The nice waif

[WinterStar]

Hello lovely folks. My mom has always been a nice lady. She's the waify victim, true, and can suck out emotional energy as well as any PD.  She can make any conversation about how cruel life has been to her. She always wants more time and attention. I have a long list of hurtful things she has done and said. But she does not intentionally inflict harm. I guess this is where I get all mixed up. My mom doesn't yell (since I've been an adult). She doesn't call me names. She has told me that I'm a good mother. She comes when I need emergency childcare. I read things about toxic mothers sometimes, and it doesn't resonate. Many stories, even about waify mothers, involve a great deal of intentional cruelty.

Anybody else out there have a "nice" waify PD in their lives?

[Andeza]

As she got older, uBPDm lost most of the rage I remembered from my early childhood. I still saw the occasional flash of the witch, but usually lasting only a minute or two and then poof. It is still a toxic dynamic though. What you're describing, the waifing, is typically either a manipulation tactic to get something they want, or to get attention for all the wrong reasons, or to essentially dump all the unregulated emotions on you because they can't process it. The problem tends to occur that despite dumping their emotions on you, that's not enough. They have to relive it, and redump it, over and over again. Because every time they remember, the emotions come flooding back just as strong as ever and they can't process or handle it. It's an addiction for them, sadly.

No matter what she gets from it, you can rest assured she gets something out of it. The true question is does the waifing bring harm to you? It did to me.

[Thru the Rain]

People exist on a continuum, generally not all good or all bad. And certainly that seems to hold true for people with PD - there are differing degrees.

I agree with Andeza when she asked if the waifing brings harm to you.

I'm reminded of a phrase I've been baffled by for years. You hear it on the news sometimes: Light Gunfire. What does that mean to the person who gets hit? Do doctors at the hospital say "Well it was only **light gunfire** so get off that gurney you slacker". No they don't.

Since your M presents herself to the world as **nice**, you feel like you're not allowed to notice any harm she causes.

My own uPDM pretends to be nice, and the only person she's fooling is herself. So while she's certainly waify, she's not a nice lady.

[Hepatica]

It's such a puzzle, isn't it? WinterStar I grapple with my own diagnosis of family - and my sister is very waify - and not overtly mean... but loves, loves, loves to talk about her pains until my eyes used to glaze over. Definitely one check for need for attention. I guess when we look at the personality disorders as we try to figure it out, we have to check off the check list and see how many others they get - even from the past. They might have learned how to keep their mask on tight with age, and bc you no longer live with her, she can hide her dark side?

If though, they seek attention, also manipulate, have control issues and any other signs of PD then they might be just a low on the spectrum PD?

I am no expert. All I know is lots of things began to make me feel creepy around my sister, father and mother over the years. It was only when the pressure was on (when my mom went into hospital) that the PD behaviour went up, and it was more like what they were like in childhood - very very ugly and scary indeed.

[Danden]

I can relate to some of what you say.  My M too appears to be a nice person to others, and sometimes to me too.  But in middle age, I realized that she does not want good things for me, and is resentful and envious of good things that I have in my own life.   She even resents me because I have 3 children and she had 2, among other things.  I didn't always understand this about her, but eventually I realized this, in my 40's.  That, together with things she has done and said throughout my life to put me down and marginalize me from my FOO and other people, is most of the problem I have with her.  She has never been very cruel or violent like some of the PDs I read about on this site.  Sometimes I even feel like I don't belong on this forum, to be honest. 

But I noticed what  you said:  "I have a long list of hurtful things she has done and said. But she does not intentionally inflict harm."  Was ALL of it unintentional?  No possible self-serving motivation on her part?  Has no-one ever told her of the effect of  her words and actions?  Do some of her actions have long-lasting effects?  How does she respond?  Is she able to reflect on  her own words and behaviors and understand they are wrong?  Does she apologize?  Does she do things to reconcile?  Does she take responsibility?   Or does she just not care how she affects others?  Or does she expect others to feel sorry for her and let it go?   Cause everyone knows she is "nice" and doesn't mean it?  My M is always looking for others to excuse her behavior.  Maybe you are excusing her behavior yourself? It is all very difficult.   Just some things to think about.

[Psuedonym]

Hey WinterStar,

Your post interests me a lot, because of the cognitive dissonance part it seems that your struggling with.  A few questions for you. You mentioned that: I have a long list of hurtful things she has done and said. Has she ever acknowledged or apologized for these things? What would happen if you brought them up? 

You also said She can make any conversation about how cruel life has been to her. She always wants more time and attention. What happens if you say you don't want to hear about how cruel life has been to her for the billionth time or say no to giving her more time and attention?

I ask these things because mine, like a lot of other PDS, could be perfectly nice as long as she was getting exactly what she wanted. When she didn't, the whining, guilt tripping ''you haaavvvve to' came out, or the rage. But the rage doesn't have to be a tactic.

