Family Meeting????

[D.]

My sibling w/spouse, my husband, and I have been discussing gathering with my (and sibling) parents to discuss family standards and expectations for gatherings.  For example, we would gather and talk about what each of us wants from a gathering such as to be respected, to be able to share hopes & dreams, for others to listen, to not be interrupted, not berate or insult anyone in the group, etc.  I suspect this might need a third, neutral, party such as a therapist.  In fact, I will be consulting with T this week.  But I am also open to trying on our own first.

The background is that my sibling and I are both survivors of what everyone here discusses and understands, uPD parents and many of the abuses that go with it: witnessing verbal/emotional domestic violence.  Childhood of emotional abuse and neglect.  As adults things improved some, but not enough.  And the emotional domestic violence between parents is current.  It's a little hard to tell w/mom how "ill" she is with a PD or if it's mostly enabling uPDf.  Either way we, the offspring, have decided we're done with stressful family gatherings with our parents. We also have experienced positive gatherings and think there is a possibility that at least our mom could be appropriate for the time of a gathering (a few hours).  In the past uPDf has opted to simply be quiet, which is a fine option from my perspective if he cannot contribute in a positive way. 

Both my sibling and I have been in therapy for a number of years so we have learned what is appropriate.  We see each other at least monthly and enjoy one another's company.  Our relationship has been this way in spite of parental dysfunction for a number of years, but especially the last few years.

I've come to really appreciate the ideas and perspectives from this group.  What does anyone think about this idea?  Pros, cons, tips, dangers, success stories, problems, any idea welcome.

[Andeza]

This is one of those things where we kinda sit back and say we hope it works out well for you, while recalling that a high percentage of such meetings do not end well, or if they do then typically the results are not long-lasting. If it works, that's awesome! If it doesn't, you tried. if it works short term, then all will be well for a while as your uPDf puts on his best behavior until the PD starts running the show again.

The danger is that he'll simply lose it on the spot, deny everything, gaslight, project, roll out the whole flippin' 100 traits... I think you get the image. The risk is, in other words, a full blown PD meltdown. Which is similar to, but much scarier than, a toddle pitching a fit.

If you guys decide to do this, I suggest you have a clear list of items to discuss, behaviors that are 100% not acceptable, and essentially lay down the ground rules. You need not mention the consequences (in fact, I wouldn't at all), but I suggest you write them out for your own benefit so that you both have a game plan if it all goes to heck. Something like if PDf becomes verbally abusive the meeting is over, you all walk out, and there are not necessarily any plans to engage with that sort of behavior again. Each and every episode is abuse. Each instance of abuse requires much energy and mental focus to recover from. And when you are dedicating that much energy to maintaining a relationship with an abusive person it is extremely difficult to find a balance point and not neglect the other very important parts of your own life because the PD takes up so much headspace. Additionally, the elevated stress levels and emotional distress have the potential to come back to haunt you. Many of us have experienced exactly that over the years.

I wish I had a success story to share. I really do. Good luck however you decide to proceed.

[D.]

So well said Andeza.  I really appreciate the honesty.  My gut tells me this is risky, and I have had to simply remove myself in the past.  Once for a year, another time for 6 months.  The thing is we have 4 people who are pretty much Out of the FOG so to speak and 2 people who have uPD of some sort, and I think this feels like the last ditch effort to maintain some level of familial unity.  It either works, or it doesn't.  And, if it doesn't work, we'll know we tried.  And I suspect my sibling's family and mine grow closer.  Just getting to this point we are growing closer.  I don't want to go into much detail because of the public reality of the forum, but we are growing closer.  The honesty with one another has been truly freeing.

And if by some divine intervention it does work then we all benefit and grow closer- I know probably not an option...I guess sometimes we just have to learn by experience...

That said, another thing that I am considering is simply not having contact over the holidays and preparing for a family meeting once we all feel ready and potentially have a mediator/therapist lined up.  I suspect that would be wiser.  A neutral fourth party.

