everything. just everything.

[Pepin]

Things are just exploding left and right it seems.  Right eye has been twitching nonstop stronger than it ever has, which to me is an indicator of bad things to come.  And I was right about that.

Yesterday was a disaster of a day.  I was triggered several times by different events and it led me to feeling stupid and irrelevant.  I literally was on the edge of having an episode and had to give myself a time out.  Today I am feeling slightly better but I am still disappointed with myself and how I feel about myself.

The day before yesterday I woke up early and carefully opened one eye to realize that DH was watching porn on his phone in bed next to me.  OMG.  We have talked about the porn enough already.  It is a sign that he is feeling engulfed again because the holidays are approaching and PDmil is yet again behaving like a waif, boo effing hoo.

DH told me that his sister wanted us to take PDmil for Thanksgiving since she was invited to another family member's home that PDmil doesn't like.  SIL also had PDmil last year....even though we have freaking hosted PDmil for every GD holiday since 2001. 

I cannot even convey the rage I am holding in at the moment as I process everything.  I am stuck.  Really don't know what to do.  Haven't seen PDmil since February.....don't care to ever see her again.  Don't want her in our home.  Kids don't like her; I don't really like her either.  DH puts up with her because he feels obligated.  Out of 4 kids why must PDmil's emotional wellbeing be exclusively DH's tab to pick up?  I know, he is a GC with lots of benefits that screw over his siblings.

DH has been pestering me about Thanksgiving and what we should do.  I DON"T KNOW!!!

What should I do?

And my neighbor is being a passive aggressive  pest again.  We actually live on a corner sandwiched between 2 narcissists.  Yay me.

[SunnyMeadow]

Wow, this all sounds awful! Please do what you can to reduce your stress. I ended up with a stress induced autoimmune disease because of my mother's crap.

I'd let dh know what I think of his porn watching, his mother, having her for Thanksgiving and everything else bothering you. Don't keep it bottled up. He can figure out a way to reduce his wife's stress level.

How about meet MIL at a restaurant for Thanksgiving? Could dh invite his other siblings to spread the misery around? Then you can all order, eat and leave!!  Actually now that I think about it, can you imagine MIL's waifing if you met her for dinner then high-tailed it out of the restaurant and away from her asap? 

Ugh, these people are the WORST because it's all about them at all times. And you live between 2 narcissists? No wonder you're stressed. I'm sorry Pepin.

[GettingOOTF]

You say you are “triggered” which maybe is an accurate descriptor. For me it’s a word I use when I feel I’m having a disproportionate reaction to something happening now that I never learned to cope with as a kid or was traumatic.

To me it seems like you are having a natural and reasonable reaction to incredibly stressful and unreasonable circumstances.

I have pretty neutral views on porn and masturbation in a relationship. I feel everyone has a right to their release and “inner life” but in bed next to me while I was sleeping would cross a major boundary for me.

Your husband is putting his feelings of obligation to his mother above the feelings of his wife and children. Only you can decide if that is acceptable to you. Only you know what your boundaries are.

Honestly I’d ask him to leave and sort himself out but that’s me.

Keeping your anger in will only hurt you in the long run. You have a right to express you needs and emotions.

What do YOU want to do about it Thanksgiving? If he’s pestering you about it tell him what you want.  Set some boundaries.

I’ve been divorced for a few years now and I was jsut thinking today that this is the first time I’m actually looking forward to Thanksgiving. The holidays were total hell for me when I was married and I couldn’t acknowledge them for years as they were so triggering for me.

You are under no obligation to spend time with anyone you don’t want to.

I don’t know the boundaries of your marriage but if you’ve discussed his porn use before and made your feelings known then him using it in the marital bed right next to you while he thought you were asleep is a major violation that you have every right to call him on. This would be a relationship dealbreaker for me.

[Thru the Rain]

I second the restaurant idea for Thanksgiving.

DH and I have gone to various restaurants for Thanksgiving for years. Anyone who says it's not "real" Thanksgiving is welcome to host whatever they think is "real" at their home - we're not stopping them.

We don't end up with a ton of work, expense of a huge dinner, left overs or lingering relatives.

