My Little Spy

[Kat54]

I'm not super upset but this again reminds me my kids still live with their father...even though they are young adults, and I keep hoping they move out soon.  I was talking to my daughter about a possible upcoming kitchen renovation for my new house. Its a galley kitchen so I'm not looking to really change a layout, though I could.

She says to me, "dad thinks you should take down that wall to open the place up a bit."  I looked at her and asked how would he know he's never seen the place. She confessed she showed him pictures she took. She's been there twice and she took pictures and showed him.  Not a huge deal but, he was so controlling, and manipulative.  I'm sure she did it, and not under his direction, but you can never be sure.

Not sure what to think about this. I'm always super innocent and think the best of people, even my ex.  Though he's the only person that does make me feel paranoid.   Its not malicious but she seems to report back to him a lot as there were a couple instances of her saying she had told her father.

[GettingOOTF]

I’m sorry this is happening. Your daughter is an adult and she has some understanding of the situation between you and your ex. This is inappropriate behavior on her part and it would be reasonable of you to raise this issue with her.

I get that my situation is different as I am dealing with siblings and even though I’m also dealing with a parent I’m much older than your daughter. My family do exactly this - report back to my abusive ex.

This is also something that FOGgy me would have done. Those of us raised in the chaos and drama of a PD home carry these behaviors into adulthood.

It’s obviously up to you but this is a boundary I would set with her. I set the same boundary with my family. Your daughter is old enough that she should be made aware of how her actions impact others.

I agree that it’s likely not malicious in the true sense of the word, but she is facilitating your exes continued abuse and control of you. On some level she is aware of this and she is choosing to participate.

I am years out from my divorce and still dealing with attempted abuse and control from my ex because of my family’s continued involvement. My ex will never ever leave me alone. You are still fairly early in the process so it seems relatively harmless. I can tell you it wears you down. You start to dread certain times of the year or interactions with others. Last week I cried with despair and frustration because my ex simply will not stop finding ways to contact me. It’s like whack a mole. The fact that it’s my very own family helping him with this makes it that much more hurtful and hopeless.

[Associate of Daniel]

I agree with Getting Out of the FOG.  Your daughter's behaviour, although not done with any ill intent, is inappropriate. 

I recommend having a quiet word with her.

Perhaps you could ask if she'd be comfortable with people sending photographs of her personal/private space to someone she doesn't get along with.  That might be all that is required.

AOD

[Kat54]

I know she didn't mean anything by it but yes I will mention to her not to talk about my house or show her father anything.

[athene1399]

I think it's okay to talk to her about your boundaries and what you would like to keep private from your ex.

We had something kind of similar where SD must have been talking to BM about what SO and I have been up to, because out of the blue BM texted SO. She was ranting about being screwed out of money 8 years ago and then added a sarcastic "I am glad your life is so perfect ". Like I am sure SD was sharing stuff with her innocently, not thinking that BM could weaponize it or make us uncomfortable with it. I think sometimes they don't consider the possibility so it is important to go over your boundaries with the kids so they don't accidentally over share with the PD ex.

[Stillirise]

I've been following this thread, and don't want to hijack, but how do you all recommend handling these boundaries with younger kids? I know stbx regularly asks DS11 and DD9 about what they are doing at my house, where we've been, what I'm up to, if I'm working from home, who is over, etc.  He makes it sound like he's involved and communicating, but he's really just snooping. I don't want them to feel like they are hiding things from him, but he almost always works his little nuggets of intel into rants down the road.

I can totally see this continuing and even escalating as they get older.  Kat54, I'm guessing your DD is so conditioned to her dad's game of 20 questions by now, that she tries to be prepared in advance. Even if she doesn't realize it.  I notice how frustrated my kids get when they get the questions, and don't have answers on the ready for him. He then badgers, "What do you mean you don't know? Weren't you there?!" Etc...

Ugh...why does all of this have to be so icky?!

[pushit]

Stillirise - I deal with a lot of this too, with younger kids.  In my situation it comes across more as criticism from my oldest (D10) about how I'm supposed to parent them.  It's obvious that my exPDw fills D10's head with criticisms about me, and then sends her over here as a messenger to try and control us during my time.  The way I handle it is to draw a clear boundary between my house and Mom's house.  I've reinforced that Mom doesn't tell us what to do over here, I'm the adult and I will decide.  And on the flipside, the kids clearly know that I don't tell them what to do when they're at Mom's house. 