Anyway thank you for listening and your input.  If this happens I want it to happen in the best, safest way possible.  I know what you mean about the tantrum.  Enabling mom has been describing some events that sound like what you describe.  And I worked with mentally disabled adults w/PDs so I've witnessed some dangerous melt downs.  And I already continue to distance myself more and more.  I agree, I am getting sick of the mental energy this takes.  I started participating in this forum to kind of "finish" the process, set up boundaries that work for me and be healthy, or, if needed, cut off contact.  But I am going to reflect more on that idea about mental energy...

We will absolutely have a safety plan which would be physically removing ourselves.

[DetachedAndEngaged]

I can understand your desire to give things one last chance. If you approach it with very low expectations, it might be clarifying.

I echo Andeza's concerns.

My wife tried something like this with her uNPD sister a few years ago and it went very, very badly.

I entirely agree with you that involving a T is essential, and would add that it needs to be a T who has lots of experience dealing with PDs and people recovering from PD abuse. I wouldn't be surprised if such a person recommended against setting up the meeting you have in mind. No matter how good they are, a T without expertise and tons of experience with PDs can get fail to recognize what is going on and get caught up with their BS. PDs tend to be highly skilled at manipulating and fooling well-intentioned outsiders.

I would suggest against using a T who doesn't know the situation well and is "neutral." There's no such thing as neutrality when it comes to abuse--one either perpetuates/enables it or one does not.

I wish you the best with whatever you decide! It sounds like you are on a great path!

Please let us know how it goes with whatever course you decide to pursue.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello

Its risky because (I think) gaslighting in families can be really hard to address in the moment-  in real time.

Mostly gaslighting in my FOO was done so much that it is only after the fact where you look back at the Xmas dinner and realize that x comment and x behaviour was in fact gaslighting. At the time these gestures can appear 'normal' and appropriate... because effective passive aggression gives the appearance that it isn't what it is.

I do hope it works. Would I ever attend such a meeting with ny FOO? No. I would not. They sure would love it though. Some of my FOO members believe they are peacemakers and are very good at emotional manipulation.

A theme on this site is that yes we all have hopes and expectations that we can have family gatherings despite PD parents.

Its interesting you note that sometimes your PDf stays silent during some gatherings. Mine did that too a lot. Never predictably though.

When the PD parent can't meet our basic standards for behaviour, they refuse to believe there is any consequence for 'being themselves'. They cannot see themselves accurately enough to discuss their own behaviours.

I don't know that we lay people can convince a PD to stop gaslighting.

Gaslighting is such a pernicious act, done by someone so totally incapable of self reflection and self correction. What does your T think the options are for you and your siblings when your parents act out towards one of you?

I've had a lifetime of pain from PD parents who manipulated and triangulated me and my siblings into completely broken relations. It is awesome you and your siblings have some good times together. A lot of us don't have that and probably never will. If it were me i would enjoy the non PD friendships with the family members who are in therapy and enjoy those and leave the PDs alone. But that's just my 2 cents.

The anxiety of wondering how my PD mother would retaliate after such a meeting would be enough to remind me that emotional abuse creates high levels of anxiety.  We can't predict their behaviour - and that always causes anxiety.

I am sorry that you are also in this boat. Having PD parents sucks.

Trees

[Hepatica]

Hi C.

i have no advice but some questions that you might want to ask yourself if you go ahead.

1. Is your father's behaviour fixed? Has he ever shown true revelations about the effect of his behaviour and changed permanently for the better?

2. How strong will the therapist be in regards to education around personality disorders? Will he or she be able to recognize signs of toxicity, ie gaslighting and not be caught up in any PD charisma?

3. Is your relationship with your sibling airtight? Could this meeting drive a wedge between the good relationship you are having with your sibling? Is your sibling as educated about personality disorder as you are? (sorry that's 3 questions in one...)

4. Can you video tape it? That way you can review it afterward to pull out any vague and covert toxic behaviours that you don't see in the moment and that might get into your head and create confusion in you or your sibling?

