Those who are divorced, a quesrion

[Prototypian]

How did you overcome the looking fear of guilt?   Fear of hurting your children, fear of hurting someone you are codependent with, fear of guilt of breaking up a marriage?    I really struggle with this.

[Boat Babe]

I can answer your question re the children very easily.

From personal and professional experience, children do very badly in a dysfunctional household. Very badly. The sooner they can be in a safe, sane and consistent atmosphere, the better.

Have no guilt about making a better life for yourself and your children. They will thank you for it one day.

[Call Me Cordelia]

 

I begged my mother to leave my father as a child. She wouldn't do it and how-dare-you. She blamed the Babysitter's Club for normalizing divorce and making me think it was cool. I'm still suffering the consequences of her selfish choice to put her codependency and public face over her children's well-being.

You obviously have more awareness and willingness to see reality than my mother. Can you keep them safe in your marriage? Leaving a marriage is a big deal and of course it ought not to be done lightly. Too many people do that. But you seem the opposite. I haven't read most of your posts but you've been on this fence a long time, friend. It also pears you don't really think you should stay.

You can feel fear and do a thing anyway. That's called bravery, and you can be brave. You can do the work to be able to provide a safe atmosphere. What could you accomplish if you took the energy you put into dithering into making things better for yourself and your kids? It's also true you're not ready until you're ready, and nothing I or anybody else can say will make a decision for you. Only you can do that. Are you able to work with a counselor? This is a big burden; in person support is important.

[GettingOOTF]

For me I was able to leave when I finally started to see why I stayed. For me it was because I looked to others to fulfil me and I had no inner life of my own. I grew up in a chaotic home and that was my norm.

I don't have kid but I remember my sisters and I wishing our parents would get divorced so we could have some peace and stability.

We swore we'd do better but all three of us exactly recreated our parents marriage and now I see similar patterns with their children. These things are inter generational until someone steps outside the cycle. My parents marriage hurt all of us.

None of this is easy. You will never wake up one day and feel "ready". It will always be hard and scary to leave and only you can overcome that fear. There is nothing anyone can say to make you feel better about your situation, there are no magic words. It's like that saying "the only way out is through".

I can write pages and pages on how great life is for me now. You have to find a way to trust your gut and know that you are doing the right thing even though it feels scary. Leaving was hard for me. I went back more than once, but one day it stuck. I hope it does for you too.

[blunk]

Though we didn't have children, I certainly had the looming guilt of which you spoke. And he made sure of that...I was accused of just casting him aside, wasting 20 years of his life, not caring about his feelings...and then of course there were threats against me, the house, the dogs and a plenty of suicide threats.

I looked at the way I was living. My stomach tied in a knot every time I heard his ringtone on my phone; I would close my office door at work when he called because I would usually end up on the floor under my desk in tears; after his rages (and more often as things got worse) I would find myself rocking and crying while repeating to myself "I can't f#$%ing do this anymore"; I fluctuated between not being able to eat at all and stress eating; I had CONSTANT heartburn and frequent headaches; I never fully slept because I was so hyper-vigilant so I was completely exhausted all of the time, and it was affecting my work; I could not remember the last time I was happy in my marriage.

Then during one of his moments of clarity I said something along the lines of, if any of my friends or family treated me the way you do, they wouldn't be in my life anymore. And he asked, then why am I? I didn't have an answer. I had long since fallen out of love with him, it was only FOG that was keeping me where I was. And I knew that none of those were valid reasons to continue in a relationship that was mentally, emotionally, and even physically unhealthy for me.

I'm sorry you are going through this, and only you can know what is right for your situation. But please don't let fear be what keeps you from finding peace for yourself and your children. As I've said, I don't have children, but from what I have read on this forum it seems that children inevitably do better, and typically thrive, when they are removed from the toxic PD environment. Even if they were to spend part of their time with their mother, you can use the time you have with them to model healthy relationships, introduce (possibly with the help of a T) ways to cope when they are with their mother, and just allow them to have the fun that is sucked out of life when living with a PD.

Good luck to you, on whichever path you choose.

[Mitchy]

I agree with everything that's been said so far. Your kids will adapt and be happier in the long run. I know if I had left earlier it would have saved me a lot of money that is going to therapists for them now due to the trauma they endured because I stayed longer than I should have.

My opinion, there will always be something in life to second guess or feel guilty about. But every day the whys of your decision will become clearer. It's hard a first and very scary, but the overall peace of being out and not having to obey all their rules and take their abuse is so very worth it. 

[Kat54]

The experiences I had as a child in a dysfunctional home and then being in a marriage that was dysfunctional. My parents split permanently when I was a teen. My father cried when he moved out and I felt terrible for him as the obvious guilt he felt was very apparent but at the same time the relief that came over me. The constant fighting, the tension, most of it got better but unfortunately my father thought it best we stay with our mother who was barely fit as a parent with a severe drinking problem and depression. I begged my father to let me move in with him and at the time it was the mother who cared for the children and he worked as my mother did not. Not sure who the better parent was but at the time I thought my dad was and the lasting effects of him leaving us behind, and then my mother eventually committing suicide...well I could say scared me for life.
Then jumping into a marriage that was verbally abusive. I drew on my experience from my own family and my parents when I made the decision to leave my ex. I think my son was relieved and my daughter was upset and I felt tremendous guilt but in the end it was best for them also. Today, they are doing OK I think. They still live with their father so I don't see them as much as I would like, which isn't the best scenario as my ex continues to be verbally abusive, I just don't hear or see it as much. They are both in their early 20's and just about ready to fly the coup from their home, but I think it will be difficult as he's very controlling and entices them as the fun father with money and toys like boats, trips, ski vacations.  We are still in the process of adjusting and hoping they come more and more to my home as a reprieve from his craziness.  Sometimes I wish I left sooner when the kids were a little younger but like you, the fear was paralyzing and the guilt of the unknowns was so overwhelming.  My thought is, it all happened when it did for reasons that I'm not sure and someday they may become more clear. I still struggle with the guilt but every day gets better.

