The uninvited guest

[Pepin]

I am disappointed that PDmil will be joining us as our only guest for Thanksgiving despite being offered an invite elsewhere that she declined.  Therefore, DH feels that it would be unkind for PDmil to be alone and should be with us.

I haven't seen PDmil since very early this year and neither have our teens.  DH has visited her numerous times on his own to check off items from her To Do List. 

There doesn't appear to be a way out of this unless she changes her mind since our area is about to embark on a 2 week COVID lockdown.  People have been rearranging their plans and choosing to celebrate within their immediate households only....or using video conferencing....or celebrating outdoors.  It is too cold to be outside for us and her. 

I hope I have the strength to get through this.  I am taking solace in the sad fact that PDmil is someone that is shuffled around and what a shame that is to be in that position.  No one graciously extends her invites.  She is not welcomed with enthusiasm....she is merely a seat filler at the table....another mouth to feed.....that adds little or nothing to conversation or celebration.  She's just there.  Making small talk with DH in their native tongue - because that is her strongest card to play. 

Our house will be decorated, the menu is planned and will be thoughtfully prepared and served.  It will be another holiday for the books that was bland and not worth remembering along with all the other ones she has joined us in. 

I won't be having any alcohol so as to remain sharp and to keep my boundaries strong.  I'll drink when DH drives her home.  What a wretched existence for her, you know -- that I have to come here and write about her.  It is really sad.  My husband is powerless....fed by cultural loyalty and guilt for her - and likely will remain ensnared until she passes. 

[SunnyMeadow]

It's too bad she declined the other invitation. It's so difficult to have these PD parents when celebrating a holiday. They make the day all about them and put a real damper on the whole day.

The whole thing is sad but always keep in mind she caused this outcome. Sometimes I feel sad too that my mom has run off and dumped everyone from her side and my stepdad's side. But both of them caused it, so now they have no one who invites them to anything.

When the sadness creeps in I think of the three C's. It helps put it in perspective for me. It's all their doing. If they were gracious and nice people, they'd have tons of people extending invitations.

I'm sorry your Thanksgiving has to be ruined because of her.

[bloomie]

Pepin - I have never been NC with my own suspected PD mil, though I am vLC and I think she only notices I am not around when she has some sort of crises or errand she needs me to help with or is extending her plate for me to clear from the table.

She has sat in the midst of almost every single holiday we have hosted - and that is a lot of holidays for decades. She is always treated with utmost courtesy and respect. Fed, watered, and then taken home.

Her contribution is the gift of her presence and usually some sort of regifted holiday food item from her insurance agent she wants to off load.  

I see it as part of my life package, though I could absolutely choose to not include her, as I have a few other extended family members, as that is my right in my own home.

Even though my own DH is no longer enmeshed, this is just what we do because even though she could probably choose to be somewhere else she chooses to be with us and honestly, why wouldn't she? Our home is filled with love and great food and laughter and joy and people that care about her even though she makes it really hard.

I understand the sadness when seeing the state of her relationships, but in my own case, I don't think my mil notices how others are experiencing her. Her focus is simply always and only herself and by extension her two adult children.

I have no great words that will make this different for you, but I wish you peace in the midst of it. It is hard.

[Pepin]

It's too bad she declined the other invitation. It's so difficult to have these PD parents when celebrating a holiday. They make the day all about them and put a real damper on the whole day.

The whole thing is sad but always keep in mind she caused this outcome. Sometimes I feel sad too that my mom has run off and dumped everyone from her side and my stepdad's side. But both of them caused it, so now they have no one who invites them to anything.

When the sadness creeps in I think of the three C's. It helps put it in perspective for me. It's all their doing. If they were gracious and nice people, they'd have tons of people extending invitations.

I'm sorry your Thanksgiving has to be ruined because of her.

Thank you for your words.  I just keep hoping that one of these years that holidays will get to be celebrated on our terms.  DH and I have never been able to ask each other: what should we do?  It is as if we don't matter as our own personal family unit. 

Fed, watered, and then taken home.
 
I see it as part of my life package, though I could absolutely choose to not include her, as I have a few other extended family members, as that is my right in my own home.

I understand the sadness when seeing the state of her relationships, but in my own case, I don't think my mil notices how others are experiencing her. Her focus is simply always and only herself and by extension her two adult children.

You are so right, Bloomie.  There are certain members of the family that are not allowed in our home because DH and I both agree. 