5. Do you feel any gut feelings about this that tell you it might not work? Do you believe that your parents will change?

6. If they can alter their negative behaviours, can you tweak your contact with them in future? Meaning, can they behave for 2 hours but not 4 hours? So you only see them for the 2 hour window and leave before the bad behaviour begins?

7. Are there any 'cross the line" behaviours that your father (or other toxic family members) might engage in that you can set up in your own mind or in writing before the meeting so you will know immediately that the meeting is not working? What will tell you that the meeting is working?

8. What is your best case outcome? Can you live with remaining in contact if it is less than that?

9. Does your father often need to be in control? Will this meeting feel to him like he is being cornered? If so, how will he behave? How will you feel if he behaves badly?

My worry when I read about the meeting is that it might disturb the good relationship with your sibling. I would talk about this with your sibling before hand. Disordered parents really know how to wedge their way between siblings.

[GettingOOTF]

Someone here once said to me that if my family were capable of hearing what I said then they would have by now.

This really changed how I approached any dealings I have with my family.

I think in these cases we have to do what we feel best in the moment. If you feel the meeting so something that will help you move forward, either to heal the relationships or for you to come to terms with the realities of the situation then you should do it.

The thing with family issues is that they run deep - through generations. Very few people ever see their family as “wrong” or needing to change. For a family to change how they relate to members every single person needs to agree on what the problem is and then actually put in the work. This work takes commitment and time. Many of us are in therapy for years working on untangling our family culture and our upbringing.

This is my observation only but the only time I’ve seen people “mend” these relationships is when the abused figures out a way to be around the abuse through boundaries, Grey Rock, Radical Acceptance etc. The behavior remains the same, the abused simply finds a way to live with the abuse.

One of the things I’ve learned since I started working on my own issues is that you cannot change anyone. You have to accept people 100% for who they are. That often means walking away, which is the choice I eventually made.

[Psuedonym]

Hey C!

I understand the desire to give them a chance to change, but as many on here have already said, the chances of that happening are slim to none.

I can give you an example from my own life. After uPD M's last hospitalization for Xanax toxicity I drove her to see her therapist and was invited to sit in. Now granted, this was HER T who she had seen for years and who at this point I considered sort of push over for putting up with her ridiculousness. I had never met the woman before in my life. The T, after listening to some of latest behavior, read M the riot act. Told her she was acting like her own mother (who was obviously NPD and she despised), told her she was acting like a toddler throwing a tantrum on the floor while the 'adults' did all the work. It was something to see and quite cathartic. BUT, here's the important thing, it didn't even make a dent. At one point she asked if we (T&I) had discussed this prior to the appointment and accused us of conspiring against her.  Didn't listen to one word of it, and afterwards she wouldn't have acknowledged it ever happened.

If you think you need to do this for you then you should go ahead and do it, but I would be aware that not only is likely to be ineffective, it can have the opposite effect. If they feele in any way criticized or judged, they may instead try to turn it around and a) turn their rage against you and/or b) start a smear campaign against you. If they are truly disordered people, which it sounds like they are, then they're truly incapable of self reflection. That's a hallmark of the disorder. Here's a great video from the great Les Carter that highlights the 'ground zero' trait of PDs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnSsx8ifAH8

[Hilltop]

It's great that you want to try however I am a firm believer of no, when it comes to this type of family meeting.  I tried something like this with my MIL quite a few years back and it went very very badly.

I did it as a last resort, I thought if I told her how I felt in a neutral way she could respond.  I wanted to do it alone without DH there as I wanted to see how she would respond.  I really thought about what to say beforehand, I was calm, neutral and polite and only referred to myself the entire time, you know I feel etc.  Then I asked her how she felt and if she had any concerns or if I had done something to offend her.  I got nothing in response.

