My VLC is “nonsense”

[Sidney37]

I'm VLC with enD and NC with PDm.   VLC means I didn't block his number and he calls or texts every few months.   I'm not sure if I have a question or just need support. 

Recently he texted that I need to stop the "nonsense" and that he wants to know "today" if I plan to talk to them again.  I didn't respond.  I felt like a 12-year-old child.

I was surprised at how mad that made me. First, he thinks that protecting myself from my mother's verbal abuse is "nonsense".    He knows the awful things that she said to me  Just prior to the NC that the few people I've told agree are at the level of probably unforgivable.  Then he demands (after not speaking to me since winter) that he needs me to respond "today".   He demanded it! 

I always considered him the enabler, but times like this (and the time he wanted me to allow him to track my cell phone with a friends app when I was in my 40's, married with kids and 10 hours away) make me think that he's a PD, too.   Maybe he's frustrated at being her only target.  Maybe he's doing her work for her.   I can't fix that for him.

I didn't respond, but I don't like the unsettled feeling and feeling like a child who isn't following the rules when I ignore the texts or block him.   What will the consequence be?  There will be one.  How do I sop feeling like a 12-year-old who is being disrespectful and a rule breaker when staying NC or VLC? 

[SunnyMeadow]

I would've had a hard time not replying  or "oh, did you forget the awful things SHE said to ME"?

I'm guessing it's a combination of him frustrated at being her only target and doing her work for her. He wants you back to share the pain and so she can spread her BS around to include you.

What is he bringing to your life? Is there any benefit in being VLC with him? My instinct is for you to protect yourself from him now that he's shown which side he's on. My stepdad continues to stay with my mother, even though she's caused so much drama and chaos all over. I feel sorry for him but as my husband said to me, "he's a grown man and has had many opportunities to leave her yet hasn't". I'm not sure these men deserve all the passes we've been giving them.

[Call Me Cordelia]

He possibly has rewritten the events leading up to your distancing yourself and distorted them such that he can call your distancing yourself "nonsense" with a straight face. I would be tempted to send his text back with the offensive parts highlighted and say, "Well you're indicating that nothing would be any different, and in fact you're blaming me for protecting myself from outrageous abuse. So no, I've decided to block you too."

If that's what you want to do. I second the question above that what benefit is there to keeping this channel open? It's a conduit for abuse, clearly, whether he's acting on his own or as a proxy for your mother. You've been generous with leaving that door ajar with the chain lock on, and your dad is choosing to bang on it. You get to choose the consequence here.

As to the consequence for you? Well it can hardly be any worse than what you've already gone through. And even if they did manage to intrude over your boundaries, it's still preferable to being in contact again and putting yourself in the "prodigal returns" pageant or whatever.

That's easy for me to say. I still fear my uNF finding us and giving us hell through abusing child protective services to get to me. It sucks, no matter what. Here for you, Sidney!

[moglow]

In a post a month ago, your dad attempted/threatened suicide. This is what he said to you at the time:

He claimed he did it because she wouldn't stop harassing him and yelling at him about me and my decreased contact with her.  He said it was her fault that he made the threat. I had been talking to him multiple times a week and he was lying to her about it.  He felt caught in the middle.  He had spoken to someone for help about the situation and PDm was picking and picking relentlessly at him to tell her exactly what he said to this person and exactly what this person said to enD.  He couldn't take her constantly yelling at him about me not talking to her and her demanding to know the exact details of his conversation and it resulted in the threat!

Reread that - hell reread the whole thread and then a few of your others! Your dad is crumbling because of your mother's treatment of him and I don't doubt it's increased with you not around as another target. That's between THEM, that he's allowed/encouraged/enabled it all these years. He/they're holding YOU responsible because you had the audacity [read: COURAGE] to take a step back and away from it for your own and your family's sanity. They're struggling to cope, I get it. You've never dared stand up for yourself, I get that too. Still, their reactions are not your responsibility.

If you choose to respond, I have two directions in my head.