[Free2Bme]

I struggled long and hard for years with this.  It was excruciating for me, so I am sympathetic to your concerns.  This was the progression that informed my decision to leave.

-  When I realized the damage was extending to the 4 children, this was big.  ( I had been telling myself that I could manage the situation and buffer the children and only I was being abused, I was fooling myself. )  In reality, I was an accomplice, because I was allowing it to go on.  It was teaching my boys that a man is to domineer and put women in fear to gain power and control.  It was teaching my daughters that this is what they should expect from men.  Ultimately, the message was- there is no consequence for abuse.

- When I realized that pdH knew what he was doing was wrong.  (I had been telling myself he was behaving this was because of his FOO, and didn't fully realize how he was damaging his family, blah, blah, blah.)  Not only did he fully know, he derived satisfaction by raging and subjugating everyone in fear (at the expense of his precious children).  This was unconscionable to me.  He would launch into a campaign of terror over the smallest infarction.  Weekends were the worst, we were regularly held hostage for an entire day (literally), and sometimes the whole weekend while he manufactured chaos, then would hold a family meeting and blame children and I for making him angry.

- When I realized he would never agree/accept/apply help from professional counselor/clergy/book/anyone.  We did an intervention style meeting to "discuss Daddy's rage and how it makes me feel",  all four of my sweet children braved up and spoke articulately and respectfully about their fathers anger/control issues.  H told counselor that the children and I were all crazy and had anger issues.  There you go.

-When I stopped lying to myself and accepted this was what I was dealing with and it was not going to get better (that definition of insanity).  I was the healthier person, and someone had to stop the madness.  As a Christian I searched scriptures for wisdom and understanding about God's will for my marriage and children.  I concluded that my H had abandoned the marriage when he set out to destroy it  and that God is antithetical to abuse, especially innocent children. 

I left the door open a tiny bit as I proceeded with the divorce.  I watched and waited to see if he would have a change of heart. At any point during the process, pdH could have responded to the wake up call, "crap, I'm gonna lose my family if I don't get some help!"  , he didn't have that response, this was his CHOICE and my ANSWER.

"Fear of hurting the children"-  my children were hurt living in a war zone.  If it is not likely or reasonable to expect dramatic change for the better within the marriage (family system), then are we not ensuring/perpetuating the damage we want to avoid?

"Guilt for breaking up the marriage"-  Define marriage?  Who would be the cause of the failure of the marriage?  Either way you are likely to have these feelings.  The only difference is that not being under the same roof will give an opportunity for some healing, yours and theirs. 

If someone wants their marriage to work and peace/health for children they can seek help.  People show you what is important to them with what they do/don't do.  Mental health resources are ubiquitous in America, it's confidential, non-judgmental, and can even be free.  There's no excuse for not getting help.

Regret/guilt/fear over not leaving is very real too,  2:4  my children (so far) have expressed to me they wished I would have left sooner.  Sadly, it comes down to risk/benefit analysis. 
Things we know:
This isn't about you not being enough, it's not personal, you are not deficient, it's about a disordered person that is out of control.
Based on history, things will remain the same unless something changes.  Newton?
There is hope and healing on the other side, this we know. 

Peace to you as you navigate this difficult situation.

(sorry this ran so long)

[pushit]

I agree very much with the above answers.  I don't have much advice beyond what has been written, but I can share how I felt then and now.

I felt a lot of guilt and fear too, but looking back what was I in fear of?  I feared my exPDw turning the kids and professionals against me, putting the kids in a worse situation with her being the majority time parent and her making decisions for them, if the courts were to believe her allegations of abuse.  I think that's a legitimate fear, but it didn't happen.  She tries, but has been failing badly at it.  I had no fear of what would happen to her, because my empathy for her had grown thin for all the reasons Free2Bme wrote.  At any point my exPDw could have woken up and looked in the mirror, tried to fix things, but she just continued to blame me and the world around us for the results of her own actions.  I couldn't let her drag the kids and I down with her, it was time to make things right for us again, as best as I could.

What should I feel guilty about?  I felt guilt and shame at the beginning, in terms of what everyone might think.  I knew the narrative would be that I walked out and destroyed the family, or was abusive, an uncaring alcoholic, or whatever.  The reality was that I destroyed the facade that our marriage was, and went back to the truth that it wasn't healthy for the kids and I.  Today, I'm sure there are still people out there who despise me and think it's all my fault.  That's pretty much down to her family and a few friends of hers, none of whom I care to speak with anymore.  They are simply flying monkeys and will believe anything she tells them.  At this point in time, I would feel much more guilty had I exposed the kids to any more of that toxic environment than they had already put up with.

As Free2Bme also wrote, it really is a simple risk/benefit analysis.  For a long time my biggest fear was the worst case scenario of the kids being alienated from me and out of my life.  Once I spoke with attorneys and was pretty confident of a 50/50 settlement, my worst case scenario then became dealing with a manipulative ex who tries to paint me as the bad guy all the time.  That shifted the equation and I couldn't file fast enough, because that scenario was far better than the misery we were living in. 

Always remember that you should be taking care of yourself and you deserve to benefit from the marriage too. Marriage is a two way street, it can't survive with only one person putting in the work.  If you can shift that paradigm in your head and start expecting things from your spouse that you would be getting from a healthy spouse, your mindset will completely change and the fear and guilt will fade.