After I left she rang up my DH and told him I had been rude to her and put her down.  She cried to him.  That was what I was after, to see how she would react, would she be honest with me, what would she say to DH. I thought perhaps if I gave her an opening she may actually talk to me but I didn't want her putting on a show for DH and being fake, which is what I had thought she was doing so I went alone.  For me I got the answer I was looking for, there was no hope for the relationship.  She used that talk to drum up drama with DH and most likely her friends.  After that I went NC and have never regretted it.

I would say the better option is to tackle behaviour in the moment.  If he is rude, call him out and if he does it again, leave.  Put in boundaries for yourself.

PD's feed on this type of drama.  Of course they can say anything during the meeting however long term, they are unlikely to change and will no doubt react to the perceived criticisms of them.  Anything I have said to my PD MIL and PDmother has been used for a smear campaign with other family members.  My mother has even gone so far as to embellish the story as the original was too boring.  Healthy people you can talk to PD's its a risk.  If you feel you need to do this, perhaps its something you need to try, however be realistic that it may not change anything and may actually further damage your relationship.

[D.]

Wow.  I am so moved by everyone's responses so far.  Thank you.  All of this is helping me reflect and realize the most important to me at this time is my relationship w/my sibling.  Their family are putting in the work with therapy and great strides of healing over the past few years.  So am I.  I think my sibling hopes to somehow repair w/our mom, but a comment made recently on spending all of the visit w/her listening...not a good sign.  The great thing is sibling and I are just now talking in a new, intimate way that includes joy, laughter and honesty  about many things one of which includes FOO.  I think in part I was considering the idea b/c it comes from my sibling.  However, there is more work to do for this individual around acknowledging the reality w/our parents.  I thing we're both also grieving the person our mother could have been if she didn't experience 50+ years of serious, daily abuse...I have C-PTSD from 20 years (not daily) .  I wonder if that many years causes a cluster B PD...she might have had the PD tendency but it didn't really take hold until the relationship w/my father occurred.  She is so inconsistently appropriate and it all coincides w/whether our father is in the room, nearby, etc.  And I suspect she had a PD mom herself.  I know I am making excuses...And I am prepared to let go, reduce contact, clarify boundaries, etc.  It's just sad.  For all of us.

So I am going to keep reading and re-reading all of these comments plus follow up w/suggestions.  I will gather more info. from therapists.  And I will listen closely to my gut.  I am pretty good at that now.  I will let the group know what we decide and how things go as well.

Again, thank you, peace, love and every other possible positive word that exists.  I am most grateful for the existence of this group.

[Hilltop]

C sounds like you are on the right path.  I realized my response sounded like a no, nope, just no, lol.   I got a lot out of talking to both my MIL and my parents, it just didn't give me the result I wanted, however it did give me closure and a little bit more clarity.

You will have a therapist with you so that will hopefully keep things on track.  Just keep your expectations low and understand that in some ways you are telling them what your triggers are.  With my MIL the behaviour I went to talk to her about only made her increase in that behaviour afterwards and of course a smear campaign.

With my parents they have used things I have said to later down the track have a dig at me.  Its extremely hurtful.  A therapist will likely avoid those pitfalls.

Your gut will tell you what you need to do.  Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[treesgrowslowly]

C.,

Some of us are in the same boat. I too am am aware of abuse my PD parents endured when they were younger and that those traumas went untreated. That damage was done. I wish i could undo it but i can't. I wish they could address it but they can't. That is what a PD is. It is an inability to change and grow including growing up. It is out of reach for them.
Pseudonyms and hilltops  experiences above are instructive to all of us. Reminders that these people cannot respond to us no matter what we do or try.

Knowing what our PD parents went through isn't necessarily making excuses- quite the opposite if we realize that yeah they are living with lots of untreated mental health needs and....their kids cannot heal them. We just can't. We can't change the long running,  intense, and deeply rooted dysfunctions they have.

We dream of an end to the painful dynamic with our parents.

Its probably why a lot of us are doing therapy work well into middle age and beyond here.