And yes, PDmil sees DH as an extension of herself and possibly an even better extension of herself.  She sees in DH what she wanted in a partner but couldn't have.  I don't think that PDmil was very nice to FIL when he was alive; she wanted him to be something that he was not.  While he was grateful for her in some respects, it was clear that he did set boundaries when pushed to his limit....and when he did that though, he was considered mean.  A person can only tolerate so much.

Sadly, sometimes I feel that because other parts of my life are good, that having PDmil be a part of it is par for the course.  It does make me appreciate what I have and t does make me work harder and protect what I have.  But beneath all of that I am drained.  I am exhausted.  And I am really struggling to keep my head above water.  An it is so hard for me to accept that DH just isn't in my court the way I want him to be because he just cannot either see or admit the dysfunction. 

[Pepin]

If anyone has any useful ground rules that I can ask of DH for the several hours that I will have to endure....please share. 

[Medowynd]

Since PDMIL is picked up by your husband, I would keep the visit to about two hours or less.  PDMIL arrives shortly before dinner and is sent home as soon as dessert is served.  I wouldn't allow her to dominate the rest of the holiday in any way.  I am guessing that there will be two conversations at your dinner.  One conversation between your husband and PDMIL and a conversation between you and your daughters.  I would look at a couple of topics that you can discuss at dinner and as much as possible, ignore MIL and your husband. 

In the past, when I have been forced into situations where I had no control, I made no effort to make the offenders feel comfortable.  They may force me to be there, but they wouldn't get any cooperation from me.  Thankfully, those people are in my past.

[Jolie40]

let husband & mil talk (seat them together) and you can sit next to your teens & talk with them
-just read above poster said same

ask your husband to keep her engaged in conversation
when meal over, they move to another room until he takes her home
if you have photos/photo albums, husband can show her/keep her entertained
teens can step in here, too and talk about school & activities



also, place a big flower centerpiece in middle of table & you won't have to see her while eating
enjoy your delicious meal & if or when you feel stressed, escape to the kitchen

[Thru the Rain]

also, place a big flower centerpiece in middle of table & you won't have to see her while eating
enjoy your delicious meal & if or when you feel stressed, escape to the kitchen

I LOVE the big centerpiece idea! Instead of seeing an unwanted guest, you'll see a beautiful arrangement.

[Pepin]

Thanks for the suggestions.  Yes, the visit will be short.  I will set PDmil next to DH even though it bothers the snot out of me in my own home.  I will have a few questions to ask to her so that I can get the interactive part done and then will turn my attention to my children.  DH can chat with PDmil.

I don't want her in my kitchen and will ask that DH seat her in the living room with the TV going.

One other thing though....PDmil has a habit of interrupting while I am speaking.  She interrupts by speaking in her language and starts a new conversation with DH and then I am forced to stop.  How do I address this?  It seems incredibly difficult to tell an 80 year old: excuse me, I am speaking!  I am not sure if DH would approve of my reprimanding his mother...and it is sad that she has to play such a ridiculous card.

I like the big centerpiece idea but I am certain DH would lift it off the table and replace it with a serving platter of some sort...ugh.

[Andeza]

Can you channel your inner Tony Stark and just keep your thought going and steamroll her? I know it's not polite, but neither is her insistence to exclude you and your children by speaking her own language. It is your Dh's job to stand up for you, and if he isn't doing that, then you'll have to do it for yourself. A kindly spoken, though firm, reprimand is BEYOND warranted in my opinion. It is rude to interrupt someone, doubly so in their own house when you have imposed your way into their holiday. It sounds as though everybody is terrified of insulting this 80 year old woman, but if she hasn't figured out how to deal with disappointment or frustration or even simply social norms by now, I say tough cookies to her. Nobody ought to be babying an 80 year old.

I don't suppose you can get away with seating her and your DH at the kid's table? Probably not, but maybe you'll get a kick and a giggle out of the thought. I'll second the absurdly LARGE centerpiece. Something that makes you happy, and make it darn well clear to your DH that he's not to move it or there will be hell to pay.

[Hilltop]

Pepin have the holiday you want to.  Yes your MIL has to come but don't let her change the plans you want.  Make sure you have the decorations you want, the music, the food all of it how you want it.  Yes sit her next to your DH so she can talk to him but don't cater to her apart from a breezy "How are you" when she arrives and then leave her be. 