Here are a few videos that helped me a lot and that you might find interesting. The first is from the awesome Les Carter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvp5DHkGtpY  (Agenda Driven Empathy and 'The You Owe Me' mindset are particularly interesting). The second one is from Dr. Daniel Fox, and I think is a really good description of covert narcissism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLAmXNnQ3JA A quote from that: They want to be noticed for all the pain and difficulty they're going through. That's what makes them unique. That's where their narcissism shows up....they have to get their needs met, because they suffer like no other

Another reason I included that one is that Dr. Fox describes in another video the scale of the spectrum of PDs and he said that the waifish NPD who looks a lot like (and also often has borderline) is actually at the far end of the spectrum. I was so blown away by that I emailed him to confirm it and he said that they were in fact the most difficult to treat and at that far end.

So, in short, you're here for a reason and no, its not your imagination or you blowing things out of proportion. Someone doesn't have to scream at you and throw tantrums to be really disordered. Hopefully those videos will help a bit!

[Sneezy]

Many people with PDs are very good at compartmentalizing.  They have several, unique version of themselves.  One extreme example of compartmentalization is the guy who has two completely different families in different states that don't know anything about each other.   I wonder if you mom has the sweet, little old lady version of herself that you (and most others) see much of the time, and then she also has the martyr version, where everyone is mean to her and life is awful.  Most people who know my mom would say she is a sweet, little old lady who goes to church every Sunday.  But that's because they have never seen the martyr, or the liar, or the cheater, or the mom who swears like a sailor at the drop of a hat, or the drill sergeant who expects every command to be followed.  PDs are good at fooling both themselves and others.

[MamaDryad]

Another thing to think about is locus of control. My own mother was very angry, often emotionally and sometimes physically violent with me, when I was a child. As I grew up, those traits receded because she didn't have any power over me except for what I gave her. Her behavior started to skew more waify, because she knew that was more likely to get attention/care from me. Once she's drawn me back in, she proceeds to hurt me however she can, but always more covert/deniable/"unintentional."

I used to struggle with guilt that I still reacted to her as the monster of my childhood, even though now she's a sad old lady who has no power over me. But I've come to understand that it's merely a change in tactics, not in her basic goal or nature.

My mother was not usually cruel when she was sober, but she chose not to be sober, every night of my life. She knew it disinhibited her from expressing the cruel and angry parts of her, and she did it anyway. She was also self medicating from enormous trauma and psychological pain. So in my story, what is intention? Does it matter?

Just some stuff that might be useful to consider in the context of your own experiences.

[Spring Butterfly]

Intention goes to motive and we can't read hearts and minds. This is one reason the toolbox and list of traits focuses on behaviors. The motive is really inconsequential to the damage done and are healing work.

[Hilltop]

My mom also appears nice to everyone.  They wouldn't believe me if I told them the things she has done or said.  She has never raged at me. I thought it was interesting what Danden said because I can really relate.  I remember DH telling my mother that he wanted to provide nice things for me, her response "why do you want to that for her".  In her mind it was boggling that someone would want to do nice things for me, that was very telling.  However I have pushed those things aside trying to believe she didn't mean it that way, it was unintentional.

However those questions of Dandens are so accurate, "Is she able to reflect on  her own words and behaviors and understand they are wrong?  Does she apologize?  Does she do things to reconcile?  Does she take responsibility?   Or does she just not care how she affects others?  Or does she expect others to feel sorry for her and let it go?   Cause everyone knows she is "nice" and doesn't mean it?  My M is always looking for others to excuse her behavior."

The apology I get from my mother is "I'm sorry you feel that way", "I am sorry you are upset", its never a genuine apology of "I'm sorry I hurt you".  She has never taken responsibility, she has always expected me to let things go, I haven't been able to talk about things with her as she just wants to know what's wrong and then conversation over.

The waif doesn't need to yell and rage, they can do just as much damage by their actions.  I'm at the point of wondering why bother,  every time I feel things have settled something happens to show me it's the same old game.  The thing is so many times I have told myself that my mother doesn't intentionally mean to be cruel but is that to protect myself because some of the things she has done are mean, she doesn't do that to her friends so she does know better which means on some level she must know its wrong, she just knows I'll put up with it.

[M0009803]

Another thing to think about is locus of control. My own mother was very angry, often emotionally and sometimes physically violent with me, when I was a child. As I grew up, those traits receded because she didn't have any power over me except for what I gave her. Her behavior started to skew more waify, because she knew that was more likely to get attention/care from me. Once she's drawn me back in, she proceeds to hurt me however she can, but always more covert/deniable/"unintentional."

I used to struggle with guilt that I still reacted to her as the monster of my childhood, even though now she's a sad old lady who has no power over me. But I've come to understand that it's merely a change in tactics, not in her basic goal or nature.