All around me all the time are people who can have civil and even affectionate conversations with their own parents and i can't. I never will. My longing for it has changed my life in every way.

Protect your relationship with your sibling. That is the friendship you have been gifted after all your loss and grief.

Trees



I dont think it it maaking accuses

[D.]

Hilltop, trees and everyone,

I understand my responsibility to read through, think about responses and figure out what works for me.  Thank you all for helping w/the process.

I am definitely thinking more now about my desire for clarity and valuing the friendship w/my sibling. 

And the crazy thing is the clarity w/uPD mom will most likely be lack of clarity since she's just so inconsistent, avoidant, and simply won't address anything...so it's the lack of clarity that is starting to make things clear...if that makes any sense.  One moment she'll say how much she understands and wants to change, but then doesn't. 

I hope to be able to stay close w/my sibling, and suspect that I will, but we're just getting close now so I am still figuring out how.

As for my father, I know he is extremely PD and uninterested in changing.  I just need to keep myself safe w/all the tools I'm learning here: grey rock, LC, MC, etc.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi C.,

You said it. Clarity helps us so much.

I wish more was written about the loss of a parent to mental illness. I suspect that the desire for clarity is strong in a lot of us here. I still feel my desire for it even though it has been years since I came to see that the PD parent themselves will never be clear enough themselves to provide me with clarity.

Any meeting I have wished to hold with my PD parents would be some version of me saying "why do you do / say this?" And then hoping they actually know why. Do they know why? Can they give us clarity?

For me a lot of clarity came from being on this site and hearing from people who also had PD parents.

The first year after NC I desperately wanted an explanation because I wanted to feel the sweet relief of closure.

Slowly I did come to see that PDs are psychological conditions and psychological conditions are deeply rooted. They are not fixed through meetings or conversations.

As some have shared here though the meetings can give us one last example of where our PD parent is at mentally and what we need to do for our own life to move along. For me an email from my narcissistic parent confirmed for me one last time that there was no closure that involved them. They blamed me for everything and denied having any disordered thinking. It is heartbreaking to get such an email from one's own parent. The one person who was supposed to be there for us as our parent.

My narcissistic parents will never understand the pain I've been through. They can't. They never will.

I know this now, and it does hurt. Talking to folks here helps. I hope it continues to help you too. In sharing your story here you have helped us to do some of that closure work and gain some of that clarity. This community can be so helpful.

Trees

[qcdlvl]

You've already gotten lots of excellent feedback, but I'd like to add one thing that I think hasn't been addressed much on this thread: It sounds like your F may seem like the more problematic parent, but ultimately your M chose to be his partner, live with him, have children with him and has chosen to stay with him for I'm guessing decades now. They are both very much part of a dysfunctional duo that at some level works for both of them. Even if one of them is the leader, or the more overtly abusive, toxic or dysfunctional partner, the other is at a minimum an enabler. It's a dance they're both choosing to participate in, even if one of them leads the dance. So it might be very difficult to separately have an OK relationship with your mother if your father is not on board at some level, and conversely if you have a relationship with your mother it's probably best to assume she will relay back information to him, advocate for him (overtly or covertly), etc. I'm not saying you shouldn't try, just that you should not ignore or minimize that they're a team.

[D.]

Great point.  Thank you for that reminder about the "team" reality.  Wow, these pairs of PD parent teams all are so similar in the ways that can hurt us.  You reminded me that when I told mom I would see her, but only without dad she stopped trying to see me so much (inconsistent of course).  Or she would forget that request and involve him.  Or when we talk on the telephone she tries to tell me about my "poor father"...when a month ago we were discussing his abuse of ME...

I am so grateful for the skillful therapists that I see.  My T basically said what everyone here has said about the dangers and the challenge of involving people who aren't invested in the "meeting" (parents).  I decided to talk w/my sibling about having an initial mtg w/just us and our spouses so I can explain my perspective and ideas for how to interact w/parents when or/if that happens.