My MIL also talks in her native tongue, she can speak English but chooses not to.  I see it in two ways, I see that it is more natural for her to talk in her native tongue and it takes the burden off of me to try to communicate with her.  So I choose not to be offended and see it in a positive way for ME.  Yes it use to really bother me, I would feel so insulted but then I realized that it was better for me not knowing what nonsense she was saying.  It was a shield between us which meant I was protected from her, I didn't have to talk to her.   Really I ended up seeing it as a gift for me.  Who cares if she is trying to create a divide by speaking in another language, that is more a reflection of her and her heart, who does that, goes to someone else's house and speak in another language, its rude and juvenile.  Let that reflect on her. 

My MIL also does the same thing, if I am talking she will start to talk over the top of me, she will do it as I am talking.  Or if there is a break in the conversation I will talk to DH and then she will continue talking,  oops I didn't know she was on a monologue again.  DH once said to me that I had completely changed the conversation and I laughed and said to him "You do realize I don't know what is being said, there was a break, I had something to say, you can speak English and then I'll know what is happening otherwise I don't care".  That's the thing of how ridiculous it is, you are expected to sit there quietly and it is so stupid.  I ended up thinking stuff it.  I now speak up and talk and I don't care.  If MIL talks over the top of me I continue talking and finish what I was going to say and sometimes I have seen DH turn his head left and right not knowing who to listen to.

So if your MIL talks over the top of you, just keep talking, engage your girls and keep the conversation going.  If MIL then takes DH and talks amongst themselves so be it, ignore it.  Don't sit there quietly letting them talk and the rest of you listening to nothing.  You talk, you enjoy yourself, you laugh, have some wine or alcohol and enjoy yourself.  At the end of the day it will be your DH that will have missed out on hearing all about what is happening in your girls lives.  So be it.

I wouldn't centre anything around MIL.  If she chooses to speak in another language then hosting her for you is not your problem, it will have to be DH to cater to her the entire day.  See something that should be insulting can be a gift in disguise.  Let your DH know he will have to take care of her food and drinks as its easier for her to speak to him.  If she comes in the kitchen scoot her out and call DH over to get her out.  Call DH over to deal with it rather than talking directly to her,  see she might not understand you and all, best avoid it and let DH handle it. I would engage with your girls and not make them engage with her, if they want to fine but otherwise don't go out of your way with her.  I say that because she is trying to make you uncomfortable in your own house by speaking in another language so let her isolate herself.  If she speaks in English let her join in however if she chooses not to, then take it she has chosen to self isolate and leave her in peace.  I mean nothing screams leave me alone louder than not even bothering to converse in the common language of the group but let that reflect on her, not you.

I take alcohol to my in-laws for new years now and I drink and enjoy it.  I don't care about being sharp.  With alcohol if something happens I seem to laugh at it, I find I enjoy myself more.  I am more relaxed and rather than keeping quiet when MIL talks over me I just keep talking and finish my conversation.  Last time MIL had to pretend she was actually talking to FIL.  It does work and it's amusing to watch.  She is the rude one, not you.

So bring MIL over, feed her and then after dessert take her home. In the meantime, stop trying to impress her or talk to her.  Its on DH to do that.  See her native tongue as your way out.  If DH says anything just say that she is more comfortable speaking it and since you don't understand it falls on him.  How can he possibly argue with that.  Let her nastiness work to your advantage, it gives you an out with her, take it.  Trust me watching you have fun with your girls will be way more irritating to her than you trying to go out of your way to include her.  She is an adult, she can include herself, remember that. 

[Pepin]

So bring MIL over, feed her and then after dessert take her home. In the meantime, stop trying to impress her or talk to her.  Its on DH to do that.  See her native tongue as your way out.  If DH says anything just say that she is more comfortable speaking it and since you don't understand it falls on him.  How can he possibly argue with that.  Let her nastiness work to your advantage, it gives you an out with her, take it.  Trust me watching you have fun with your girls will be way more irritating to her than you trying to go out of your way to include her.  She is an adult, she can include herself, remember that.

Yes...I agree with everything you wrote.  It is completely juvenile behavior and I think she enjoys basking in that because it gets her attention.