Do a little research and find a few options in your area. I would look at nice hotels too since they often put on great holiday meals.

Editing to add: Yes this situation is unreasonable. Both you and your DH are feeling stressed out by SIL and MIL, even though you react differently.

I feel so frustrated on your behalf since (from previous posts) it seems like your DH often picks MIL's side when he's under pressure. And she makes sure he's under pressure.

I would right this very minute start lining up other relatives who can "invite" you to Christmas and Easter - and next year's Thanksgiving. I am willing to bet this is what SIL is up to.

And honestly picking out family that MIL doesn't like sounds like genius!

And if you think that won't fly, start inviting A LOT of family that MIL doesn't like to your house for every holiday since you're getting stuck hosting all the time anyway. Especially someone who might pick an argument with MIL and watch her fume. Or fill your house with your friends or family from your side - enough people that MIL's presence is diluted, and dancing attendance on her is left to your DH.

Or plan Thanksgiving for an odd and inconvenient time - 10:00 AM or 9:00 PM. Or plan a really weird menu. These two are a little obvious, and maybe passive-aggressive, but think along the lines of taking back control. You MIL is looking for a nice Thanksgiving - if she's foisted on you, decline to provide a nice Thanksgiving.

I have former friend who used to invite people to parties at different times. The people they really liked were invited to come early so they could enjoy their company. We weren't on the early list, so when DH and I would arrive, the food was dried up and picked over, and it was clear that the party had been going on for a while. It was unpleasant and insulting and after a couple times we declined all invitations. Again this is pretty blatant and mean and passive aggressive, but if MIL arrives to be offered a plate of leftovers - well it's turkey and its Thanksgiving, but the not at all subtle message is "you're not welcome here" and it's definitely taking the gloves off.

Or a little selective incompetence. MIL's favorite dish is burned, or just not made well at all? Isn't that a shame? She only drinks tea, but all you have in the house is Mountain Dew? Another shame. She just has to be home by 7:00 to be in bed but you have dinner planned to start at 6:30? Again, what a shame! She has a favorite desert but just HATES the bakery on your side of town (and she sounds like the sort of person who would have enemy bakeries), "Oh I thought that was the bakery you LOVED. Maybe next year?".

And if you're thinking this will ruin your Thanksgiving too - well it sounds to me like all of YOUR Thanksgivings have been ruined, but MIL's Thanksgivings have been just fine. Time to become one of the families MIL doesn't want to visit.

[Alexmom]

I think you should just be honest with your DH and tell him you do not want to host his mother.  You don't like her.  Your kids don't like her.   Your DH tolerates her out of a groomed and strong sense of obligation towards her.  She has ruined your past gatherings by her behavior.  This is not the experience you or your kids want to have on Thanksgiving.  This is not the legacy you want to leave, and the memories you want your kids to have at Thanksgiving. 

If your DH feels so inclined, to ease his feeling of self imposed guilt he can always visit his mother earlier in the day. 

Your MIL has choices with how she spends Thanksgiving.   It isn't your responsibility to solve this for her.

[Medowynd]

I wouldn't ruin another holiday by placating MIL.  I suggest a restaurant meal either the weekend before or after with separate vehicles so that you can leave when you want.  I would plan a fun Thanksgiving with you and your girls.  If your husband wants to spend the day with his mother, over his family, that is his poor choice to make.  I stopped caring about narcs' feelings along time ago, because they sure never cared about mine.

[Medowynd]

I wouldn't ruin another holiday by placating MIL.  I suggest a restaurant meal either the weekend before or after with separate vehicles so that you can leave when you want.  I would plan a fun Thanksgiving with you and your girls.  If your husband wants to spend the day with his mother, over his family, that is his poor choice to make.  I stopped caring about narcs' feelings along time ago, because they sure never cared about mine.

[Hilltop]

Pepin, tell your DH that MIL can go have Thanksgiving with SIL as planned.  If she has decided that she doesn't like the family where SIL is going then so be it, MIL can decide on whether she goes or not.  This isn't your problem.