Remember that just because someone has a PD doesn't mean all their ideas are bad.  Most of the "direction" that comes from my exPDw through D10 is nonsensical, but every once in awhile there is a good idea in there.  I do my best to disengage from the battle my ex is trying to suck me into and remember D10 is an innocent pawn in this game.  The best I can do is try to remove D10 from the middle of it, and show her how to be the bigger person.  So, I'm open to listening to some of this, I consider the good ideas, and explain why I see things differently on all the bad advice.  It's worked really well for me.  Nowadays I get less criticism and "advice" from the kids, and I get more questions about why Mom did this or that.  My response to that is "I don't know, you'd need to ask Mom why".  I just let it go, and let exPDw be responsible for her side of the street.

A lot of it comes down to the realization that the PD is continuing their façade that they're the better parent, better human, whatever.  They aren't able to just be a good person and be confident in their own actions, so they keep trying to convince everyone they have their act together by tearing you down.  It's not really about you, it's about their need to act this way to soothe themselves.  Don't worry about it and just do as you best see fit.  My relationship with my kids is much better after divorce, and allowing them to see that I'm open minded, I'm not perfect, and I'm open to suggestions has made it better.  But they also see that even though I'm open minded I don't allow their Mom to control us during my parenting time.  Keep the focus on the kids and their development, and let the PD act how they want.  The end goal is turning kids into healthy adults, unfortunately we don't have a healthy partner to help us do that so we have to model it ourselves.

Kat54 - What if you responded to your daughter with "hmmm....that's an interesting suggestion to remove that wall, I'll think about it".  It's not necessarily a bad idea, but it doesn't mean that you have to do it.  Consider it, and then make your own decision and if she asks explain why.  Even if the explanation is just "because that's what I wanted to do".  That shows your daughter that you're open to suggestions but still your own person.

I would also recommend to stop caring about whether or not they've seen the inside of your house.  My exPDw has many ways she could mess with me.  She still has my SSN, financial records, connection to my employer, contact with my kids' teachers, etc.  She's tried to mess with me financially a couple times, and my response was to get the authorities involved to stop it.  So, her seeing the inside of my house is small potatoes in comparison.  The kids regularly FaceTime with her at my house, so she's seen the inside and the layout.  She's made plenty of suggestions on how I should do things differently - I simply tell the kids "that's interesting but this is my house and I'll do what I want".  I also gave them control over their rooms, the layout, the furniture, the paint color, etc.  That's their space and no one (including me) is allowed to control their decisions.  I did that to model to them that they can set boundaries around their own decisions and not be controlled by others, and then I set a boundary around my house and don't let others control how I want it to be.

[Penny Lane]

We see the EXACT same thing and it's so frustrating! I haven't found a good solution.

I think it's totally reasonable for Kat to ask her adult children to not mention private things to their dad. Unfortunately I don't really think you can ask minors to do that. It's not fair to them, and worse, it sets up the attitude that it's OK to keep secrets from the other parent.

Our attitude to the kids is always "you are welcome to tell your mom whatever you want, but if there's something she needs to know about what's going on over here, your dad will always tell her." So they don't feel like they HAVE to pass messages. And if THEY don't want to share something with her, they have our blessing to not mention it.

We don't tell the kids anything we really wouldn't want their mom to know, especially when things are already tense between DH and her. There used to be a pretty long list of things we just wouldn't mention to them (anything money related, anything medical for example). As time has gone on and things have cooled down a bit, we're a little more forthcoming with them. Like, even if she does know that I had surgery, what is she going to do with that information? In the past she's demanded details from DH, but we've come to a place where that doesn't bother us anymore, and she's learned that she won't get an answer to an inappropriate question so she mostly has stopped asking. I'd say overall things get better over time in that arena.

The more troubling part of this is that as she's interrogating the kids to try to find stuff to use against us, she also heavily discourages them from telling us stuff about her house. I think in part this is because DH used to ask her about the really egregious things that happened at her house. So instead of, say, not leaving the kids alone all day, she just pressures them to hide it from us. Learn from our mistakes! No good comes from asking the PD about the egregious problems the kids tell you about. I think the most frustrating part is that she has convinced the kids that WE are the ones interrogating them. So if we dare even ask "how are you doing" or "what have you been up to" at exchanges we sometimes get a hostile response. I'm hoping that a new era of never repeating anything the kids say to BM will lessen that pressure on them.

Anyway, there's no silver bullet, the PD is always going to do this. It will probably get better over time as his attention shifts elsewhere. And as the kids get older and more settled into the divorce, they might push back more and tell them they don't want to answer his questions. I suspect that's happening with my stepkids though it's hard to really know. Or maybe not. We recently learned that they had told her a couple things recently about our lives that I would have said she would immediately fire off an angry email, but she never did. So maybe they're telling her and she just can't really do anything with the information.