My mother was not usually cruel when she was sober, but she chose not to be sober, every night of my life. She knew it disinhibited her from expressing the cruel and angry parts of her, and she did it anyway. She was also self medicating from enormous trauma and psychological pain. So in my story, what is intention? Does it matter?

Just some stuff that might be useful to consider in the context of your own experiences.

Our mother was a lot like this as well.  Emotionally abusive growing up with occasional bouts of physical abuse, but these tapered off once we got older and could defend ourselves.

She then shifted to emotional abuse and waif like behavior as we got older.

I have reflected on this shift to understand what exactly was going on, and I think they mold their dysfunction based on what they perceive to be the road of least resistance.

The real problem is they truly believe they have your best interests in mind when they act the way that they do.  This is also the primary reason why having a healthy relationship with them is not possible, as they will keep shifting tactics and damaging you.  You are essentially faced with a situation were interacting with them is an energy sucking experience, and this has a cummulative effect over time.

[Boat Babe]

I love Woman Interrupted's term: Full Metal Waif.

Kinda describes my mother to a tee!  I find this behaviour maddening and frustrating and have to work really hard not to react. Plus, she is now a very elderly woman who is frail and vulnerable in reality, so there's elements of truth in the mix. Gargh!!!!

As in all dealings with the PDs in our lives, we have to remember the three C's and look to our own wellbeing first and foremost.

Peace ❤️

[freedom77]

This is all so interesting, and such great responses.
MamaDryad so very true, I didn't fully realize this. When we were small, vulnerable and naive children fully dependent on them, with only them to lead us, there was tons more rage. Until I read what you said, I actually believed that BPD/N mother's ragefulness had dulled due to age. Mind you, she can still get nasty and even screamed at me right up until we went NC, but not as frequent or as bad as when I was a kid.  And not physically violent since my teens. And it's exactly as you say, it's because we grew up, got bigger, stronger, and they got older, and physically frailer. And we also are not dependent on them, and they have only the control we allow them (and they realize that one). Can't believe I didn't see this. I allowed her around my DD because I thought she had "mellowed"....until I found out she was actually just as toxic as ever, she just changed up her tactic and went covert style.

Andeza...I always wondered why mother kept "re-living" events, even petty comments someone made from years ago, and would go on and on about it to me. I didn't realize she was using me as her dumping ground. I'm learning so much from this site. I appreciate everyone's shared wisdom.

Winter Star...if it's causing you harm, and it appears to be because you're bothered enough by it, to ask advice on it, then it is toxic and your mother probably is doing it deliberately because perhaps it serves as a source of supply for her. PDs thrive on all things toxic, chaotic, dramatic, and like you said, can suck you dry emotionally. I feel that saying and doing cruel things is intentionally inflicting harm.

[WinterStar]

Hello all, thank you so much for your replies. I've been taking time to really reflect, and the input here has been very fruitful for me.

Yes, Andeza, my mom is big on dumping her raw emotions. She has over 60 years of hurts that she recounts in vivid detail and starts the stories with "I don't know if I ever told you this, but..." Yes, mom, you've told me about all of it for as long as I can remember. I recognize how harmful this is to me. I've known for a long time. I tried addressing it with her many years ago, and she told me that she tells me these stories of woe for my benefit, to help me learn from them. Which is, of course, bull. When I finally got through to her that this TMI behavior was hurtful to me, she ran out of the room sobbing. Over the years her oversharing has ebbed and flowed but never gone away. She doesn't want to stop doing it, and I'm not entirely sure she's even capable.

I don't think she's pretending to be nice. I think she's a walking wound.

[Andeza]

I'm glad all the input has been of value. I know I greatly value the shared resources and experiences here.

I once read a series of books (your walking wound comment brought out to mind) where the main protagonist is given a wound that cannot be healed by any means.  And in this wound evil just festered, like a twisted infection, for the next 12 books of the series. Eventually, he became a new man and the wound was no more. I feel like those with a pd have this wound filled with all the ills that have ever been done to them, and it cannot be healed until they become a new person. The problem is that many have no desire to do so. They see nothing wrong with themselves. And so they go on inflicting all their pain on us instead.

I tried on a few occasions to stop the regurgitation of woes from my own mother.  She talked over me. One time I called her on it, and she gave me the silent treat for a day after telling me I was rude.

Personally, I think trying to force someone to listen to an unpleasant story for the nth time is rude.

[DancingStar]

"She has over 60 years of hurts that she recounts in vivid detail and starts the stories with "I don't know if I ever told you this, but..."

This made me smile when I read it because it struck such a chord with me.   The number of times my mother starts a sentence like this, and like you, I have heard these things over and over again.   Does your mother  end her sentence with "I bet you never knew/thought that went on.....".  Which of course I did because I have been listening to the same things for umpteen years, like you have.

Curiously my recollections of events that she recounts are often very different to hers - people who make what I think were quite straightforward statements have "deliberately insulted" her and she;s never going to forget or forgive.