T also commented that a one time meeting to get to a solution for family gatherings is not realistic.  She does family therapy and saw the meeting as more the beginning of multiple sessions, recognizing parents might not be willing to go forward.

The thing is that I have noticed both our parents really want to be around us and sometimes will do a requested activity to avoid the consequence of not being around us.  However, if that is the only motivation for them, long term behavioral change is unrealistic.  Once they get the reward, our presence, and the "consequence" of therapy is out of the picture, the behaviors will return.  I am getting that now.  Seeing a lifetime of the pattern.

I know that the reason I am putting so much energy into this topic is to bring closure, for me, of the reality w/these people and the way in which I can relate to them.  There is an internal peace that I am beginning to feel with regards to my parents in present time.  It's an acceptance without anger, fear, guilt, shame, obligation.  Just an acceptance with our reality.  And cautious hope for the relationship with my sibling.  And knowing others here understand.

I will keep the group posted of our decisions and steps along the way on this topic.

I hope that now and in the future all this thread will continue to assist us all along the way...

[D.]

Someone mentioned to keep the group posted about what is decided and/or how things go.  So, decided to meet w/siblings & spouses (no PDs).  That will probably happen soon, and I look forward to it.  Later sibling/spouse might decide to meet w/our parents. 

As for me, between this group, my 10+ years of therapy, internal work, etc. I don't want to participate initially, or maybe ever.  I will love my parents w/all the boundaries and tools that I need to stay as safe, healthy and happy as possible.  I just don't want to give it much more energy if that makes any sense.  It kind of feels like when I needed to divorce exNPDh.  I'm just done trying.  I've done way more than enough.  If a PD parent ever approached me w/a serious apology and interest in "recovery" for themselves I would consider it.  That's my boundary at this time.  And since that isn't happening I am perfectly content to focus on relationships that work, my own wellness physical/emotional/spiritual being, and making the world a better place now through my own actions and service w/those around me.  That's where I can put my love to work.

[treesgrowslowly]

It does make sense C. A lot of sense.

I think this thread will help a lot of other people too.

When we think about how much reflection goes into our own growth and change...do we really see our PD parents doing that kind of committed work?

I was thinking about how much work it has taken for me to address my FOG and I cannot for one second imagine my dysfunctional family members putting in this time and effort.

I think that there are feelings of FOG folded into the grieving we have to do when our parents are lost to us due to PD dysfunction.

Society doesn't understand this at all yet. I see news stories about people talking about losing a parent to dementia but I still have not seen actual, normalizing, news coverage of the loss we face - is it because PDs are so much harder for people to learn about compared to dementia / Alzheimer's? I don't know. All I know is that this forum community understands PD family dynamics a lot more than any other place. Glad you've shared your question and process with us. There is hope after the FOG lifts.

Trees

[D.]

I just wanted to let the group know that sibling, myself, and spouses had a great meeting today. 

The purpose was to discuss how to strengthen and unite our family, starting with our own relationship, building on it.  As for our parents we decided to come up w/a game plan for us as a sibling group that  holds parents accountable for appropriate behavior.  So the next time that we gather w/parents present we will use our planned responses, see how it goes, and decide when/if we will gather as a full group again.  Our small group is also getting interested in educating ourselves about PD and how to respond appropriately.  Starting w/boundaries and how to respond to verbally aggressive behavior if one of our parents is innappropriate at the moment it begins.  I have a good feeling about this...like it's the beginning of some positive change for full family gatherings, whether they continue or stop.  We continue to heal, learn, and get clarity now as a group.  It's powerful.  We felt hopeful as a group and said so.

I know that a lot of people in this forum don't have this option of creating a healthy sub group w/FOO, so I just want to say I understand that's the case.
However, the support and information in this group has been an essential part of this particular process that started our as a family meeting and has turned into a successful family meeting, just with different people than was initially considered.

[DetachedAndEngaged]

Thanks for the update.

That sounds great!

I'm so glad this is bringing you in closer solidarity with people who are united with you.