1. Oh. So it's "nonsense" that I've had enough of being treated like a child and have chosen to take better care of myself and my family? Noted. Might I recommend that you do the same, take better care of yourself and stop letting her beat you up over every little thing. Find some boundaries. Let her be mad, she'll get over it. But grow a spine already and stop being her whipping boy. You deserve better.

2. Hey Dad! So good to hear from you! I hope you've been well - and yes, we and the kids are doing well, thanks for asking. They're finally back in school and settling into more normal routine. A is practicing with the team again and B auditioned and got into band like she's always wanted. ... [positive, upbeat, normal]

So yes, I have more than a little snark to provide. I just hate seeing you get jerked around, and yes, I hate it for your dad too. He's married to her, chooses to live in it, chooses to dump her stuff on you as if you're somehow responsible. I understand he's doing what he's always done because that's who he is. His choice, as sad as it is.

[Sidney37]

Thanks Moglow.  The suicide threat was a year ago, but it's awful no matter when it was.    It's what triggered the NC/VLC.  I've been VLC with him since and NC with her since then or just after. 

I've just composed a direct and somewhat snarky email to respond. I've learned not to respond immediately because I say things in a way that makes me look like the unreasonable one when they show it to other people.  Based on advice here, I had been avoiding any response to most all of it over the past year and trying to stay as VLC as possible, but really I think they need see it in writing one last time.  It's more like your first option.   It's direct but a little snarky. 

The nonsense is theirs.  The nonsense is him lying to her to keep himself out of trouble.  Hanging up on me when she catches him on the phone with me and then sending mean texts months later to shame me for not calling them after he tells me not to call because it will get him in trouble.  Shaming me on social media for having her blocked.  Sending mean emails to tell me that I've been removed from their POA and will.  The suicide threat. 

I'm protecting myself and my family from the drama.  I'm so much calmer without the drama. 

Cordelia
I think she gaslights him so much (and I've witnessed it) that he doesn't remember what happened and what didn't.  He definitely was remembering things differently a year ago when I was talking-to him.  I'd remind him of what actually was said or happened, and it was clear that she had influenced his memory to such a degree that he didn't know what he remembered. 

Sunny Meadow/Cordelia
I ask myself the same. Why am I still VLC instead of NC?  I'm not sure.  I'm assuming I'm worried that there will be a consequence if I cut them off entirely.  I'm still working through that in my head. 

[nanotech]

I solved this with my nbro by telling him no more texts unless our father was critically ill. I explained very politely that as we haven't got a close relationship at all I was going to reduce texting to just be about our father's health. I reduced that even further( my dad malingers a lot) by stressing that dad definitely has to be PROPERLY ill before I get a text.
No panicking, bossing and  bleating because dad hasn't pooped for a few hours! ( it has happened).
He flounced and fretted had a mini rant, accessed me of being crazy 😜- then he had to accept it. 
He's tried to break it twice since, but I just haven't replied. I told him I wouldn't so I was keeping my word.
His texts, few and far between as they were, were always cold and unpleasant. He used to be passive aggressive, arrogant and covertly judgy. He liked to bait and then ghost me.
Not any more. 

[Hepatica]

Sidney37 Having read your posts and reflecting on my own past and present, what hits home for me is how dysfunctional parents work together. It's so creepy. I relate to your situation bc my father has always acted like the enabler and my mother is openly dysfunctional. It's like good cop, bad cop and over the years I then began to see patterns in how they worked in tandem. Of course my uNPDcovertf always looks angelic next to my mother and I think that's why he chose her. It's a terribly dysfunctional marriage all about them, and the children, me and my sister, just happened to be "hostage" within it for our first 18 years of our lives, until we moved out.

If my father texted, (he doesn't have a cell phone thank God) I know he'd send me a message exactly like your father, demanding me to stop the nonsense of going no contact. What he is saying is: don't make us look at ourselves and at why our daughter can't even be around us.

I relate very much to the feelings of feeling like a 12 year old girl. That's probably what they want us to feel, because then they'd still have full control over us.

