like the trouble maker here.

It sounds like you had a reasonable plan. But as soon as you gave an inch, your IL's took a mile.

I'll share what I do with my own family. I live about 1,500 miles away from my original home town. When I visit FOO, I stay in a hotel. End of story. There were tears over this, anger, confusion, upset, hurt feelings.

I never gave them anything to argue about - no long story about how I can't spend time with them, nothing about the unbelievable dust/dirt in uPDM's home that leaves me with serious allergy problems for weeks. Just stated that I stay in a hotel.

Decades later, no one even blinks that I stay in a hotel when I visit. This is the place you want to get to, where no one even questions the decision because that's just what you do.

Let DH's family have a giant over-reaction if they want. You stay in a hotel.

[BettyGray]

Uh oh, the holiday season - never an easy time of year for us here in the forums.

"Let's all stay together..." 
No, no and no!  I generally think family "vacations" together are breeding grounds for drama. I am equally puzzled by families who *enjoy* staying together for a week. I get pretty sick of anyone except DH after a day. Plus, who sees it as a vacation or any kind of escape? Maybe some people define vacation differently but to me, it's supposed to be an escape from the world, especially family.

I don't think yours is a trivial situation whatsoever. Sounds to me like a healthy boundary. It is your absolute right to request your own space if you can afford it. If DH knows how uncomfortable you are around them, he is really putting you in a tough spot. When we were still visiting, DH and I made the mistake of either staying with my parents (dreadfully uncomfortable) or my sister (a little less uncomfortable, but never pleasant. We only stayed in a hotel once, because just to get there, the trip was expensive. Add in 3-4 nights of hotel on top of airfare. We hated spending our hard-earned money going to see them, but I felt obligated to go once a year. DH supported me, although he hated every minute. We used to try to reward ourselves for making it through each visit. But I used to start dreading the upcoming holiday trips right  after Labor Day. A week before the trips, I was a ball of anxiety. During the visits, I tried not to explode. I usually got sick after returning home - one time for about 5 weeks after. Thankfully I cut off all contact 5 years ago and one of the first things I thought was how much money  I would save by not visiting & buying gifts. 
Along with the liberation of my mental health, of course. And no longer dreading the holidays. Now the holidays are fun.

If DH knows you struggle with proximity to them and it affects you so negatively, he should be on your side. But it sounds as though they still have him on that leash of obligation. I have sympathy  for him, too, as we sometimes cannot see what is in front of our noses, due to FOG.

My fear is that if you don't draw the boundary now, it will get harder to do so down the road. But sometimes when we are still in the FOG, we don't see past our family role. We can easily fall back into our designated roles, often regressing into unhealthy patterns. Staying in close quarters can exacerbate the dysfunction. The adult thing to do is to put your foot down. You're doing them a favor by showing up, and if you expect you'll be mistreated or looked down upon for staying in a hotel, so be it. It sounds as though you'll wind up the scapegoat either way, so why not create a safe space for your family while you're there?  Staying in a separate space will make the trip slightly less miserable, as you'll have it to look forward to retreating to at the end of each long, long day.

You should not have to justify keeping yourself safe, no matter how short the visit. You can experience a lot of pain in just a few days. The repercussions can ripple out for weeks after. You also run the risk of resenting  DH  for  giving in to  his bullying family. Not to say cause a scene or anything, but I think it is extremely important you express to DH that you need to feel he is on your side. A unified front is a must. Make your needs known. They're not wants, they're needs.

His family may have tantrums, gossip about you or try to guilt him, but it sounds like they'll likely do that anyway, so why crater? You don't owe them anything. He doesn't know  it about himself, but he owes them nothing either. 
I hope you can work this out with DH. But don't beat yourself up. Your concerns are real and valid. You're not selfish, you just don't need to put yourself in a predictably miserable situation. Good luck. And no matter what happens, the kind folks on this  forum are always here for you. It's gotten me through many tough holiday seasons.

[treesgrowslowly]

I agree with the previous reply...you gave an inch and they took a mile.

I went through a version of this years ago.

Two to 3 hour visits are what we nons want (non-narcissists).  Then we know we need to shift gears and either spend some time alone or with our kids or partner etc...

I recently posted an article about being an empathetic person. If you have lots of empathy then the family will ask you to bend to them. This seems like an example of that with your family expecting you to give in to what they want, instead of just letting you have some space by having a separate rental.