And along the lines of what pushit says, at some point we did sit down and think about, no we don't want our personal stalker and emotional terrorist to have information about us. Especially personal information that is sensitive to us. However, we seriously thought about, what can she do with this information? She can try to harass us, but she does that anyway with no basis. She can ... tell other people? Who probably don't care nearly as much as she does? And she can use it to craft insane narratives (like, we're doing necessary home maintenance = we have way more money than DH has let on, totally untrue) but again, she does that anyway with no basis at all. So a lot of it was just letting go, I hate so much that she knows stuff about us but at the end of the day our lives don't change all that much whether or not she knows them. And like I said, DH stopped giving her the reaction that she wants so she mostly doesn't even mention stuff anymore - if she's not getting the satisfaction of seeing it get under his skin, she doesn't want to spend the energy talking to him. That doesn't really take away the sting of a person who's inclined to stalk you having more information about you. But there is some security in remembering that you don't have to give them the power to get under your skin about it.

[pushit]

I think it's totally reasonable for Kat to ask her adult children to not mention private things to their dad. Unfortunately I don't really think you can ask minors to do that. It's not fair to them, and worse, it sets up the attitude that it's OK to keep secrets from the other parent.

I don't disagree, but I think Kat could achieve a better outcome by not asking this at all.  My guess is that if Kat asks her daughter not to share private things, that info gets back to PDxH, he gets his drama feed by knowing he got under Kat's skin, and the interrogation gets escalated even if Kat's daughter refuses to answer his questions.  Adult or not, she's caught in the middle between respecting Mom's wish for privacy and upsetting Dad by not answering his questions.

If you just let it go and don't worry about him having information about you, it fizzles out.  Like PL said, what is he really going to do with the knowledge of your kitchen layout anyways?  Worst case scenario is he criticizes you behind your back for not going with his decision to remove the wall.  The only response you need to have for that is that you made a different choice and wanted to do it your way.

The unfortunate reality for those of us that share children with PDex's is that the PD is in our life from here on out, no matter how you slice it.  They're going to have information about you one way or another.  We can (and should) withhold important info that they could do something with (like financial info or health concerns), but you can't completely eliminate their ability to snoop.  So, I think the best thing you can do is let it go.  They can have information, but it doesn't mean that they get any real estate inside your head.

[Whiteheron]

Ugh. I am also having issues with DS17 spying on me and reporting back to his dad. I am well aware he is rewarded for this, but I am at a loss on how to stop it. If I ask the kids not to tell xH things, then they would counter with "so I have to keep secrets from dad?"  which I'm not asking for, but it's not any of xH's business where I store the ibuprofin (and yes, that was put into an affidavit just last month... ).
In my case, xH is looking for anything and everything he can use against me in court, even though the divorce is final. The fact that DS's medications are locked up (DS was "in crisis" last year), the fact that DD keeps her room messy...that kind of stupid stuff ends up in an affidavit or a letter from his L. xH has always spied on me, but now he's recruited DS to do it for him. I don't believe DS knows what his dad is doing with this information. My every action, my every word is ending up in documents that go to the court.

I really don't want xH having any information about me. I just want to be left alone. If it was just so he could make fun of me with his gf, or attempt to spread rumors, that's one thing...but to try to use it against me in court? Thankfully it didn't work this time, but with him there will always be a next time. He can't help himself. I can't act like I don't care if I have to continually respond to his affidavits. It's so frustrating.

[pushit]

Whiteheron - Just curious, what do your lawyer and the courts say about things like where the ibuprofen is stored and that your daughter's room is messy?  Those issues are completely frivolous - a 17 year old can buy OTC meds themselves so it doesn't matter where you store them, and who cares if your daughter's room is messy, most kids' rooms are messy.  Based on my experience, accusations like that wouldn't even be heard by a judge.  They have much bigger issues to worry about in other cases.  My lawyer would laugh if he received a letter like this from my exPDw's lawyer and dispense with it in a quick email response.  Is your ex actually gaining any momentum by doing these things, or is it just to harass you?

[Whiteheron]

pushit - He put it in his answering affidavit (it's so confusing), so we were not allowed to respond. It turns out the judge didn't read any of it, her clerk did and found it irrelevant to what xH was asking for (more time with DD), so I am not sure what they would have said.

If it's in a letter, we usually ignore, but if it's in an affidavit, we are usually required to respond. Since we were not allowed to respond to his last one, I fully believe he took a "scorched earth" policy and put as much insane/hurtful/insulting tripe in there that he could. As if he needed to lash out at me for some unknown reason. That he recruited DS in this effort is what really got to me.

What he gained was court ordered family counseling.

[pushit]

whiteheron - Sorry to hear you're being forced into family counseling.  I can relate to the incredible frustration when the professionals involved simply see this as a situation where two people cannot get along, instead of understanding that one party is creating 99% of the drama.  My kids' T has suggested we get co-parenting counseling together since we obviously don't get along, all I can do is politely smile and try to change the conversation.  Been there, done that with several years of marriage counseling...