Bottom line is we are not responsible for our parent's extremely toxic marriages. I have gone NC finally and I find it hard to manage the feelings at times but I know that I feel more peace than I've felt in years. I don't know how you stop feeling the anxiety around how they will get back at you, or feeling disrespectful other than really telling yourself that what you've been through is enough. It is enough. You are not doing anything to hurt them. You are living your life and leaving them to sort out theirs. This dysfunction is in their relationship and you've had enough pain from them now. Be compassionate for yourself that way. You are not being disrespectful. You are being compassionate to yourself and brave.  Don't let them drag you into their drama for one minute longer.

I know it's hard. I felt like watching my parents relate to each other was like a micro-slow train wreck and I feel too sick to watch it anymore. They sucked the life out of each other and now are shells of their former selves.

I said to my son a while ago, please make sure you choose a good partner in life. Because I look at my parents and see exactly what happens when people get involved in the long-term with a vampire/NPD/toxic I don't know what to call it, but it sucks the life out of people.

We, as children, have been through too much because of it. Swim to fresh clean water and sunlight. Go NC and stick with it and believe with all of your being that you cannot save these people, your parents. They can only save themselves.

I'm so sorry. I know how hard this is. I am going thru such a similar situation with my parents.

[illogical]

Hi Sidney37,

I think you have to come to the conclusion here that your dad is the ultimate enabler of your mother's bad behavior.  Even if he isn't a PD, he has enough "fleas" that he might as well be PD.

This is the conclusion I came to of my own father, although he had passed when I went NC with my NM and GC/NPD brother.

Your mother is using the open communication line with your enabling dad to sow discord and discontent.  It's her only way IN to your life.  I strongly suggest that you cut off contact with your enabling dad.  That way, your mother has no access to your life.  As long as you remain in contact with your enabling dad, your mother has a pipeline to you and your family.

Your dad has "drunk the Kool-Aid" of your mother.  He is never going to change, "see the light", take your side, etc., etc., etc.  Sad, but true, and he has proven it in spades.

It is really ludicrous that your enabling dad described your recent actions as "nonsense".  It further shows he is totally in your mother's camp and has little regard for you.  You are totally justified in your anger at this.

When I was about fifteen, I had a dog.  My NM took that dog to a kill shelter.  That dog was pregnant, so my mother was responsible not only for the death of my beloved pet (she made me and my GC brother ride in the car to take my pet to the kill shelter) but also for the death of my pet's puppies.  This is a scar that will remain on my landscape forever.  When my enabling dad came home from work and found out about the situation, did he beat a path to the shelter to try to retrieve my pet?  No.  He caved, being the coward he was.

I had to face the fact that my father was a coward and that was a very difficult thing to do.  But nonetheless, that is what he was.

I can't tell you what to do here.  But your enabling dad is standing in your way of freedom from your dysfunctional family.   

[SparkStillLit]

I am the coward. I had to find a home for one cat and two dogs that were our family. The children do not remember the cat and the first dog.
They remember the second dog. He was special to my son. We were moving. Couldn't take 3rd dog. This is a long PDH story. *I* had to take him to the adoption events, where he wore the little yellow "Adopt Me!" vest while I stood and tried not to cry, *I* posted his pictures and liased with the adoption group, and eventually took him to his new home, and cried my heart out. We'd had him since puppyhood.
I will never allow that again. What must my children think of me. I told them he had a new, loving home, I showed them pics of him with reindeer ears on and his new family, so they knew he was loved. But there was no reason. We didn't move, and the kids asked if we could take him back. I explained we could not. I don't think they ever really forgave, and I'm the bad guy in that scenario. I was dh's patsy.
I'm trying to improve my behavior, because every day I see on here how this affects grown children and DID affect growing children, and I hope I still have a chance. I don't want to be these parents who call and tell their children it's nonsense and other horrible FM BS that they have to defend against.

[nanotech]

I am the coward. I had to find a home for one cat and two dogs that were our family. The children do not remember the cat and the first dog.
They remember the second dog. He was special to my son. We were moving. Couldn't take 3rd dog. This is a long PDH story. *I* had to take him to the adoption events, where he wore the little yellow "Adopt Me!" vest while I stood and tried not to cry, *I* posted his pictures and liased with the adoption group, and eventually took him to his new home, and cried my heart out. We'd had him since puppyhood.
I will never allow that again. What must my children think of me. I told them he had a new, loving home, I showed them pics of him with reindeer ears on and his new family, so they knew he was loved. But there was no reason. We didn't move, and the kids asked if we could take him back. I explained we could not. I don't think they ever really forgave, and I'm the bad guy in that scenario. I was dh's patsy.
I'm trying to improve my behavior, because every day I see on here how this affects grown children and DID affect growing children, and I hope I still have a chance. I don't want to be these parents who call and tell their children it's nonsense and other horrible FM BS that they have to defend against.