I think that people watch movies about these holidays all together in one house. But in real life there's a lot of narc injury that hurts. The movies rarely show that. And make it seem like narc abuse is no big deal. So people think oh Thanksgiving we should be together as many minutes as possilbe. As if that is what makes everyone happy. We know better here at Out of the FOG. Its too hard to spend 10 hours straight with narcissists. It just is.

Narcissists see the holidays as one big play. Drama means supply for them. They get people emotionally upset. Their ability to upset people knows no boundaries i have found. Starting arguments, insisting on specific details, just controlling when and where to do x....its all so exhausting.

I feel for you. Separate rental spaces is something that a healthy person would not badger you about wanting. Its your holiday too!

However they don't see it like that.

I found the JADE tool helps here. How can you justify yourself when someone doesn't see their own behaviour? You can't.

Do your best. I found that the narcissists in my life got so offended by my need for breaks from them. So I know its hard. Your need for space causes 'drama'. Those of us who are here at Out of the FOG get it. We have had a lot of these same sorts of things happen. Keep posting.

Trees

[Medowynd]

I would tell Husband that you are willing to visit, with a separate hotel room.  If that is off the table, I would cancel the visit on your part.  Husband can attend alone if that is so important to him.  I learned long long ago, never and I mean never give in to the manipulations of a person with a PD.  If you agreed to stay all in the same place, next it will be, that every activity and meal has to be together.  Heck, they may want to control transportation and hold you captive by automobile.

[teddy2008]

Thanks everyone for your insight.

We ended up booking a separate space and I am incredibly relieved.  The amount of mental gymnastics and back and forth between DH and his siblings was wild. My MIL and her enabling parents are at the root of this pressure to all stay together, but they were not directly involved in any of the conversations. It was like this big elephant in the room watching but her children, or my DH's siblings, were the ones carrying out her wishes.

I've also come to recognize a behavior I've seen in my DH and his siblings.  I call it the 'flip and switch'. He (or She) expresses an opinion or a decision about something and feels strongly about it.  Then based on feedback or pushback from another party they completely change which side they are on.  In addition to the 180, they act like they never expressed the prior opinion or will never acknowledge it.  I don't have a problem with people changing their minds, they have the right to it, but when they erase the previous version of themselves its incredibly confusing and makes me question whether it ever happened.

Has anyone else experienced this?

[treesgrowslowly]

Yes. What you describe is gaslighting.

It takes courage to pull away from these sorts of antics. The person doing loses a lot by doing it but they don't see that.

The only behaviours you can control are your own.

I found all of the things you describe just completely unworkable over time. It is mostly exhausting to try to keep so many unhappy people from getting angry with you over and over.

Trees

[Thru the Rain]

So glad you booked a separate space!

But there's a lot of time between now and Thanksgiving, so be on the lookout for more shenanigans.

[Hilltop]

Other people's emotions are exactly that, their emotions.  It's on them to manage them including their disappointments.   Stick to the plan of lodging separately.  Just keep saying you are happy with the plans as they are and don't budge.  The first year of change will be the hardest and after that people will come to see it as normal.

Glad to hear you are relieved with how things turned out.  I haven't experienced the 180 but it sounds exhausting.  At least now that you have booked it's all set.

[teddy2008]

Thanks everyone for posting advice.

We are planning to stay separate but are gathering for a thanksgiving meal and other meals throughout weekend.  My assumption is everything is outdoors but there is no backup plan if very cold or raining.

MIL and the grandparents are very freaked out about covid- but at the same time expect us all to be there.  One of them even sent an article out about what steps you need to take prior to coming to a family gathering aka quarantine for two weeks.  Unfortunately with our work schedules we are  unable to do so.  So we are already 'breaking the rules' before we get there even though they were unrealistic for us to achieve in the first place.

I asked DH if he communicated that to them and he said he has expressed our situation. I am having a lot of anxiety about the whole trip because I feel like he has told his siblings and not his mom (MIL) or grandparents directly.   The expectation is that his siblings would tell them for him?? I do not understand why they cannot have a honest and direct conversation without going through another person.   I expressed my reservations about going but it seems as though its full steam ahead even though the numbers are getting bad in our state again. The whole situation sucks and I feel stuck.