Think about this SIL has planned to go somewhere where she knows MIL doesn't want to go, so why is this now your problem.  SIL obviously doesn't care if MIL isn't happy so why are you. Just tell DH that this is SIL's problem.  SIL hosted her for one year and funnily enough has decided that she won't do that again.

If you have hosted most Thanksgivings then tell DH you want to do something else this year, a quite one at home, or plan to go to a restaurant or have some friends or other family over.  Think about what YOU want to do and then tell DH.  He is asking what you are going to do so give him a plan and tell him that you won't be hosting MIL this year, that you want a break.

I would suggest a meal on either the weekend before or after with MIL as Medowynd says.  That will alleviate DH of his guilt and you can tell him to just put it back on SIL to sort out.  All you need to tell SIL is that it doesn't work to have MIL this year and SIL will have to think of something else.  Let her worry about MIL and you worry about your family.

[Leonor]

Hi Pepin,

You're not alone and so justified and normal in your feelings.

Re: MIL. Reminds me of the Dr Evil response from the Austin Powers movie: "How about NO?" That clip showed up in a commercial lately and I am using it All The Time.

And DH using pornography is not a healthy way to deal with MIL stress and hugely disrespectful towards you, especially since you have made your feelings clear. So yes that is emotionally abusive.

Your house. Your bed. Your time. Your rights. How about spending Thanksgiving with MIL? How about NO?

Also have you read any of Ken Adams' books or visited his website? He has a YouTube video with a message for partners of mother-enmeshed men that is amazing. It was so validating for me, and I think you may find it helpful too. He is an expert on male spouses enmeshed with their mothers and talks a lot about how many of these men turn to pornography, sex addiction, etc., to deal with their feelings. He is also way on board with supporting the spouse and holding enmeshed men accountable.

Remember, How about NO?

[bloomie]

Pepin - this is a lot to deal with all at once. It seems like some hard conversations are ahead for you and negotiating some agreements. Never easy, but especially hard when there is a sense of obligation and guilt in our partners that nothing seems to penetrate.

I just read this blog post by Brené Brown about having a rumble that reminds me to show up with an open mind so that I can work better to solve problems with my own DH...

A rumble is a discussion, conversation, or meeting defined by a commitment to lean into vulnerability, to stay curious and generous, to stick with the messy middle of problem identification and solving, to take a break and circle back when necessary, to be fearless in owning our parts, and, as psychologist Harriet Lerner teaches, to listen with the same passion with which we want to be heard.

https://brenebrown.com/blog/2019/05/01/lets-rumble/

Strength and wisdom to you as you find the best way forward and if/how/when to have a 'rumble' addressing these very serious and upsetting issues.

Let us know how you are.

[Pepin]

Also have you read any of Ken Adams' books or visited his website? He has a YouTube video with a message for partners of mother-enmeshed men that is amazing. It was so validating for me, and I think you may find it helpful too. He is an expert on male spouses enmeshed with their mothers and talks a lot about how many of these men turn to pornography, sex addiction, etc., to deal with their feelings. He is also way on board with supporting the spouse and holding enmeshed men accountable.

Yes.... I am very aware of Ken Adams.  He is extremely niche and I wish that more people would start expanding his practices.  This is how I put two and two together with regards to the porn.  I am married to the GC who is 1 of 4 children to immigrant parents.  The burden falls heavily on DH wile his other 3 siblings get to live their lives.  My DH is literally PDmil's retirement plan.  I get it that a lot of this is cultural but that doesn't mean it is acceptable, especially when it causes pain to me (who is not of their culture and also a child of an immigrant) and our kids who denounce and are not treated the way PDmil treats DH.  DH has so much power and I am flummoxed as to why he struggles so hard with boundaries.  Instead, he takes it out on me and our kids.  I'm trying hard not to blow up before having my ducks in a row.  Talking with him is such a challenge because he gets his undies in a bunch real fast unless presented with hard evidence...

 

[Hilltop]

Pepin I can relate.  My inlaws are also immigrants and DH is the GC and he is their retirement plan.  They rely so heavily on him for everything, even simple things they don't do, they call him straight away.  I was not accepted either, I'm not of their culture and they have made it clear they only value blood relatives.  I gave up on them a long time ago.  Luckily there is only one holiday they celebrate so I see them once a year.