Where I stumble however is when DH gets upset that we are not engaging with his mother enough.  He thinks that even though she won't speak English and initiate conversations, that we have to instead make the effort to communicate with her.  He feels that we are ignoring her when we talk amongst ourselves but it is ok for him and her to talk amongst themselves because it is easier for her to understand.  Uh.  PDmil has been in the US since the 60s so I'm not going to believe that she can no longer speak English.  Garbage.  It is a game.  But, whatever.  she can continue to play her dumb games.  It is DH who doesn't see it because he is both embarrassed by her behavior nor does he have the strength to call her out on it - plus, he probably enjoys her attention as he is the GC anyway.  There have only been a few times when I have engaged in conversation with her and she looks to him confused and he fires back at her to answer me.  Dumb games.  She clearly doesn't want to have any conversations with anyone other than DH.

[Hilltop]

Oh Pepin yes I have been there too.  My MIL has done that as well and still does it.  She will look at DH and pretend to not know what I said, so then he has to translate however when FIL was in hospital she understood everything the doctors were saying, interesting isn't it, she can understand medical terminology but not basic English.  We know it's a game and you know what, I simply decided to not play anymore.  Yes DH brought it up a few times but I simply spoke the truth.

I told him "Its too hard when she simply doesn't understand me, its ok I think she is more comfortable not having to speak English".  "Its ok she can speak to you, it's easier for her, lets not stress her out by trying to force something that doesn't work". 

I constantly put it back on her and stated that it was too hard to converse and that is ok, I didn't want to stress her, lets make life more comfortable for her.  Look does it matter what Dh says?  Does it really?  The thing I found really interesting is that it wasn't DH's voice.  He would say these things after he had visited with her perhaps to see what I was thinking and then go back to her to report.  So I just stopped and dumbed down my responses and made it all about being for her benefit and what could DH say.  He couldn't force me to interact.  I wasn't rude, I just removed myself. MIL is free to converse with me in English and I respond to her when she does, however I don't initiate with her.

I did once make DH translate every single thing she said.  If he didn't do it I would ask him "Oh what was that".  For the entire one hour conversation I made him translate everything and it drove him crazy.  I think that may have helped to make him understand how absurd it was however I wouldn't ruin Thanksgiving by doing that.  DH and MIL can't play this game unless you join in.  You really don't have to join in and you aren't being rude.  Tell DH that if MIL wants to join your conversations at any point she can, it really is that simple.  These MIL's don't really have any power over you, unless you give it.  So enjoy your Thanksgiving, if MIL and DH are talking amongst themselves you don't need to sit quietly in the corner, you can make your own conversation, this is their problem not yours.

DH's emotions are his to deal with, if he is upset then he can deal with that.  You can't make MIL speak English, you can't talk to her if she doesn't understand you, you can smile and be welcoming and that's it.  DH will have to do the rest.  Lets face it your MIL is not initiating conversation with you so take that as a sign she is content to come and just be part of the day without participating.  She is an adult, she can join in at any point and she doesn't, why force this on her, why drag her into conversations she obviously doesn't want to have.  Just leave her be, make sure she is comfortable and then leave her be.  If DH is upset simply shrug and tell him its too hard.  I ran around playing those games for years and the best thing I ever did was stop playing.  MIL really only wants DH and that's it.  She was never interested in me and I think your MIL is the same.  So why push it.

Your DH may surprise you, if he sees you having fun he may just try to join in throughout the day.  DH may feel burdened with having to entertain MIL all day however that is his and his mothers problem, not yours.  That's the hole they dug themselves into, don't fall in there with them.

[Leonor]

Sneeze in her turkey.

[Hilltop]

Hilarious Leonor, I had a laugh at that.

Pepin let us know how you go.  I hope Thanksgiving is ok for you.

[Pepin]

I finally had a moment to sit and write.  Thanksgiving went smoothly and ended up being fairly neutral.  About 3.5 hours total.  The teens and I talked beforehand and made sure we were all on the same page about PDmil and DH.  This meant that we would be as neutral as possible-- no emotion of any kind - kind of like dealing with a cashier. 

I didn't want PDmil in the kitchen but that is where she sat while DH and I worked together to get the meal made.  Actually, I asked for his help only to break the silence.  He did have to attend to her and the mail she brought over and a few other things....and it didn't bother me.

At dinner I sat her next to him.  We mostly just focused on the food and ate.  Dessert followed soon after and then it was time for PDmil to go home because DH doesn't like driving in the dark over to her place. 

It was generally a "flavorless" experience.  The food was good though. 

The next day was much better when we had leftovers without her.

[Hilltop]

I'm glad that nothing happened to upset you and that the food was good.   

[spha6092]

It's really good to hear how you dealt with this as a glimpse of the future - assuming uPDmil will have to come to a future event, which she may not. We're running away this Christmas and see how we go after this.