Sparkstilllit
This sounds as if you suffered over this decision just as much, if not much more, than your children.
I notice that YOU were the one who had to go through the difficult adoption process.
Don't beat up on yourself. You weren't a coward, in fact you were brave and resilient in the face of imposed heartache.
You found a lovely home for your dog.
Your dog continued to live life and to be loved.  It's a very different scenario indeed. You clearly love and cherish your children very much, putting them first in every way. Maybe also put your own feelings first too. Sometimes PDs make us do things and convince us it's 'for the best'. They achieve this through the emotional abuse. That's where the responsibility lies, with your husband.

[illogical]

This sounds as if you suffered over this decision just as much, if not much more, than your children.
I notice that YOU were the one who had to go through the difficult adoption process.
Don't beat up on yourself. You weren't a coward, in fact you were brave and resilient in the face of imposed heartache.
You found a lovely home for your dog.
Your dog continued to live life and to be loved.  It's a very different scenario indeed. You clearly love and cherish your children very much, putting them first in every way. Maybe also put your own feelings first too. Sometimes PDs make us do things and convince us it's 'for the best'. They achieve this through the emotional abuse. That's where the responsibility lies, with your husband.

Absolutely.  Nanotech is correct in that my scenario was entirely different.  Hugs to you, Sparkstilllit.   

[SparkStillLit]

Thank you both, and I sure don't mean to hijack your thread Sidney!
I loathe the idea of being the enabler. I fear it. I fight against it.
The same thing happened with my other beautiful cat and lovely dog, in case you wondered.
Everyone else I've put my foot right down and they've spent/are spending their natural lives with us. Cats & dogs.

[nanotech]

I've had a reaction to VLC with UNPDsister.
I didn't send her a birthday card this year.
I'm not sending cards right now anyway. But this is also part of my lower contact due to her continual refusal to respect my boundaries.
( She told me she doesn't 'get' boundaries.That meant, 'I'm happily going to ignore any boundary you put up.'
Well, it's my birthday in a few weeks. Looked at my post this morning and a rather horrid and age-inappropriate card has come for me. . It looks like the last card you would pick from the corner shop- a desperation card. It's suitable for a tween age boy. Yet it's so early, so it can't be last minute. She's signed it differently than usual, as if for an acquaintance rather than from family. 
I knew she would send one. They are obsessed with the sending of cards. It has to happen. But it doesn't have to be nice. They send cards not always for the right reasons. 

[illogical]

,,,I said to my son a while ago, please make sure you choose a good partner in life. Because I look at my parents and see exactly what happens when people get involved in the long-term with a vampire/NPD/toxic I don't know what to call it, but it sucks the life out of people.

We, as children, have been through too much because of it. Swim to fresh clean water and sunlight. Go NC and stick with it and believe with all of your being that you cannot save these people, your parents. They can only save themselves.

I agree with you, Hepatica.  I have had a similar situation.

Sidney37,

I know you want a relationship with your enabling dad.  I don't know if that's possible.  Maybe look at this as doing whatever you need to do short term.  So, if you feel you need to go NC with your dad, it doesn't have to be forever.  It can be temporary, until you figure out what is best for you.

The painful truth is that your dad has thrown you under the bus because he wants to align himself with your mom.  He's not likely going to change.  Still, you have to decide for yourself what is the "right" thing to do.  YOU have to be the one to assess the situation and move in the direction you think is right for you and your family.

As I said in my previous post, my dad was a coward.  I lost respect for him, even though he had given me more than some fathers would have-- but I'm talking about material things here, not love or respect or empathy.