My DH also struggles with boundaries and would never dream of taking his frustration out on his parents, I remember once when he did say no to them he told me he felt physically sick.  Its really hard and he doesn't see that their relationship is not healthy,  he just thinks they are close.

I could never talk to him about his parents until I changed what I said.  I no longer talk about his mother or issues, I talk about myself.  So for Thanksgiving I would say what you want to do and who you want there, perhaps say you don't feel like hosting and cooking for heaps of people so you want to keep it small.  DH was less defensive than me saying "I don't want your mother here".  I'm not sure what would work but it may be easier and not lead to an argument.  That's why maybe offering up another weekend and he can take her to lunch may help him feel less guilty.  Has he said what he wants to do?  I'm also wondering if the porn is a form of baiting.  He does it in bed you have a massive fight and then to get things back on an even keel you are agreeing to having his mother at Thanksgiving. 

I've told my DH that he will burn out with everything they have him running around to do but now I let him go, I let him jump and he is slowly putting boundaries in place as he was getting tired.  I am going to look up Ken Adams as my MIL treats my DH as a spouse and FIL is still alive, I am not sure what will happen when he goes.

I just wanted to say its really horrible to have to deal with this.

[Adria]

Oh, Pepin,

Wow! So much all at once . . . and at the holidays!  I would sit down with dh and pick each issue off with him one at a time. Don't keep it in, it's too much.

Personally, I would offer to let dh take his mother out for dinner to a restaurant of their choosing on Thanksgiving. And you and the kids do something fun and enjoyable.  Maybe order something in or go to a different restaurant, watch a great movie, go for a walk in the woods, go shopping, whatever makes you happy.  To me, there's no reason to stick to holiday traditions when it's so stinking miserable.  If dh and his mother want to be miserable, let them be miserable together. Now, this Thanksgiving, it might be the perfect time to start a new tradition (on your terms).  I wish you all the best. Hugs, Adria

[Pepin]

I could never talk to him about his parents until I changed what I said.  I no longer talk about his mother or issues, I talk about myself.  So for Thanksgiving I would say what you want to do and who you want there, perhaps say you don't feel like hosting and cooking for heaps of people so you want to keep it small.  DH was less defensive than me saying "I don't want your mother here".  I'm not sure what would work but it may be easier and not lead to an argument.  That's why maybe offering up another weekend and he can take her to lunch may help him feel less guilty.  Has he said what he wants to do?  I'm also wondering if the porn is a form of baiting.  He does it in bed you have a massive fight and then to get things back on an even keel you are agreeing to having his mother at Thanksgiving. 

What I would like to do is to keep holidays just for our nuclear family to celebrate and if he wants to go do something with her separately, then he can do that without the kids and I.  For whatever reason, he thinks that by having us celebrate holidays with her, that it somehow smooths things over - but it really creates more tension.  And you are absolutely correct about the need to use the right language. I feel that this is how many of us get ourselves into trouble and make it worse.  I did try this several years ago when he tried to include her on my birthday dinner and I quickly told him that I only wanted to celebrate with him and the kids and nothing beyond that.  My birthday, my rules.  And he didn't push back.  He knows I hate my birthday.  The holidays are slightly trickier to navigate though....unfortunately, they always seem to be about PDmil and I have never been able to voice that to him.  We literally bend over backwards to accommodate her rather than just enjoying the holiday and that has to stop. 

As for the porn, I am not going to mention it to him because I know he will go nuts and claim that I don't put out enough blah, blah, blah...on some level he is right that I don't give it to him as much as before because for me it is emotional.  I feel so betrayed by his relationship with PDmil and porn that it seems like a chore to get intimate.  I'm happy just hugging him as we sleep.  I only do it to appease him at this point so he will be happy for a few days....

The challenge of me being of another race and not having a singular culture to identify with has been extremely hard for me to come to terms with.  It makes me feel damaged as a human being not having cultural traditions.  And sadly, DH and I really haven't had the freedom to create many of our own traditions because of PDmil's presence.