I guess I wanted to comment about the language issue you've raised. It's interesting because in my case, it's my family that have another language in addition to English. Sometimes I'll talk to my uPD dad in our language so that I can contain him and not let him get to my DH. Especially if he is being inappropriate or overly-critical (which is typical). Or boring, haha. DH doesn't understand but can tell I'm irritated by my face and the way I'm talking. Sometimes I'll give him a quick summary later or vent a little, and he knows it's way better to not get too involved. I do this as part of my boundary setting and have since we first met. But more and more it's all in English which is annoying as both of us then become subject to his rants rather than just me, and DH tries to get a word in but can't. DH can't stand up to his covert mother let alone my overt dad who is quick to anger.

Just saying it can take the burden off you to not understand too  I wish I had a language barrier with my mil, haha. Though the last few years she's started claiming she has another cultural background because of an ancestor and talks about wanting to learn the language now that she has a new identity

[Pepin]

I guess I wanted to comment about the language issue you've raised. It's interesting because in my case, it's my family that have another language in addition to English. Sometimes I'll talk to my uPD dad in our language so that I can contain him and not let him get to my DH. Especially if he is being inappropriate or overly-critical (which is typical). Or boring, haha. DH doesn't understand but can tell I'm irritated by my face and the way I'm talking. Sometimes I'll give him a quick summary later or vent a little, and he knows it's way better to not get too involved. I do this as part of my boundary setting and have since we first met. But more and more it's all in English which is annoying as both of us then become subject to his rants rather than just me, and DH tries to get a word in but can't. DH can't stand up to his covert mother let alone my overt dad who is quick to anger.

Just saying it can take the burden off you to not understand too  I wish I had a language barrier with my mil, haha. Though the last few years she's started claiming she has another cultural background because of an ancestor and talks about wanting to learn the language now that she has a new identity

For me, I think that everyone speaking the same language provides inclusivity regardless of what is being said or how.  My DH doesn't always translate and of course PDmil would NEVER translate.  I honestly think she likes being able to have DH to herself by not speaking English in front of me.  She's been in this country since the 60s so I'm kind of not understanding how at this point she is not fluent.  I really don't get it - and considering her employment.  Therefore I chalk it up to a game.  DH is by no means fluent either....there are words he doesn't know and he considers his proficiency to be less than a high school vocabulary.  He says he doesn't want to lose his language but aside from PDmil, there literally will be no one else to speak with on any sort of basis after she is gone.  PDMil's sister was operating in the same manner but after becoming a widow, upped her English proficiency because she wanted to be included in every day life and stand up for herself.  She says it has been so much better by improving her English.  I really admire her initiative.  Her situation is different though....she doesn't have adult children who live close enough to attend to her every whim the way DH does with PDmil.  *sigh*

As my children grow into adults I have encouraged them to only have relationships with those who speak English as their first language or a second language that my children are fluent in.  And I think they understand this because they also feel left out by PDmil and DH.  I don't want our children to go through what I am going through as it is so unecessary.  The blending of cultures can be very hard and if I were to do it again through marriage, I would not.

[spha6092]

For me, I think that everyone speaking the same language provides inclusivity regardless of what is being said or how.  My DH doesn't always translate and of course PDmil would NEVER translate.  I honestly think she likes being able to have DH to herself by not speaking English in front of me.  She's been in this country since the 60s so I'm kind of not understanding how at this point she is not fluent.  I really don't get it - and considering her employment.  Therefore I chalk it up to a game.  DH is by no means fluent either....there are words he doesn't know and he considers his proficiency to be less than a high school vocabulary.  He says he doesn't want to lose his language but aside from PDmil, there literally will be no one else to speak with on any sort of basis after she is gone.  PDMil's sister was operating in the same manner but after becoming a widow, upped her English proficiency because she wanted to be included in every day life and stand up for herself.  She says it has been so much better by improving her English.  I really admire her initiative.  Her situation is different though....she doesn't have adult children who live close enough to attend to her every whim the way DH does with PDmil.  *sigh*

As my children grow into adults I have encouraged them to only have relationships with those who speak English as their first language or a second language that my children are fluent in.  And I think they understand this because they also feel left out by PDmil and DH.  I don't want our children to go through what I am going through as it is so unecessary.  The blending of cultures can be very hard and if I were to do it again through marriage, I would not.

Thanks for sharing your experience, best wishes