I don't mean to sound "clinical" here, but maybe do a cost/benefit analysis of your dad.  What is he giving you?  Write it out, specifically.  What is he doing to benefit your life?  On the other side of the equation, what is he doing to enable the dysfunction? 

I have made decisions in this regard based on the actions of the individual, not what they say.  So I encourage you to take a long, hard look at what your dad has DONE to better your life, versus what he has SAID, which I don't think, given his actions, can be trusted.

I wish you the best in this most difficult decision.  I do think you have come so very far in your journey to reclaim your life!   

[nanotech]

Illogical wrote-
"I don't mean to sound "clinical" here, but maybe do a cost/benefit analysis of your dad.  What is he giving you?  Write it out, specifically.  What is he doing to benefit your life?  On the other side of the equation, what is he doing to enable the dysfunction?  ""

Brilliant advice that I have to second. It's so hard when we even BEGIN to entertain the notion that they might be doing us more harm than good. This applies particularly to enablers.
In my view,  it's a step we must all take toward true self compassion and self differentiation.

[Spring Butterfly]

How do I sop feeling like a 12-year-old who is being disrespectful and a rule breaker when staying NC or VLC?

I hear you and walked away with a similar sort of feeling after a recent text exchange with uPDm and I'm in VLC myself meaning I don't reach out but I don't block either.

I recently opened this book again (link below) just to review and re-center and make sure I had covered acceptance and individuation appropriately enough to let go. It really helped me take a step back. It's one of my favorites I go back to for reference. You might find it helpful even just the notes in the book review thread here

https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=29251.0

[Sidney37]

Hi all.  Thanks again, as always, for the advice and support.  I needed it this week, for sure. 

No worries SparkStillLit.  You didn't hijack the thread.  It does seem like you are brave and resilient.  I'm so sorry for what you've endured.

So I responded to the text.  Maybe I should have and maybe I shouldn't have, but I did.  Not right away because I refuse to give in to a demand to respond within hours.  In the end, I'm glad I did because the response from him solidified my need to be NC with him as well.  I just have to get over my fear of consequence, because with them there is always a consequence that you don't expect. 

They have latched onto 2 very basic boundaries that I set last year as the only reasons that I am VLC/NC.  Like any PD parent with an estranged child, they won't consider anything I have told them, gotten angry about or tried to set boundaries about in 30+ years as a reason because I won't send her a list that she can rip apart.   They are acting like I am petty and crazy for going NC over these 2 basic boundaries.  They won't accept that it is 30 years worth of verbal abuse and manipulation. 

In the end, he explained away the suicide attempt in a way that made it clear that he has totally rewritten the incident.  He also told me that my grandmother said hateful things to my mother many years ago, so I should just ignore the things my mother says to me (which in his opinion aren't as bad as the things my grandmother said).  He also described how my mother says critical things (his way of describing her verbal abuse and severe control over him) to him and once he thinks about them (once she gaslights him) he realizes that he has taken them the wrong way, overreacted and determined they weren't hurtful but just meant to help him.    I should understand that she is just trying to help me when she says these critical things to me.    It's like listening to a domestic violence victim who has been physically assaulted but then defending his/her partner who just assaulted him or her.  He's determined that her verbal abuse is for his own good and I should do the same.

I want to reply (but I won't) that I had no idea (sarcasm) that a lengthy list of hateful things she has said to me and threatened me with over 30 years were meant to be helpful.  I know she'll gaslight, deny or explain them away.  There is no way the things she has said are meant to be helpful.

So yes, now I know that there is no changing his mind.  The cost/benefit consideration is a great one.  Thank you.   I don't see a benefit of communicating with either one of them.  There are costs.  I've lost my entire extended family.  Not a one is talking to me other than to serve as a flying monkey.  I wouldn't put it past her to have smeared me to old high school friends, teachers, co-workers, etc. who still live in my hometown where I haven't lived in many years.  There will be consequences.  She is an expert at giving consequences while playing the put upon victim.   

[Lisa]

I just have to get over my fear of consequence, because with them there is always a consequence that you don't expect. 



This is something I am reminded of over and over again!  That no matter what I do, how I respond, it won't be good enough and/or there will still be a consequence.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't!